Trying to get my 3rd Class Medical with prior substance abuse showing up and no legal trouble

Alex277877

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Alex277877
Hey guys how's it going? I am in the process of getting my pilots license. I have to solo soon and went today for my 3rd class medical exam. I failed it which I was thinking I was going to. I had a drinking problem in the past. I never got into any legal problems just drank too much and sought out help on my own. I did an intensive outpatient program at a place in my town. I completed the program and haven't drank any thing since October 15, 2019 which is almost 8 months. I actually never want to drink again. They failed me because of the prior treatment I had received. I was not court ordered to go there I did it all on my own for a better life. My question I guess is what is the next steps. I want to get them all the documentation I can for them. Does anyone have any resources I can check out. Has anyone else had this issue?

Thank you for your time and the info
 
One of the docs hopefully will chime in, but there are other people in similar situations, try the search function to see what you are in for.
 
It really matters not that you didn't end up with criminal charges. This is not about legalities.

You're in for a long wait if you had an AME who just deferred you and dumped your paperwork into the immense Joklahoma city backlog.

While you're waiting you can start pulling together some of the paperwork:
All the paperwork on your treatment
Any subsequent efforts on your part.
Ten years worth of driving history for any place you've lived showing that you indeed didn't have any DUI, etc...

I suspect you'll end up needing to find a HIMS AME. They FAA will want psychological testing and a review by one of the neuropsychs they have vetted. You're also likely going to need to get into an alcohol testing program.
 
This is a cut and paste item I have when another airmen who "was about to solo", stopped by our humble forum for advice on his alcoholic background.

While he had 2 incidents, much of what is here also applies to folks who have just a single incident. So hopefully this will help @Alex277877 and others.

------------------------------------------

That you have on record two incidents where you were arrested for DUI events, that is big thing that the FAA is going to want to know about. And they will want to know everything about you and alcohol.

And it isn’t just those single points in time. They want to know SIGNIFICANTLY more about your overall physical and psychological makeup that got you there and allows you to get there.

You tell us here about two incidents where you are caught by law enforcement. But what about all of the other times where your BAC was in the legally drunk spectrum, but you didn't have any encounters with law enforcement?

And keep in mind, this isn't about your ability to "hold your liquor", but that something inside is wanting alcohol, and because you have developed a tolerance level, you need to drink more in order to obtain the pleasure effects. So there may be some level of addiction going on, even if it is low.

The FAA acts as a warden to prevent individuals that have developed a tolerance for medium to high alcohol limits from obtaining and exercising pilot privileges. So for individuals such as yourself, the ball will be placed squarely in your court to prove beyond shadows of doubt that you are willing to prove you are worthy of flying privileges by doing everything they will ask of you.

The letter you are going to get regarding your deferred medical certificate will have the specific details of what the FAA wants. If you search through various pilot forums, such as the Red Board of AOPA and the blue one for Pilots of America, and you will see that the requirements to satisfy the FAA will include

  • A $9000 to $12,000 budget to pay for they various things the FAA will require of you. This includes the direct costs of exams as well as the travel costs to the different professionals whom you need to see during this journey
  • A neuro cognative psychological screen of extreme depth that only a very few HIMS psychologists can administer, paid for out of your pocket. Health insurance is unlikely to cover this costs. These very few HIMS psychologists are not publicly listed and you can only see them by referral of the Senior HIMS AME's
  • Direct sponsorship with a Senior HIMS AME, to whom you report to frequently and to whom you must demonstrate you are doing what is required to earn the medical certificate. There are very, very few of these AME’s, so plan onfrequent travel to see the one who is working your case. A list of the HIMS AME's can be found on the FAA.gov website
  • 90 days of intensive alcohol dependency treatment. This will likely be in the form of in-patient treatment.
  • 100% sobriety and abstinence from all alcohol. Wine with girlfriend and beer or shots with buddies is now verboten, für immer, for ever, zauvijek, pour toujours, aeternum!!
  • Documented routine attendance with alcohol dependency meetings (think Alcoholics Anonymous or similar), and this could be for a significant amount of time.
  • Many, many random pee in the cup whiz quizzes all documenting you are remaining 100% sober
  • And much, much more.
All of this must be done in exacting detail for you to be granted a Special Issuance medical. Only after continued proven 100% sobriety for a long period of time will you be allowed back into the normal issuance group.

Reading this and then saying back to us, “but I am not an alcoholic, I do not have a drinking problem” is an incorrect response.

That you have two DUI events is a strong indicator that, per the FAA standards, there is a problem.

The correct response is saying, “fine, I have a problem. Let’s get with meeting the requirements and make this thing happen.”

Humble and humility wins the day over arrogance and unwillingness to accept and change.

((and before anyone starts jumping on my head about my list, these are details developed from listening to Dr. Bruce Chien help others in this same predicament. I know many of you have high respect for him, so be kind in your critiques))

------------------------------------------

"But I did what the judge asked (or my attorney advised) and my DUI incident or incidents have been expunged or reduced to not being a minor felony or major misdemeanor associated with alcohol"

"But my situation didn't
escalate to where charges were filed against me."

Do not confuse criminal law with the FAA's administrative law. The DUI events will ALWAYS remain on your records. In the FAA's view, no items, even ones you were told were expunged, are every truly gone. The fact they happened, and are discoverable in your background check, still matters to the FAA.

The preamble to the question you answered was "HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE...." which for you means, yes, it did happen, and yes you will still be held accountable for these events by the FAA. And must ALWAYS answer Yes to the appropriate block on MedXpress Question 18.
 
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@Alex277877 .... another bit of good advice....

You need to seek out a Senior HIMS AME to provide you the guidance to get this done.

Do not try to do this alone.​

If you truly wish access to the skies, the cost of obtaining the right advocate and sponsor is very worth all the dollars you are going to be spending to make it happen.

Without the right guidance and advocate, you're going to waste lots of money and time that could have been better spent obtaining quality flight training.
 
How do you find a HIMS AME?

This list should help get you started: https://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/media/HIMS INDEPENDENT MEDICAL SPONSORS.pdf

But do note the following:

  • The closest one to your physical location may not be the right one for you because
  • They aren't accepting new cases, or
  • Their specialization as a Senior HIMS AME isn't the one you need.
  • Travel to the right HIMS AME may be a requirement. So be ready for the time and expense of travel and many trips to make certification happen.
 
So did I screw my self somehow by telling the doctor about the prior problems. I didn’t want to lie and then have it bite me in the ass in the long run and have it always hovering over my head. I could have went to a doctor that didn’t have access to those records but like I said I am trying to do things right and not get into any legal trouble in the long run.

It really matters not that you didn't end up with criminal charges. This is not about legalities.

You're in for a long wait if you had an AME who just deferred you and dumped your paperwork into the immense Joklahoma city backlog.

While you're waiting you can start pulling together some of the paperwork:
All the paperwork on your treatment
Any subsequent efforts on your part.
Ten years worth of driving history for any place you've lived showing that you indeed didn't have any DUI, etc...

I suspect you'll end up needing to find a HIMS AME. They FAA will want psychological testing and a review by one of the neuropsychs they have vetted. You're also likely going to need to get into an alcohol testing program.
 
Has anyone else had this issue?
As you can see by the response above (and about to happen below) yours is not the only time this has happened......

I encourage you to page back through this subform and read the other threads. Eventually you will have a more complete picture on what the FAA wants out of you and how to go about it.
 
Thanks for the help. I will search the forum and see what all I have to do. I’ll try to find a HIMS AME as well.
 
So did I screw my self somehow by telling the doctor about the prior problems. I didn’t want to lie and then have it bite me in the ass in the long run and have it always hovering over my head. I could have went to a doctor that didn’t have access to those records but like I said I am trying to do things right and not get into any legal trouble in the long run.
You got bit in the buttocks by the "I didn't know what I didn't know".

Honestly reporting your incident was the correct move. Unfortunately, now that the bell has been rung, you have a journey ahead of you to deal with it.


Don't be completely disheartened. There are many pilots (and a few PoA members) who have done this journey successfully and are now flying. Hopefully you'll find their stories when you review through past threads. Even better, perhaps one or more might see this thread and share their story.
 
So did I screw my self somehow by telling the doctor about the prior problems. I didn’t want to lie and then have it bite me in the ass in the long run and have it always hovering over my head. I could have went to a doctor that didn’t have access to those records but like I said I am trying to do things right and not get into any legal trouble in the long run.
Your first mistake was going in for the medical.
Your CFI should have gone over the medical form with you and explained everything before you went in for the medical.
But this is not unusual. Far too many (most?) CFIs don’t understand the implications of question #18. Its not an issue of privacy, no need to tell the CFI anything, but its the opportunity for you to consider the next step before visiting the AME.
 
Well, my case is not near as “deep” as yours and I’ll tell you where I’m at. I don’t have a problem, never did. No issues. What i did have was an SSRI (anxiety med) that I disclosed. It was situational anxiety and I chose to discontinue...however, because I disclosed I had to get the HIMS Psych exam. That’s when the fun really started. While I never had a drinking issue, I did drink frequently enough to raise a biomarker when the psych tested for it. Again, alcohol was never even a thought during this process. So now I get to be labeled as alcohol abuse....14 random pee tests over 12 months...had to fly to Chicago to meet a HIMS AME (fantastic doc), and sit and wait for Oklahoma to decide my fate. 7 months and counting since my initial AME exam...and no news in sight. Will likely have a special issuance with monitoring....if I decide to wait for the FAA to actually do their job. At the moment I have not given up, but I’m almost 40 years old and the lure of flying is losing its luster after dealing with this garbage. IF you really want it, it can be had....but good luck. Plenty of good advice on here... best I can give to start would be as someone else said, find a GOOD HIMS AME...and listen to his word. They will be your best ally through this process. Good for you for recognizing you had a problem and getting help. Unfortunately the FAA sees that strength as weakness and you’re now on the naughty list
 
So did I screw my self somehow by telling the doctor about the prior problems. I didn’t want to lie and then have it bite me in the ass in the long run and have it always hovering over my head. I could have went to a doctor that didn’t have access to those records but like I said I am trying to do things right and not get into any legal trouble in the long run.

You were honest, you could have lied, someday it would have probably bitten you in the butt. Keep doing it the right way, more difficult, but it'll be worth it and you won't have to spend a lifetime or a career worrying about it.
 
Thanks for the info so far on the situation. Are any of you guys from PA? There are only 2 HIMS HME's in PA. 1 in Williams Port and the other in Pittsburgh.
 
Thanks for the info so far on the situation. Are any of you guys from PA? There are only 2 HIMS HME's in PA. 1 in Williams Port and the other in Pittsburgh.
There is a list of HIMS AMEs in the FAA.gov website
 
Just a question. Could I get a sport pilots license for now? From what I'm reading I could still fly solo and have a passenger and just need a drivers license. I guess I would have to buy or rent someone's light sport plane to finish training, but at least I could still fly by myself or with someone in the mean time until I can get all these tests done to get my class 3.
 
So did I screw my self somehow by telling the doctor about the prior problems. I didn’t want to lie and then have it bite me in the ass in the long run and have it always hovering over my head. I could have went to a doctor that didn’t have access to those records but like I said I am trying to do things right and not get into any legal trouble in the long run.

You didn't screw yourself. You complied with a federal requirement. There will be a lot of requirements that you have to comply with when flying an aircraft that you could probably get away with "cheating" if no one was looking. Lying, cutting corners, bending or more accurately breaking the rules will eventually lead to really bad places in the aviation world.

As for how you answered the question...had you opted to leave out those details...and a subsequent investigation uncovered your undisclosed medical history, you could be found to have committed falsification and be stripped of your pilot certificates...ie not a temporary grounding.

Had you decided later that You wished to disclose your medical history after intentionally not disclosing it, you'd be looking at hiring an attorney to broker a voluntary disclosure. It would be a big mess. Better you be truthful from the start and work through the issue.
 
Just a question. Could I get a sport pilots license for now? From what I'm reading I could still fly solo and have a passenger and just need a drivers license. I guess I would have to buy or rent someone's light sport plane to finish training, but at least I could still fly by my self in the mean time until I can get all these test done to get my class 3.
Not at this point. You applied for a medical certificate that will eventually be denied if you are unable to provide the necessary medical evidence to prove that you're not a risk. This is why everyone suggests doing research or consulting with an AME before submitting to a part 67 medical examination. If you never apply for a medical certificate, it is possible to fly under sport pilot rules (provided you don't have a medical condition that prevents you from safely operating an aircraft).
 
...Good for you for recognizing you had a problem and getting help. Unfortunately the FAA sees that strength as weakness and you’re now on the naughty list
I think of the FAA as being a "hypochondriac by proxy," because they tend to assume the worst if there's any uncertainty. Sometimes they're right, but judging by what we read on here, when they're wrong they cause an awful lot of grief for people.
 
I think of the FAA as being a "hypochondriac by proxy," because they tend to assume the worst if there's any uncertainty. Sometimes they're right, but judging by what we read on here, when they're wrong they cause an awful lot of grief for people.

They are definitely causing me a ton of grief after trying to better my life and for being honest.
 
Not at this point. You applied for a medical certificate that will eventually be denied if you are unable to provide the necessary medical evidence to prove that you're not a risk. This is why everyone suggests doing research or consulting with an AME before submitting to a part 67 medical examination. If you never apply for a medical certificate, it is possible to fly under sport pilot rules (provided you don't have a medical condition that prevents you from safely operating an aircraft).

No-one gave me any guidance before I was thrown into this mess
 
Nobody was obligated to give you advice B4 you acted.
Think about it: not realizing that this would have repercussions and AME-ing without a consult first gives you a sense that you didn’t have B4 as to the seriousness of Alcohol. Even sober, “alcohol brain” made you do that. It’s really INSIDIOUS sh-t

so the first helpful thing I can ask....”can you substantiate the claim of sobriety for the 8 months...eg:
do you have a AA sponsor who can testify.
Are you in a job in which they random your urine?

See, you have the FAA diagnosis of alcohol dependency as you went to treatment and the rehab facility had to make the case for it, to get it paid for. You saved you life. You wouldn’t have been able to hide the $20,000 footprint of that....

So, the question (even if you can prove sobriety) is recovery, which is different from just Sobriety and “white knuckling” on. Recovery is in between your ears! (Not in your mouth, where sobriety resides).

FAA is not interested in certifying the dependent who are (1) not plainly (in between the ears) in recovery, which of course requires as a pre-condition, sobriety...(2) not knowledgable enough about the structure of recovery to run your own lifetime recovery program.

look up some posts on this site by ”Volitition”...you might get some insight.

Can you without looking it up, for example, describe AA’s “step 4 (of 12)?”
 
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I think of the FAA as being a "hypochondriac by proxy,"
I love that term. It also clouds their thinking, from my experience. There was a brief period of time when they started to improve their psychiatric condition, but they seem to have relapsed.
 
I am from Eastern PA. I flew to Chicago to see Dr Bruce. Well worth the trip for his knowledge set on the topic.
 
No-one gave me any guidance before I was thrown into this mess

Unfortunately many CFIs treat this casually and do not realize the present FAA aeromedical certification process is a minefield of potential gotchas and Catch-22s.

The standard advice from CFIs to their students now should really be to do a consult with an AME before making the application go live.

As Dr. Chien notes, you can make this happen if truly in recovery. It will take some time and money though.

I will also note that there are a fair number of people who when they find themselves in this situation decide to go and learn to fly gliders first. You can fly these without a medical as long as you truly are in recovery and can self certify that you are safe.

The time and effort you spend can be incorporated into the rating for powered planes as an add-on later when you have your medical.

Also, learning to fly gliders is a very good way to learn how a set of wings and controls handles in the air.
 
My CFIs were young kids in perfect health for whom the medical was a trivial nuisance at most. It never would have crossed their minds that it might be difficult for others.
 
My CFIs were young kids in perfect health for whom the medical was a trivial nuisance at most. It never would have crossed their minds that it might be difficult for others.

Yes, when I first started flying I was told by an instructor that if you are breathing you can get a medical. My primary instructor pulled me aside and said that his father had just been rejected for a heart issue, but as long as I was healthy it should be no problem, it wasn't, but that was 30 years ago, some instructors were still getting it wrong.
 
My CFIs were young kids in perfect health for whom the medical was a trivial nuisance at most. It never would have crossed their minds that it might be difficult for others.
This is why when I talk with aspiring beginners, I show them how to find The medical history part of MedXpress and counsel them that if anything is marked yes, they need to hold off going to the AME until they learn everything about that item that makes the FAA alarm bells go off. As well as what, if anything, needs doing in advance to make the process go smoothly
 
Just a question. Could I get a sport pilots license for now? From what I'm reading I could still fly solo and have a passenger and just need a drivers license. I guess I would have to buy or rent someone's light sport plane to finish training, but at least I could still fly by myself or with someone in the mean time until I can get all these tests done to get my class 3.
I don't want this to seem like all AMEs in PA are bad. I just have no experience with them so do your own research but I'll tell you for my ADHD, I've gone with Dr. Tordella in Atlantic City. 30 years of experience, former TWA and Air Force pilot. Very straight to the point. He may seem a little harsh or blunt but don't take it that way. He tells you EXACTLY what you need to know.
 
Hey guys how's it going? I am in the process of getting my pilots license. I have to solo soon and went today for my 3rd class medical exam. I failed it which I was thinking I was going to. I had a drinking problem in the past. I never got into any legal problems just drank too much and sought out help on my own. I did an intensive outpatient program at a place in my town. I completed the program and haven't drank any thing since October 15, 2019 which is almost 8 months. I actually never want to drink again. They failed me because of the prior treatment I had received. I was not court ordered to go there I did it all on my own for a better life. My question I guess is what is the next steps. I want to get them all the documentation I can for them. Does anyone have any resources I can check out. Has anyone else had this issue?

Thank you for your time and the info

Hi, I am in the same boat. How did things go? Were you able to get your 3rd class? Hope so! If you have time, could you explain your path? Thanks
 
Hi, I am in the same boat. How did things go? Were you able to get your 3rd class? Hope so! If you have time, could you explain your path? Thanks
According to the information on his profile page, he hasn't been back to this forum in almost a year, so he probably won't see your question.
 
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