Tree? Fife?

TREE FIFE FOWER NINER predate ICAO for a long time. Military origins.

Before you talk about how this dates from crappy radio days, understand that the aviation VHF radio is still the same crappy full-carrier AM system with compatibility with old telephone equipment that we were using over a half century ago.
 
I don't think anyone disputed military origins or AM radios. It's still a byproduct of crappy comms.
 
Captain said:
I don't think anyone disputed military origins or AM radios. It's still a byproduct of crappy comms.
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I thought your comment that "radios used to blow" implied they don't anymore. They still blow. About the only thing I can say about my modern radio is it's a bit easy to tune the frequencies in and it sucks far less power. Other than the absence of the whine from the oscillator (dynamotor, T-power, vibrator) necessary to generate the vacuum tube voltage, the audio quality hasn't changed much.
 
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FM would be better and digital better still, but they're way better now (VHF) than they used to be. Maybe it's just we have more transmitters or we fly higher...whatever, folks don't strain to hear like they used to.

And that straining to understand is what led to the phonetic pronunciation table. (that and the colorful phrases you know enlisted folks made up for the letters until it was standardized)
 
Hoid tree on toidy toid en toid since forevah.
 
murphey said:
I've never heard any of the DEN controllers use tree or fife. Niner, quite often. At home field, we got one pilot who insists on "tree" all the time. Not even the retired military around here or the controllers, use tree or fife.
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I agree about the DEN controllers. In fact, I rarely hear controllers using 'tree' or 'fife'. When I do, I think they must be trainees who are trying to go by the book because someone is looking over their shoulder.
 
I have two 9's in my tail number and use niner all the time...so much so I have to consciously think NOT to say niner in casual conversation!
 
flyingron said:
TREE FIFE FOWER NINER predate ICAO for a long time. Military origins.



Before you talk about how this dates from crappy radio days, understand that the aviation VHF radio is still the same crappy full-carrier AM system with compatibility with old telephone equipment that we were using over a half century ago.
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What specific radio technology would you like to switch to that will perform better than AM in the aviation environment?

(This should be good... If you're going to call something crappy, you have an alternative in mind, right?)

By the way, folks should keep in mind SSB on HF is still in significant use in aviation. The pronunciation stuff covered both AM and SSB Comm needs.

Shawn said:
I have two 9's in my tail number and use niner all the time...so much so I have to consciously think NOT to say niner in casual conversation!
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We've always been "Seven Niner Mike"... It's even the name of the LLC. Niner serves a purpose.

I've always been more aware of the whole "one zero thousand" vs "one one thousand" and the improper shortening to "ten thousand" and "eleven thousand" that has caused numerous documented close calls, than problems with Niner, Tree, or Fife which have seen almost no problems documented over the years.
 
Everybody hates AM until they're using something else and can't break squelch or find even a weak carrier. AM has its place due to simplicity and reliability. The only way we'd find AM and SSB disappearing would be if we went entirely SATCOM, but that's be cost prohibitive and would bring its own bag of problems.
 
"Tree thousand" just sounds weird. I once heard a controller slipping into dialect and saying "tree tousant."

Kinda like the guy and his wife on Waikiki Beach, arguing about the pronunciation of the name of the state. She said it was "Hawai'i"; he argued the 'w' should properly be pronounced like a 'v'. He said "Tell you what. We'll ask this guy over here. Sir, how do you pronounce the name of this state?"

Without hesitation the stranger answered, "Havai'i."

"Thank you very much," the man said as he shot an 'I told you so' glance to his wife.

"You velcome!"

:D
 
Next topic of argument....how do you pronounce Quebec?
 
timwinters said:
See captain's post #3...there's no argument to be had on that one...
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Ahem, my post number tree.

house-number-3-in-white-on-a-tree-trunk-EJW15K.jpg
 
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Had this fresh in my mind yesterday:

"Experimental 678, squawk 5333, remain clear of the SFRA, altimeter 3017"

"678 squawking Barney Forest, wilco."




No reply, didn't bat an eye, crickets, I tell ya'.

He must be subscribed to this thread. :rolleyes:
 
WTF, under what authority does ATC have to tell you to stay out of the SFRA.. The class B maybe but the SFRA?
 
catmandu said:
Had this fresh in my mind yesterday:

"Experimental 678, squawk 5333, remain clear of the SFRA, altimeter 3017"

"678 squawking Barney Forest, wilco."




No reply, didn't bat an eye, crickets, I tell ya'.

He must be subscribed to this thread. :rolleyes:
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Ha! Barney Forest! :lol:
 
flyingron said:
WTF, under what authority does ATC have to tell you to stay out of the SFRA.. The class B maybe but the SFRA?
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I get it all the time as I pop off Bay Bridge and make first contact climbing out of the pattern, pointed at DCA and only 3-4 miles from the SFRA border. No big deal, normally after entering the squawk it takes only 30 seconds or so before I get "Experimental 678, transponder observed, proceed on course, remain clear of the class bravo airspace."
 
That wasn't SUPPOSED to happen.
 
Can't say I've ever heard 'tree' or 'fife', but hear 'niner' probably 70% of the time.

I do hear other abbreviations regularly, namely 'pop' for papa and 'fox' for foxtrot.
 
I hear the controllers at KAPA use 'tree' and 'fife' all the time, but it's not 100%. Just yesterday I heard a center controller say them that way.

I'd say the vast majority of controllers say those numbers the normal way - plus niner. I never say "tree" or "fife" because it's not any more intelligible than "three" or "five" and it sounds stupid.

I don't know the reason for "niner" either. Sounds like some silly WW2 throwback. Beats me. I don't think I say "niner" 100% of the time. Like if I'm told "Descend and maintain niner thousand" I'll read back "down to nine" or something. Or I'll check on as "level nine thousand" I think but I don't really notice. It's amazing I've survived this long.
 
ettsn said:
Can't say I've ever heard 'tree' or 'fife', but hear 'niner' probably 70% of the time.
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I bet this has to do a lot with locality.

Around here in TX, I hear Austin Approach, Houston Approach and Regional Approach (Dallas) use "tree" and "fife" every time. I don't hear the "little" class D towers use it. It could depend on the supervisory chain, you know, who's in charge and which state supervisor will chew your azz out for not using proper prescribed phraseology. But that's just my personal WAG.
 
petrolero said:
I hear the controllers at KAPA use 'tree' and 'fife' all the time, but it's not 100%. Just yesterday I heard a center controller say them that way.

I'd say the vast majority of controllers say those numbers the normal way - plus niner. I never say "tree" or "fife" because it's not any more intelligible than "three" or "five" and it sounds stupid.

I don't know the reason for "niner" either. Sounds like some silly WW2 throwback. Beats me. I don't think I say "niner" 100% of the time. Like if I'm told "Descend and maintain niner thousand" I'll read back "down to nine" or something. Or I'll check on as "level nine thousand" I think but I don't really notice. It's amazing I've survived this long.
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Five and nine are nearly identical sounding under certain accents and poor Comm conditions. Niner is said to eliminate that. The "nnn" and "vvv" sounds don't work well with microphones and low quality Comm.

APA goes through bouts of the heavy pronunciation on and off since they're a training tower. Usually the newbies more than the regulars.
 
Hank S said:
But then again, in the Deep South we frequently add syllables to many words anyway, so I may just not have noticed.
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I didn't realize my first name was two syllables until I moved to the south.
 
I use 'niner' because nine is easy to mistake for five. I don't bother with 'tree' or 'fife'...using 'niner' takes care of the problem with five, and I never hear anybody mistaking three for anything else.

My tail # is 509CT so I get some use from niner...would get some from fife too if I thought it was useful.
 
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Bill Jennings said:
I didn't realize my first name was two syllables until I moved to the south.
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Hey, Be-ill! I'm pi-lawt tooooo. :D But my name has always had just the one syllable, here and up north. I don't hear many 'tree' or 'fife' on the radio, except some contrllera. Even then, more Forests than Deputies.
 
bullwinkle said:
I don't bother with 'tree' or 'fife'...using 'niner' takes care of the problem with five, and I never hear anybody mistaking three for anything else.
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How can 'niner' take care of the nine/five problem when someone is saying 'five'? How do you know that he wasn't saying 'nine' if it sounds like 'nine' to you?

The problem with 'three' is with 'three' and 'two'. You hear a lot of three/two mistakes with frequency changes.
 
Correct pronunciation often seems most obvious when a supervisor is in the cab or someone has an eye on the operations. :)
 
I hear 'niner' every now and then.

Here in Austin some of the controllers at KAUS use 'tree' and 'fife'.

A lot of the enlisted forward air controllers used 'tree' and 'fife' when I was an Air Force Liaison officer assigned to the Army at Fort Hood.
 
If pilots and ATC both stuck to the standardized phraseology, a lot of the ambiguity we experience on the airwaves today wouldn't exist. There have been quite a few well documented aviation disasters that had using non-standard phraseology as a contributing factor that lead to deaths.

The phraseology exists for a reason.
 
fiveninerzero said:
If pilots and ATC both stuck to the standardized phraseology, a lot of the ambiguity we experience on the airwaves today wouldn't exist. There have been quite a few well documented aviation disasters that had using non-standard phraseology as a contributing factor that lead to deaths.

The phraseology exists for a reason.
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Shouldn't your name be FifeNinerZero Mr. "Standard"?
 
RobertSubnet said:
So I am listening to Sporty's VFR Communications. According to Sporty's, phonetically three and five are pronounced "tree" and "fife" respectively. I fly out of a class D airport and have never heard these pronunciations. I was wondering if any one else pronounces three and five as "tree" and "fife?"
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I hear it all the time from ATC controllers. Not 100%, but probably better than half the time. It is how they're supposed to speak those numbers. Just like "niner" which you hear ALL the time.
 
Captain said:
Shouldn't your name be FifeNinerZero Mr. "Standard"?
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I thought the exact same thing when I read his post! :goofy:

As for me. I hear and use niner all the time. I seldom hear and never use fife or tree.

I raised my eyebrows when I read posts stating "I occasionally hear niner." Really? I wonder where these controllers are. I don't recall one ever not using it...but admittedly may not have noticed had he/she not.
 
Larry in TN said:
How can 'niner' take care of the nine/five problem when someone is saying 'five'? How do you know that he wasn't saying 'nine' if it sounds like 'nine' to you?

The problem with 'three' is with 'three' and 'two'. You hear a lot of three/two mistakes with frequency changes.
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If I'm using niner, it doesn't sound anything like five, so that confusion is eliminated on my transmissions. I can't control anybody else's transmissions.

I have never heard three and two confused.
 
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For S&G, I'll add a fun story to the thread to lighten up the mood.

Once at work, we had to call IT for some help and when I was spelling the machine identifier on the phone, I used the phonetic alphabet, example "Charlie-Victor-India-two-zero-niner". Our new co-worker asked "were you in law enforcement?" and before I could even think of an answer ("negative" jumped into my head, LOL), my other co-worker answered in a very disgruntled tone "no, he's a pilot". I was laughing the rest of the day! :D

Okay, another story, since it's you guys.
Again, calling IT at work, I got a not-so-bright one on the phone and he asked for a phone number that included 9. Logically, for clarity, I said it out loud as "niner". I was told "that's one too many". I repeated the number the same way and he was still coming up one too many. I inquired as to what he thought the number was and he put a 0 after the nine. I don't think my English is that bad that "niner" sounds like "nine-oh". :D
 
bullwinkle said:
If I'm using niner, it doesn't sound anything like five, so that confusion is eliminated on my transmissions.
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If you say 'five' how does the controller know that you would have said "niner" if you had been saying 'nine'? All he hears is what you said which may come across sounding like 'nine'.

I have never heard three and two confused.
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It happens all the time. I hear it several times per month.

It might help to remember that these conventions for radio phraseology were not developed with American GA pilots flying within a few hundred miles of their home talking to controllers who live within a few hundred miles of them who have a common language base and similar regional accents. They are designed for a worldwide aviation system where you often have controllers and pilots, neither of whom have English as their first language and who live in countries thousands of miles apart, conversing in English.

It is often embarrassing to hear how US controllers speak to foreign crews from non-English speaking countries. It's even worse listening to many US pilots in foreign countries who speak to Tokyo Control or Mumbai Radio as though they were a DFW-based pilot talking to Ft. Worth Center.

Last winter I was arriving PHL and heard a Speedbird (British Airways) pilot ask Philly Approach for the "QNH". The controller didn't understand what she was asking for. They went back and forth a couple of times and the controller finally figured out that she was asking for the altimeter setting (which is called 'QNH' in most places in the world). He then gave her the QNH in a very condescending manner emphasising that it was the 'ALTIMETER SETTING'. Embarrassing.
 
Trees and fifes remind me of Jethro Tull for some reason.
 
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