Treat minor filiform corrosion

We occasionally replace skin panels on airliners, it ain't rocket science, but it would cut into your profit margin if you bought an airplane just to flip.
 
GlennAB1 said:
We occasionally replace skin panels on airliners, it ain't rocket science, but it would cut into your profit margin if you bought an airplane just to flip.
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Ummm....excuse me, but, you're the only one here that works on airliners. Who cares? :confused:
 
Throughout this whole conversation, and concerning Tom's project, Tom hasn't ever mentioned the possibility of sheet metal replacement. I have to wonder what he uses a guide to make that determination.
 
This entire thread has become just another high school "anything you can do, I can do better" contest. The OP just wanted some simple advice to fix a simple condition on a 40 year old aluminum aircraft.
Go find a mechanic you trust and have him fix this, then go fly!
 
JAWS said:
This entire thread has become just another high school "anything you can do, I can do better" contest. The OP just wanted some simple advice to fix a simple condition on a 40 year old aluminum aircraft.
Go find a mechanic you trust and have him fix this, then go fly!
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Yup - My A&P in Oregon has seen the pics and will fix it in the next couple of weeks when I can get it up there. It's snowing today in Reno so we're all grounded here for now.
 
GlennAB1 said:
You're excused. Tom made a big deal about skin replacement, just pointing out its done frequently.
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That statement right there, tells us he has no idea that the cost of replacing a belly skin in most Pipers would total the aircraft.

So, you've decided I didn't go to A&P school. Gotta clue for ya.
 
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GlennAB1 said:
Throughout this whole conversation, and concerning Tom's project, Tom hasn't ever mentioned the possibility of sheet metal replacement. I have to wonder what he uses a guide to make that determination.
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That statement tells us you didn't know cessna's have a very good structural repair manuals.

Tell us which Skins on a Cessna 150 can not be replaced by manufacturing in the field.

See if you can look that up on the internet.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Thank you, thats very clear, then we shouldn't see any more post from you about A&P school general shop practices.
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had you been to a school you know what they were and how to treat corrosion with out using an AC as reference.
 
JAWS said:
This entire thread has become just another high school "anything you can do, I can do better" contest.
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seems like, but maybe you now know more about corrosion control than Glen does.

JAWS said:
OP just wanted some simple advice to fix a simple condition on a 40 year old aluminum aircraft.
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And that was given to him long ago.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Thank you, thats very clear, then we shouldn't see any more post from you about A&P school general shop practices.
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I'd like to know how you got your''s (if you have one) with out knowing what alodine looks like, or how to use it. or why you believe blending mild surface corrosion on a thin skin was a good idea, or why you believe scrapping corrosion off thin skin with a mircarta scrapper could be the proper method.

Really starting to believe you are not what you'd like us to believe you are.

Elementary things that most A&P's take for granted you don't seem to understand. The abilities the A&Ps have and the ability to make money repairing aircraft, what reference is to be used on return to service entries all seem foreign to you.
Then you think the belly skin of a Piper is frequently changed. shows you do not realize the whole interior must come out, a huge number of rivets must be removed with out ruining the substructure, then a new skin must be bought from Piper, and all the rivet holes picked up most of which are blind. In all my years as a A&P I've never seen it done.

Be very careful following Glen's advice folks, it could get real expensive for you.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Throughout this whole conversation, and concerning Tom's project, Tom hasn't ever mentioned the possibility of sheet metal replacement. I have to wonder what he uses a guide to make that determination.
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That pretty obvious to any A&P.
 
GlennAB1 said:
We've already determined that OP's aircraft maintenance manual states that AC 43.13 MUST be used for structural repair.
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Forget that,, Piper has a very good repair manuals, Corrosion treatment is very explicit but you can't look it up on the internet so you'd never know. Piper does not authorize the use of any Federal AC to supersede their instructions and they have a whole list o Service bulletins that supersede any Federal AC.

Result= your wrong again.

Folks,,, Piper sells subscriptions and updates to their data, Glen has no idea what's in any of pipers manuals.
Cessna is pretty much the same way.

Got questions?
http://www.piper.com/techpubs_files/Owner_Publications_Catalog.pdf

Scroll down to
"PuBLiCATiON AvAiLABiLiTy"

Cessna version
http://txtav.com/en/service/technical-support-publications
 
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Tom-D said:
Forget that,, Piper has a very good repair manuals, Corrosion treatment is very explicit but you can't look it up on the internet so you'd never know. Piper does not authorize the use of any Federal AC to supersede their instructions and they have a whole list o Service bulletins that supersede any Federal AC.

Result= your wrong again.

Folks,,, Piper sells subscriptions and updates to their data, Glen has no idea what's in any of pipers manuals.
Cessna is pretty much the same way.

Got questions?
http://www.piper.com/techpubs_files/Owner_Publications_Catalog.pdf
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Alright Tom, I followed your instructions and clicked on the piper link, which has this note on page one:
Note: See http://www.piper.com/technical-publications-documents/ for the most current version of this publication.

The service bulletins for any given aircraft model are there and available, just click on them. I found nothing that supersedes the piper maintanance manual that states: AC 43-13 must be used for structural repairs.

I did, however, find another interesting tidbit, SB 1048 - pertaining to Stainless Steel Control Cables, which I quote:

"1. It is mandatory that all control system cables be inspected and maintained as follows: a.) Per the procedures outlined in the aircraft inspection documents, maintenance manual, and FAA Advisory Circular (AC) 43.13, latest revision."

So, not only in Maintenance Manuals, but also in Service Bulletins, Piper mandates the use of AC 43.13
 
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Tom-D said:
I'd like to know how you got your''s (if you have one) with out knowing what alodine looks like, or how to use it. or why you believe blending mild surface corrosion on a thin skin was a good idea, or why you believe scrapping corrosion off thin skin with a mircarta scrapper could be the proper method.

Really starting to believe you are not what you'd like us to believe you are.

Elementary things that most A&P's take for granted you don't seem to understand. The abilities the A&Ps have and the ability to make money repairing aircraft, what reference is to be used on return to service entries all seem foreign to you.
Then you think the belly skin of a Piper is frequently changed. shows you do not realize the whole interior must come out, a huge number of rivets must be removed with out ruining the substructure, then a new skin must be bought from Piper, and all the rivet holes picked up most of which are blind. In all my years as a A&P I've never seen it done.

Be very careful following Glen's advice folks, it could get real expensive for you.
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I got my A&P after attending a very reputable college in Columbus, OH, after 4 years in the Air Force.

I'd like to know why you don't comprehend the need for blending corrosion (stress relieving) especially at the edge of a skin lap seam?

I didn't say anything about replacing skin on a OP's Piper. I was referring to your POS.

I bet there are OP's that believe fixing their aircraft correctly is not only important but paramount to airworthiness. Cost may not be a factor in keeping their baby pristine.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I got my A&P after attending a very reputable college in Columbus, OH, after 4 years in the Air Force.

I'd like to know why you don't comprehend the need for blending corrosion (stress relieving) especially at the edge of a skin lap seam?

I didn't say anything about replacing skin on a OP's Piper. I was referring to your POS.

I bet there are OP's that believe fixing their aircraft correctly is not only important but paramount to airworthiness. Cost may not be a factor in keeping their baby pristine.
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Shows you've never dealt with part 91 pilots, cost is primary. The insurance companies won't pay excessively either. and the insurance companies won't pay for corrosion repairs either.

Blending is not done on thin skins, simply unheard of in part 91, there simply not enough material. and is never recommended due to removal of the Al-Clad layer, but you don't comprehend what that is or why it was placed there.

4 year collage and the airfarce, says a lot of why you don't understand little aircraft.

I may have bought a POS, but it won't be when it leaves here.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I got my A&P after attending a very reputable college in Columbus, OH, after 4 years in the Air Force.
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You forgot to put how many years experience you have with Cessna and Pipers. ?
 
There are some very interesting points of view being "promoted".
What is that saying? "Caveat Emptor". Hopefully everyone will do their own research beyond what is "promoted " on the web and make choices they can live with, legally and morally.
Remember - the owner is responsible for keeping his aircraft airworthy.
 
Tom-D said:
Yeah Right:

1A3

Introduction Page - 2 Reissued: August 1, 1986

When did they switch to Pubs on CD..

Once more you can't understand the correct manuals.
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You, being the Piper/Cessna expert, surely must have the most current revision of that manual, right? How come you haven't posted a later revision on here? You have no trouble posting anything else. It's one page, you can't snap a picture of it? How many years experience do you have without using manuals?
 
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GlennAB1 said:
You, being the Piper/Cessna expert, surely must have the most current revision of that manual, right? How come you haven't posted a later revision on here? You have no trouble posting anything else. It's one page, you can't snap a picture of it? How many years experience do you have without using manuals?
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Thy do have copy rights ya know. or maybe you didn't.
Again you make stupid statements you have no idea about.
 
no one makes the paint listed in my S&M manual. Guess I am just out of luck. And why should I do the same process that caused the filform in the first place? You would think that coatings have progressed from 40 years ago.
 
yetti said:
You would think that coatings have progressed from 40 years ago.
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they have,, we didn't have the ura- coatings 40 years ago.
And we didn't have self etching primers 40 years ago either.
 
Tom-D said:
Thy do have copy rights ya know. or maybe you didn't.
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The general consensus here is; That is an answer of convenience if ever there was one. My co-worker, IA, says that older piper manuals aren't copywrited, as is evident by the one I linked. Personally, I don't recall seeing a manufacturer copywrite on any manuals. The Boeing manuals at work are only copywrited by my employer, and that's only come about since they've been available online. I have Gulfstream Maintenance Manuals that aren't copywrited. My IA friend also says; He believes some current Piper manuals might have some specific repairs in them, but he believes they still reference to use AC 43.13 for repairs not covered in the manual.
 
yetti said:
my S&M manual
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Wow. And people complain about ME getting off topic.

But, yea, the FAA's paperwork fetish is a real problem. My airplane flys just fine without it - yours would too.
And, speaking of horrible awful things, I painted the inside of my rims with stuff from the boat store (rattle can zinc chromate and OMC color matched top coat). It works.
 
Gonna add a whole new angle here,

There is always belly aching about steel tools used on aluminum... exactly how do all the holes in sheets, castings, and forgings get there so that rivets, bolts etc (aluminum, steel, and corrosion resistant steel varieties) can be inserted into said holes to join stuff? Ever heard of an aluminum drill bit? Me neither.
 
bnt83 said:
Gonna add a whole new angle here,

There is always belly aching about steel tools used on aluminum... exactly how do all the holes in sheets, castings, and forgings get there so that rivets, bolts etc (aluminum, steel, and corrosion resistant steel varieties) can be inserted into said holes to join stuff? Ever heard of an aluminum drill bit? Me neither.
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There are those here that do not realize the aluminum transfers to the steel/S steel. The softer material will always yield first. That's why we don't use lead bucking bars.
 
bnt83 said:
Gonna add a whole new angle here,

There is always belly aching about steel tools used on aluminum... exactly how do all the holes in sheets, castings, and forgings get there so that rivets, bolts etc (aluminum, steel, and corrosion resistant steel varieties) can be inserted into said holes to join stuff? Ever heard of an aluminum drill bit? Me neither.
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As has already been mentioned, corrosion will happen, we can only attempt to reduce and prevent it. This conversation is based on my opinion that using nonmetallic tools to address corrosion is a better idea than using a dissimilar metal. I still stand by that. I bought off an external fuselage skin repair on an MD-10 last night. The steel fasteners were required to be installed wet. Know what that means?
 
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