Transitioning to HSI - Any good tutorial recomendations?

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
Ref title, been using a heading indicator and VOR/GS indicator.

I want to start practicing my approaches in an Arrow PA-28, equipped with an HSI and Garmin VOR/LOC driven by GNS 530 & 430.

I got the Garmin simulator and pilot guides.

Haven't flown with an HSI yet. It's all been VFR in the Arrow so far.

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate all the helpful info folks share.
 
kontiki said:
Ref title, been using a heading indicator and VOR/GS indicator.

I want to start practicing my approaches in an Arrow PA-28, equipped with an HSI and Garmin VOR/LOC driven by GNS 530 & 430.

I got the Garmin simulator and pilot guides.

Haven't flown with an HSI yet. It's all been VFR in the Arrow so far.

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate all the helpful info folks share.
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It's just a simplified moving map. Honestly, if you already have a 430 and 530, and HSI is kind of redundant. I've flown with and without them, and haven't found them to add value if you have a moving map GPS. There are others that swear by them though.
 
I love HSIs. I haven't flown instruments without one in about five years. That said, they are stunningly simple. Focus on learning the 430/530 to the point of proficiency and the HSI will make sense when you start using it. Of course, if you want to practice with the HSI minus the GPS, there's always this site (the two nav heads can be set up as just about any modern nav receiver):

http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
 
When you can set up an HSI for a back course then you know you really understand them. ;)

(That's a joke...)
 
Before glass SVT was introduced the HSI was the hot ticket in situational awareness, now the aren't worth repairing most of the time. All it is is a CDI,GS, & DG all in one. The coolest thing about it is intercepting and tracking radials is simple using the lubber line on the CDI needle.
 
Teller1900 said:
I love HSIs.
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So do I. I've used one for years, way before anyone ever heard of a moving map. I don't even remember getting any instruction, per se, since they are so intuitive.
 
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Everskyward said:
So do I. I've used one for year, way before anyone ever heard of a moving map. I don't even remember getting any instruction, per se, since they are so intuitive.
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Yep, I put one in my Travelair long before moving map technology was invented.
 
Everskyward said:
So do I. I've used one for years, way before anyone ever heard of a moving map. I don't even remember getting any instruction, per se, since they are so intuitive.
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I can't imagine needing instruction in the basics either -- but if someone has never used one and is studying for the instrument written, that's something else.

Even with moving map displays, I think the HSI display is a useful backup in case the GPS or MFD display fails, and the fact of having the same information displayed in more than one format is nice too. I even like the RMI-like bearing pointers on my Sandel which can be selected to point to the next GPS waypoint, or the currently tuned VOR of either NAV receiver.

I really HATE flying holds with old-style CDIs. The HSI really helps my situational awareness after the second or third run around the racetrack.
 
You can buy redundant SVT for the price of having a redundant HSI. Except for the unlaced NSD vacuum driven unit, you can get a primary Aspen unit cheaper and eliminate the vacuum pump with a back up alternator.
 
The HSI takes all the thought out of it. Set your course and forget. Fly the needle.

A HSI overlayed on a moving map is very useful.
 
Big plus of an HSI, to me, is that it knows magnetic heading. If the system isn't slaved to a flux valve, aka magnetic azimuth detector, aka flux gate, there is no benefit at all.
 
Back in the day, an HSI and an RMI were all the rage (just make sure the 'suicide knobs' are properly positioned.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Big plus of an HSI, to me, is that it knows magnetic heading. If the system isn't slaved to a flux valve, aka magnetic azimuth detector, aka flux gate, there is no benefit at all.
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That's just it, to get a system with that functionality, you can buy an Aspen.
 
Sac Arrow said:
and haven't found them to add value if you have a moving map GPS. There are others that swear by them though.
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This statement sort of makes sense if you fly VFR only.
But in IFR flying HSI is really everything, this is your basic indispensable tool.

kontiki said:
Haven't flown with an HSI yet.
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There should be a simple HSI tutorial - simulator somewhere on internet.
 
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kontiki said:
Ref title, been using a heading indicator and VOR/GS indicator.

I want to start practicing my approaches in an Arrow PA-28, equipped with an HSI and Garmin VOR/LOC driven by GNS 530 & 430.

I got the Garmin simulator and pilot guides.

Haven't flown with an HSI yet. It's all been VFR in the Arrow so far.

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate all the helpful info folks share.
Click to expand...

Here's a sim

http://www.luizmonteiro.com/Learning_HSI_Sim.aspx
 
I wouldn't sweat it too much, a couple minutes in use with an instructor and it quickly becomes clear, it's not like you're learning something totally new, you're just combining things you already know.
 
Textual tutorial:

http://stoenworks.com/Tutorials/HSI, the complete.html

Video tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bgo4xCkHvY

In simplest terms, a HSI combines the functions of a DG (with heading bug) and a OBS/CDI/GSI in one unit. The primary differences between the separate instruments and a HSI are that the OBS's selected course indicator is replaced by the Course Pointer (usually a yellow arrow) and the CDI's needle is replaced by the center portion of the Course Pointer and it rotates with the heading card. Similarly the to/from flag is replaced by a pair of arrowheads at the center of the display that also rotate with the heading card.

Some key points:

With VOR or GPS as the nav source driving the CDI never "reverse senses". IOW no matter how you set things up (with the possible exception of an improperly installed "back course" switch) the CDI needle will always be deflected to the right when you are left of course and vice versa. This isn't the result of some magical electronic wizardry but rather the result of rotating the CDI needle with the heading card. You'd get the same effect if you could rotate the OBS/CDI you're used to so that the selected course matched your heading. For example if you were flying due north and the OBS was (mis)set to 180 but you rotated the CDI so it was upside down (i.e 180 at the top) the needle deflection would appear the same as if you set the OBS to 360 and mounted the CDI right side up.

This elimination of "reverse sensing" is a little different when displaying/tracking a LOC course because the HSI course pointer has no direct effect on the operation of the CDI needle. But the HSI still has an advantage in that as long as you set the course pointer to match the "front course" (inbound on an ILS or outbound on a Back Course) the rotation of the course pointer and CDI needle with heading will yield "normal sensing" allowing you to always "fly to the needle" to get back on course.

To repeat, with VOR or GPS the course pointer can be set for either plausible direction of a given radial or track and the needle sensing will always be correct but with a LOC you must set the head of the course pointer to the "inbound" course to get normal sensing.

When coupled to an autopilot a HSI offers some capabilities that aren't usually offered without one. One of these goes by a few different names but is commonly called NAV intercept. Simpler autopilots have only one intercept angle (usually 45°) and with those the autopilot will fly a heading that's 45° offset from the course pointer until the CDI (needle) comes off the peg. More sophisticated autopilots will follow the HDG pointer until the CDI unpegs and then "gracefully" transition to the CDI for guidance as the needle centers. Since the HDG bug is independently adjustable from the course pointer this allows you to use any heading you (or ATC) wants for the intercept.

Also note that in many cases the autopilot must be configured for back course operation when tracking a LOC signal away from the transmitter even though the needle deflection on the HSI appears "normal".
 
olasek said:
This statement sort of makes sense if you fly VFR only.
But in IFR flying HSI is really everything, this is your basic indispensable tool.
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No, it's your indispensable tool. I've flown IFR for years without one.
 
azure said:
Even with moving map displays, I think the HSI display is a useful backup in case the GPS or MFD display fails, and the fact of having the same information displayed in more than one format is nice too. I even like the RMI-like bearing pointers on my Sandel which can be selected to point to the next GPS waypoint, or the currently tuned VOR of either NAV receiver.
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An HSI, PFD, or MFD could fail (mechanical or electrical). Unless your aircraft already has an HSI, because it was the marvel of navigation at the time.............then it would make no sense "cost wise" to install a HSI, when a cheap handheld GPS (as backup) can do so much more. In reality, failure of the GPS system itself, is few and far between.

In our experimental kitbuilt/homebuilt world, you'll never see someone purchasing a new conventional HSI, in this day and age of glass. It's just too expensive, and does much less.

L.Adamson
 
The text description was good, but it's a hell of a lot easier to figure it out once you've seen one.

Just fire up any modern flight sim and find the panel that has an HSI on it and fly to/from VOR stations and Localizers. It's a lot easier to see why they're useful once you see them in action.

As other's have pointed out, they're a bit of a mechanical mess and often expensive to fix when they break.

Better to install something that simply displays a depiction of an HSI on a graphical screen these days rather than a real mechanical one. Aspen, Garmin, and even some dedicated ones... all probably better options than fixing one.
 
Sac Arrow said:
it's your indispensable tool.
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And all the pros' who fly IFR ...
This is exactly what I was saying, thanks for confirmation.
Show me a Boeing, an Airbus or any turbine powered aircraft without one.
Yes, you can fly without it, IFR, you can also paddle across Atlantic, not a recommended way of crossing ocean however considering altarnatives...

By the way, 430/530 very much feed HSI in a typical IFR cockpit arrangement, so if someone says that moving map someone makes HSI redundant or less attractive .. I seriously question aviation competence of such person.:rolleyes2:
 
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denverpilot said:
Better to install something that simply displays a depiction of an HSI on a graphical screen these days rather than a real mechanical one. Aspen, Garmin, and even some dedicated ones... all probably better options than fixing one.
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Better still to buy an airplane with all the avionics you want already installed. ;)

But yes, glass or a dedicated e-HSI has more utility than the mechanical variety, and fewer mechanical parts to break (though the electronics can break too, and fixing is probably even more costly -- I've not had that problem yet, knock on wood). All other things equal though, if I was comparing two airplanes with an eye to buy, one with a mechanical HSI and one with only conventional CDIs, the one with the HSI would get the edge.
 
olasek said:
And all the pros' who fly IFR ...
This is exactly what I was saying, thanks for confirmation.
Show me a Boeing, an Airbus or any turbine powered aircraft without one.
Yes, you can fly without it, IFR, you can also paddle across Atlantic, not a recommended way of crossing ocean however considering altarnatives...

By the way, 430/530 very much feed HSI in a typical IFR cockpit arrangement, so if someone says that moving map someone makes HSI redundant or less attractive .. I seriously question aviation competence of such person.:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

In the first place, the 430/530 is 1998 technology. Not exactly up to today's standards, by a mile. It's also a well known fact, that a typical glass Cessna 172 has more capability than many airliners in the nav & available information department. Moving maps really DO make the HSI redundant and less attractive. To suggest a lack of competence is going overboard. Just because the Pro's use to do it a specific way........doesn't impress me at all.

L.Adamson
 
L.Adamson said:
Moving maps really DO make the HSI redundant and less attractive.
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Except of course if you're departing runway 28 Curacao and the Tower instructs you "left turn after takeoff, join left downwind, intercept PJG radial 035 outbound, report radial and distance when crossing 3000ft".

The moving map is worth exactly zero in that case.
 
olasek said:
And all the pros' who fly IFR ...
This is exactly what I was saying, thanks for confirmation.
Show me a Boeing, an Airbus or any turbine powered aircraft without one.
Yes, you can fly without it, IFR, you can also paddle across Atlantic, not a recommended way of crossing ocean however considering altarnatives...

By the way, 430/530 very much feed HSI in a typical IFR cockpit arrangement, so if someone says that moving map someone makes HSI redundant or less attractive .. I seriously question aviation competence of such person.:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

No, they need SVT, HSI on top of that is only for convention, but it's there if you want it. HSI has been left behind.
 
You know one of the primary functions of the Space Shuttle was to provide the mapping for SVT? We spent a hell of a lot of money generating that database, you think that was for no good reason?
 
Shorrick Mk2 said:
Except of course if you're departing runway 28 Curacao and the Tower instructs you "left turn after takeoff, join left downwind, intercept PJG radial 035 outbound, report radial and distance when crossing 3000ft".

The moving map is worth exactly zero in that case.
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Here's how I would do this with a G1000 w/svt.

1) Brief moment of panic due to personal inexperience and an irrational fear of screwing up departures.
2) Set PJG as a GPS waypoint, push OBS and dial the radial. Use moving mag to confirm that the magenta line is where I expect it to be.
3) Put PJG in NAV 1. This will create a bearing pointer on the heading indicator that will point toward PJG and give me the distance. Look at the moving map to check that the bearing pointer is pointing where it should be. When I cross 3,000 feet, a quick look at the tail of the bearing pointer will be the radial and a little box under the heading indicator will give me the distance.
4) Turn to intercept the radial by putting the flight path marker into the magenta rectangles. Check with moving map that my position and direction on the moving map is the way it should be. Then a brief check w/HSI to make sure it's a straight line.

In this scenario, I would make extensive use of the moving map for situational awareness and very little use of the HSI.

I am a pretty inexperienced pilot so I have no idea if something is terribly wrong with this method, but that's how I would do it and I'm pretty sure it would work. I suppose I could also have the nearest VOR page on the MFD which would still display a moving map and it would give me exact bearing and distance when crossing 3,000 but my method is less complicated.
 
Thanks for some very useful links and the interesting conversation.

I feel I need to be able to intercept a radial, fly a hold on a VOR radial DME fix etc; and it's not going to kill me to do it. If I wasn't always in training, I'm not sure what excuse I'd have to fly. I do think it will open some carrier doors sooner or later as an avionics engineer though.

I worked on an around these things for years as an airline A&P without ever really understanding the less obvious differences between VOR, RMI, HSI etc.

On the topic of obsolescence; it probably all depends where you fly. A couple months ago, we got a call about some MD11/10 AMM procedures for checkout of the #2 DME not working (or something like that, it's hard to remember all the details on all these things).

First thought was that it's a legacy system, how much can we need it any way.

Someone contacted the fleet tech pilot and it turns out that we cannot dispatch for certain routes with it deferred.

Apparently, they have to have it for navigation along the coast of Mexico.

Again, I don't have all the details, it's not worth looking into. There is finite time and plenty of new and still unresolved issues to contend with.
 
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Wingsofglass said:
Here's how I would do this with a G1000 w/svt.

1) Brief moment of panic due to personal inexperience and an irrational fear of screwing up departures.
2) Set PJG as a GPS waypoint, push OBS and dial the radial. Use moving mag to confirm that the magenta line is where I expect it to be.
Click to expand...

If you have the database that is... the GPS I had didn't have the Caribbean database.
 
olasek said:
And all the pros' who fly IFR ...
This is exactly what I was saying, thanks for confirmation.
Show me a Boeing, an Airbus or any turbine powered aircraft without one.
Yes, you can fly without it, IFR, you can also paddle across Atlantic, not a recommended way of crossing ocean however considering altarnatives...

By the way, 430/530 very much feed HSI in a typical IFR cockpit arrangement, so if someone says that moving map someone makes HSI redundant or less attractive .. I seriously question aviation competence of such person.:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

Okay so Mr. G1000 trainee, where's your mechanical HSI on that thing?
 
olasek said:
Mechanical? Sorry I have no clue what's your point.


Who is 'they'?
No SVT in some of the latest jetliners like A380, 787, etc.
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Which still amazes me to no end. If AF447 had SVT they would have made it most likely.
 
olasek said:
I doubt it very much, who needs SVT over Atlantic? This is probably the last accident where SVT could have helped.
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The reason they crashed is the had no clue as to their situation, they did not recognize they were stalled, they saw numbers whiz zing by but they meant nothing to them, any of them. Watching themselves drop out of the sky may have been all it took. All that was required was one clue to snap them out of it and push the throttles back up once they fell below critical altitude. Had the throttles not been closed the plane would have recovered as it tried to do.
 
olasek said:
Mechanical? What for? HSI is there, non-mechanical.
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So, glass cockpits are OK, but if you only have a moving map GPS, you had better have an HSI installed.

Okay, you're right.
 
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