Training today sucked

[4RNB]

I need to change something, not sure what to do or if I am capable. Perspective and insight desired.

I have about 200 hours now. Did all IFR stuff at a school, was getting close to testing when I just needed to improve a little more for cfii sign off. His schedule was changing, my home needs were increasing, and I was getting burned out with four hours travel for two hour lesson three days a week. Took a few months off, schedule better. I’ve flown some vfr, visually practicing approaches. 97 written, have tried to keep up with knowledge, nobody questioning that part of things.

I am now doing an accelerated ifr class, today was day 4 of 6. 2+ hours of sim in am and same in the air each afternoon.

I have likely relied on my AP for leisurely flying. It sure is nice and easy. No more of that in training. I have had to re appreciate light controls on a well trimmed plane.

Approaches in sim and plane have received critique of slow scanning, not taking corrections out and losing myself looking at other things. Final segments I am trying to use rudder pedals for small corrections but have been warned I am doing too much and the DPE does not like being all over the place.

Hand flew in hard IMC today, was grateful for my instructor to tell me what to do next. Without the AP I had no chance to do anything but fly, at times not even doing well at that. I would not have lived through that flight solo or with family if I had to hand fly. I wanted to give up for a while.

flew back to base airport using AP and generally did okay, I would have lived and would have flown my family.

I think I am at the same plateau I was at before. It feels like crap.

I’m not sure how to get Better other than walk the edge over and over again with a cfii. Scan, interpret, control, all faster and better.

I am working hard, trying as best I know, but not passing muster. I’ll likely work out my time here with my cfii, but not sure what to do next.

what say you? Thanks

 

[Walboy]

What's your instructor's assessment? That person likely knows best.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I'm no CFI but the key for me is dialing in the glideslope with power and trim and then using more focus on lateral instead of vertical. Do you have power settings nailed into your brain? After that, small lateral corrections.

 

[4RNB]

What's your instructor's assessment? That person likely knows best.

yes, he said no checkride, need work on basic scan pattern at a faster rate, do lots of hand flying with precision.
Knowing to do a faster scan does not instantly translate into the action

 

[WDD]

A few thoughts:
1) You need to relearn some things perhaps. If a person sat on the couch for 6 months, then trained hard for 6 days, come marathon race day it's not going to work. You can't skip class all semester and try to learn calculus 6 days before the final. You've got to give your brain time to learn. Those that can do the Pilot 2 week crash course, or IFR 2 week course starting from ground zero - IHMO are the younger, just wired differently type of people - more the exception than the rule. Suggest continual training to get back to where you were and then push forward to get polished enough for the check ride.

2) Turn off the AP, fly with a SP just holding altitude and heading, climb and hold, descend and hold, turn while climbing, etc. Don't need to travel to your CFII for that, just get a local pilot who would go up for some free logable hours.

 

[Salty]

"scan at a faster rate"

Are you getting fixated on a particular instrument, or are you forgetting to scan? I'm guessing the first based on your post.

 

[4RNB]

"scan at a faster rate"

Are you getting fixated on a particular instrument, or are you forgetting to scan? I'm guessing the first based on your post.

In the imc today it was all over the map. I really do not know. I was overloaded. Nothing was staying where I thought I put it. I think the briefing had 20 it winds where we were flying. Then the flight got real long real quick.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

For this accelerated training, still a 2-hour commute each way (4 hrs commuting for each flight)?

What does the CFII suggest for next steps?

Is it your plane? Was this PIC? Sounds like more time in the plane with no AP will help (my $0.02 - I liked @WDD ’s idea with the safety pilot.

I don’t usually suggest SP before the rating because you can learn bad habits but is you focus on the scan with the basics (level, climb, descent, turns - no approaches etc.) I think it might help.

 

[4RNB]

Pitch bank

 

[4RNB]

For this accelerated training, still a 2-hour commute each way (4 hrs commuting for each flight)?

What does the CFII suggest for next steps?

Is it your plane? Was this PIC? Sounds like more time in the plane with no AP will help (my $0.02 - I liked @WDD ’s idea with the safety pilot.

I don’t usually suggest SP before the rating because you can learn bad habits but is you focus on the scan with the basics (level, climb, descent, turns - no approaches etc.) I think it might help.

no, the accelerated training is away from home. I flew my plane down.

I talked to one of my old instructors on the phone (Tools here) and he suggested basic flight pattern work focusing on pipper placement (center of attitude indicator). He talked about military W patterns, said there were 4 of them. If you all know specifics of good patterns to practice please let me know.

w1 was straight and level, then 1000 fpm climbs and descents, focusing on attitude for exact placement.
Ignore muscle memory, use visual memory
Make the sight picture perfect.

w2 involved climbs and turns, he thought 180, one min, 1000 fpm.

anyone know w3 and w4?

what other good ifr patterns to practice?


Darn, these are expensive lessons!

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

One other thought - did your first CFII let you use the AP?

You sound like where I was earlier in my training, and where I would likely be today having not taken instrument training in 14 years. I’m sure you’re doing much better than I would, but you see my point.

I remember at one point on the missed, partial panel, out of JVL (with a CFII candidate in the back watching!!!!) I just froze. I couldn’t tell which direction to turn and my response when questioned by ATC was “uhhhhhhhhhh turning uhhhhhhhhh . . . “

My CFI jumped on and apologized, saying we were practicing partial panel and said we were correcting course now.

He uncovered the AI and DG and I flew back home full panel. Crushing headache. Stomachs ache. Exhausted.

But it did eventually click. I can’t say how/why, but it did. Then I got laid off at work and never took the test.

I think you just need a handful more lessons.

 

[WDD]

Remember getting the ifr rating is almost a duplicate - if not more - of the training, time, and effort needed for a ppl.

 

[PaulS]

Don't know how to fix you, but I do know that you will know when you are ready. You need to persist and slog through this. Listen to your instructor, stop expecting perfection.

 

[Tools]

Ok, coming back a little.

W1 - all on same heading, 1000 fpm descent, one minute. 1000 fpm climb, one minute. Add one more cycle, 4 minutes total.

W2 - same thing but half std rate turn, or 4 minutes for a 360. Descending first 90 deg, then climbing, lather rinse repeat.

W4 - same as W2 but you reverse after 180 degrees. So a “s” turn with descents and climbs.

The W2 may have been a W3, there wasn’t 4 maneuvers when I went through.

We used the second sweep hand on an analog clock. Challenging but effective scan pattern builders.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Search for “pattern a” and “pattern b” that used to be in the IFH.

 

[Tools]

Oh ya... all constant airspeed.

you get graded by how ya look at the checkpoints. Every minute, should be at the right altitude, right speed, right heading.

 

[midlifeflyer]

yes, he said no checkride, need work on basic scan pattern at a faster rate, do lots of hand flying with precision.
Knowing to do a faster scan does not instantly translate into the action

It's really impossible to know what is happening without being in the cockpit watching but I think most people scan too fast. Move from instrument to instrument without ever seeing what it said or digesting what it means.

Story. I have no idea if it applies to you. I was a pretty new CFII and I got a call from someone for some recurrent training. The weird part was, he was great at partial panel but could not hold altitude and heading with a full panel. Watching him, I finally realized his eyes were darting all over the place, never resting on anything for more than a fraction of a second. I said, "Y'know, Rod Machado says there was a survey of airline pilots. They spend 80% of the time on the attitude indicator." He looked at me, and back at the panel. His eyes slowed down. I could see him using the AI to control the airplane and then glancing at the other instruments to confirm what he saw. Nailed it the rest of the flight.

I've seen similar stuff many times since. IMO, it's not about scanning faster. It's about scanning better.

 

[bflynn]

yes, he said no checkride, need work on basic scan pattern at a faster rate, do lots of hand flying with precision.
Knowing to do a faster scan does not instantly translate into the action

I'm no CFI either, but this is my take too. If basic control under hard IFR is the problem, the answer is to practice more. Practice is the way.

 

[WDD]

Training any better ?

 

[mandm]

Happens, I would say I have my favorite instruments that I rely on, and I always ignore the ball in the turn coordinator (not on purpose). I think with time once things become second nature you can add another task. Keep at it.

 

[WDD]

Another POV - it was a hike for me to get the rating - but I and so glad I got it. Night and day on when and where I can fly. The extra training has made me so much better (had a ways to go LOL).

It’s well worth it - more than you probably can appreciate at this time.

 

[Dave Arata]

If you unfamiliar with the oscar pattern, it may be worthwhile for you to practice it with a safety pilot. It's really great for helping staying ahead of the plane. Descents, climbs, turns, etc, all at a specific rate/time. You can even add reviewing checklists and mock ATC calls as you improve. It was one of my favorite exercises. Humbling at first, but is easy to see progress, however slow it may be. A good vid below:

 

[Daleandee]

If you unfamiliar with the oscar pattern, it may be worthwhile for you to practice it with a safety pilot. It's really great for helping staying ahead of the plane. Descents, climbs, turns, etc, all at a specific rate/time. You can even add reviewing checklists and mock ATC calls as you improve. It was one of my favorite exercises. Humbling at first, but is easy to see progress, however slow it may be. A good vid below:

I really like Jason's videos. He generally gives more training info in a few minutes then others give in a series ...

 

[4RNB]

Training any better ?

No not better but there is a path forward!

I have not compared notes with others that have received flight training, but overall I feel like I have had more of a slog to even receive flight instruction at all. Doing the accelerated, and paying up for it, was my attempt to just be done with the instrument rating. Coming back home, sensing that I needed to train real conditions more, it was tough to know how I would accomplish more flight with a CFII.

Through discussions on FB, I've learned of a local airport with a new to them instructor, 5000 hours. We've met, are set to fly next VFR day to get a feel for each other. I moved my plane, but only a 20 min ride. I think the big picture is to pick up nuggets from him and fly lots of IFR conditions to get everything put together better.

 

[WDD]

I think flying more IFR is the ticket - using googles is fine, don’t need VMC conditions.

It just takes time to build and reinforce the new neural pathways to get it where it needs to be. It will soon be as automatic as your hand eye coordination when driving a car. You’re adjusting without thinking and planning - just doing it.

 

[benyflyguy]

I was blessed do have a lot of IMC in my training. I learned early that looking outside a plane that is IMC is far more distracting and disorienting then wearing the foggles. Changing airspace can be part of your stepping back. You get used to the waypoints and approaches in your home practice field. sounds like you are chronically behind the airplane which is normal in the beginning. I think the sim is good for working on procedural steps to phases of flight. But mimicking the actual flying - for me it was no bueno.
i think even in training it’s perfectly ok that you use autopilot at times. Getting our approach and briefing approach why not use. For my exam I did tell DPE I was going to place autopilot on for one part. I think it’s important to show when and how to use the resources you have.
With practice you will find your way and start getting ahead of everything. Chair flying on a home sim helped me do that.

 

[chemgeek]

It is impossible to know what is the cause of your frustration without knowing more about how you are being taught. However, if you have not established the "numbers" for your aircraft in your first couple of lessons, you will be constantly chasing your plane all over the sky without much predictability. Once you know the "numbers" (power settings and attitudes required for various flight regimes) you can quickly set up and trim for cruise at level flight, cruise descent at 500 fpm, 500 fpm descent at 90 kt, level flight at 90 kt, Vy climb, etc. This takes a tremendous load off of flight inputs and course/altitude deviations. With the "numbers," one can rapidly and confidently transition to and from cruise, climbs, descents and approaches, and leave mental bandwidth for position visualization (without the aid of GPS).

My training started with "the numbers" flying in and out of the various flight regimes, then once that was mastered, we did a boatload of XC trips and all kinds of approaches. We did as much of that as possible in benign IMC to get a real feel for working ATC in actual conditions. By the end of 40 hours of that, I was overprepared for the checkride. My instructor was very methodical. We acquired foundational skills before attempting more advanced stuff. By the end we were throwing in partial panel failures for fun and challenge. All good stuff to prepare you for real-life. Getting some real IMC also created situations for learning the practice of evaluating in-flight weather and icing avoidance. Some folks pick it up faster than others, but IFR training is mostly about consistent procedures and persistence. Then you have to use it or lose it.

 

[4RNB]

OK, Update today. I had three two hour lessons this week. Flap motor needs replacement so everything is 0 flaps until next week sometime.

So first day flying with new CFII near home (yeah) the lesson was really to practice having a well trimmed plane. I practiced a couple days on my own doing Omega patterns, seemed to go pretty well.
Other lessons have brought on increased awareness of maintaining directional control en route, altitude control. I've a bad habit of moving yoke when I look away.
I am better on steady 500 fpm descents, using power to adjust altitude while keeping airspeed and attitude constant.

For lateral control on approaches I've been all over, bouncing left and right. I was expecting to mainly work on this with repeated approaches today but got a bit whelmed with so many things coming my way, tougher to focus. CFII warned me he was going to be in my ear more, he was. Blew first procedure turn, way over into unprotected side, perhaps poor wind correction. Good ILS after that. Then to a LOC but was guided into procedure turn 1000 ft above where I needed to end up, then after the final fix had to drop another 1000 ft quickly. First one was horrible, I knew it, said that IRL I'd talk to ATC and start over. Others were not great after that. I expect that it all came down to needing to hand fly procedure turns more proficiently, especially the first portion while compensating for any wind and going far enough out to have a good quality inbound leg on course!

I've read about 5Ts, not used them, even when I've asked others about them. CFII wants me to add this to my arsenal, certainly after today it might help better entries. AP sure handled all this stuff nicely.

Cloud Ahoy scores were crap, especially cause the LOC approaches were graded as VFR, I've asked to have them added.

Awareness is improved. Confidence comes and goes. This is all so expen$ive, wish I picked it up faster. Screw tightening on the noggin today tells me I'm not there yet. Steady rate descents greatly improved. Lateral showing hope to not bounce around through better technique to correct. Hoping to keep these up while procedure turns get better next week.

 

[Salty]

You’re doing training in a plane with broken flaps? Maybe legal if it’s placarded, but seems like a bad idea.

 

[4RNB]

You’re doing training in a plane with broken flaps? Maybe legal if it’s placarded, but seems like a bad idea.

No, flaps work and intermittently cut out. To be safe, left them up. Just got text motor came in. Less then ideal, but would have missed on the flying, insights, and sleepless nights otherwise.

 

[Salty]

No, flaps work and intermittently cut out. To be safe, left them up. Just got text motor came in. Less then ideal, but would have missed on the flying, insights, and sleepless nights otherwise.

How is that not broken?

 

[4RNB]

How is that not broken?

Thank you for the feedback and insight and help for me to become a better pilot.

 

[Salty]

Thank you for the feedback and insight and help for me to become a better pilot.

You can ignore my feedback at your own peril. It’s a link in a possible accident chain. Good ADM starts on the ground before the flight. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have flown, but I am saying it may not have been the best decision.

 

[geezer]

I flew my cross countries to Instrument standards, without an AP. That trained me to develop a good scan long before I started the Instrument training. The only planes that I flew much that had an AP were in the flight school for my Commercial rating.

AP is best reserved for when the workload is bad due to outside issues, such as weather and major reroutes. You need to train to be ready to fly with an inoperative AP.

Best wishes on the training, the W procedures, flown precisely, will be major skill builders.

 

[aggie06]

Have I been doing procedure turns wrong? Establish outbound, standard rate 45 degree turn, 1 minute, standard rate 180 degree turn the other way, and intercept the course? All these 5T, omega scan, etc things are good to have in your bag of tricks, but don’t overcomplicate things. It’s hard to blow past final on a PT my way, even if your heading isn’t exactly what’s depicted on the plate.

 

[4RNB]

Another previous post: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/discouraged-last-lesson.134754/

Update and insight.

A few months ago I tested and failed for some stupid stuff and some communication issues. My plane went in for maintenance and i was not able to retest in the 60 day window. I was to retest in July but destination wx went IFR while I was airborne. Was to retest today but that was going to be cancelled. Found out about another cancellation and was able to test yesterday, passed.

Now for some random thoughts about the process, perhaps it might help another later:

1. It took me about 275 hrs total time. Perhaps at my age it just took me longer to adapt, get comfortable, get ahead of the plane. No way to validate this.
2. My first failure might have been mitigated by check ride prep with the ACS (or a syllabus) where every task was performed. My instructor assumed I had mastered previous tasks and I failed to remember one.
3. My plane is highly capable with tech and left me deficient in hand flying. Hand flying skills highly important. I think this was unique to me reading about all the experts on POA.
4. If doing this again, or giving advice, I would STRONGLY FAVOR a school or CFII with a syllabus. Such syllabus ought stress early on the importance of known power settings and configurations for various phases of flight. I think early CFIIs knew such things, might have said what power to use, but I sure as heck had not internalized them. This video covers things: https://pilotworkshop.com/videos/ifr-foundation-video/
5. The step above can be started by oneself or with a more experienced pilot, perhaps this can save a buck. Another thing that can be done is practicing some basic and I expect classic IFR training patterns. These helped improve aircraft control and awareness: https://www.gleim.com/public/pdf/av_updates/ipfmadd2.pdf
6. In retrospect, I think it was good to take some breaks away from flying. Not super long, but a week or two here and there. This helps with mental acuity and family life.
7. I am really thankful that I had my own plane. I paid for a lot of instructor time, renting a plane would have just made it worse.
8 (Late entry). There were times that I disagreed with some of the feedback given by an instructor. I ended up paying for a Cloud Ahoy subscription. This allowed me to debrief after the fact with some objectivity. As I progressed, the things that I disagreed ended up being scored well. I think Cloud Ahoy can be a useful tool for IFR training.

In general, I think I stood a chance to pass near minimum hours if my hand flying was better and I knew (internalized) the power settings for my plane. Hand flying would have been improved by practicing the above patterns. I was unaware of these issues prior to starting my training.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Really glad you were successful.

You are correct in your conclusions regarding having a syllabus and being able to fly the airplane.

The not being able to fly is problematic when your skills at flying are being evaluated.

That all said, you don’t know what you don’t know and sounds like the person/people training you were substandard in some regards.

 

[Salty]

The Faa publishes a document that tells you exactly what you’ll be required to do. Boggles my mind that instructors don’t make this clear to their students or would sign off on a checkride without validating themselves you are ready.

 

[Sluggo63]

no, the accelerated training is away from home. I flew my plane down.

I talked to one of my old instructors on the phone (Tools here) and he suggested basic flight pattern work focusing on pipper placement (center of attitude indicator). He talked about military W patterns, said there were 4 of them. If you all know specifics of good patterns to practice please let me know.

w1 was straight and level, then 1000 fpm climbs and descents, focusing on attitude for exact placement.
Ignore muscle memory, use visual memory
Make the sight picture perfect.

w2 involved climbs and turns, he thought 180, one min, 1000 fpm.

anyone know w3 and w4?

what other good ifr patterns to practice?


Darn, these are expensive lessons!

These "W" patterns sound like what we taught in Air Force flight training. We called them the "Vertical S." There were 4 of them A-D.

Vertical S Alpha: series of climbs and descents on a constant heading. We used 1000 fpm up and down in the T-37, but you could surely use 500 or 700 fpm, whatever is compatible with what you're flying and trying to accomplish.

Vertical S Bravo: series of climbs and descents, but in a constant turn in one direction.

Vertical S Charlie: same as Bravo, except you reverse the direction of turn at the start of every descent.

Vertical S Delta: same as Charlie, except you reverse the direction of turn at every change in vertical direction.

 

[4RNB]

The Faa publishes a document that tells you exactly what you’ll be required to do. Boggles my mind that instructors don’t make this clear to their students or would sign off on a checkride without validating themselves you are ready.

I gave a copy to one of my CFIIs.