Training for more back pressure during flare

Being that you were flying a Seneca and not understanding how to transition from flying to landing seems weird to me. I flew 150ish hours in 172s and realized after getting in a Tiger and a 182 that I really didn’t know how to land a plane.

If you find yourself sinking to the runway you add a smidge of power to reduce the sink and soften the landing. It’s that simple.
 
James331 said:
I think we are kinda saying the same thing here.
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The difference is that he said it without sounding insulting to anyone. You make a lot of good points, and maybe it's just the way your prose comes across via the internet.
 
woodchucker said:
If you find yourself sinking to the runway you add a smidge of power to reduce the sink and soften the landing. It’s that simple.
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I disagree. Adding power in the flare should be a very rare occurrence. And if one has ballooned high enough to need power, it will take more than a “smidge” to soften the landing. Going around is probably a better option in that case anyway.

Messing with power in the flare just adds another variable that complicates things. I honestly cannot remember the last time I added power in the flare - my attention is elsewhere.
 
MuseChaser said:
The difference is that he said it without sounding insulting to anyone. You make a lot of good points, and maybe it's just the way your prose comes across via the internet.
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I also think people seem to get weaker and more sensitive by the year :dunno:
 
FastEddieB said:
I disagree. Adding power in the flare should be a very rare occurrence. And if one has ballooned high enough to need power, it will take more than a “smidge” to soften the landing. Going around is probably a better option in that case anyway.

Messing with power in the flare just adds another variable that complicates things. I honestly cannot remember the last time I added power in the flare - my attention is elsewhere.
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Your statement goes against every CFI I have flown with. Along with my personal experience. Consider your opinion in the extreme minority. Adding a bit of power to maintain a gentle sink rate isn’t a necessary cause for a go around. It’s good pilotage.
 
woodchucker said:
Your statement goes against every CFI I have flown with. Along with my personal experience. Consider your opinion in the extreme minority. Adding a bit of power to maintain a gentle sink rate isn’t a necessary cause for a go around. It’s good pilotage.
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I’ll take that for what it’s worth.

Personally, if I saw a student routinely manipulating the power in the flare, I’d attempt to diagnose the cause of that, since it really should not be necessary. My throttle is virtually always at idle during the roundout and flare. I would not say that landing in such a manner as to not routinely need power is necessarily “good pilotage”. But if it’s how you were taught - by every CFI, no less - by all means keep doing it if you get good results. But you do have me wondering how common such a technique is.
 
Rod Machado on at least one occasion has referred to the throttle as something like the "slow motion control" during landings. If things are happening a little too fast to allow you to find exactly the right time to add exactly the right amount of up elevator, adding a little extra power during the flare will slow the event down and give you more time. It'll also use more runway, of course, but it's another possible training tool.
 
Salty said:
I think this deserves a call out. It’s so true for many people in many planes that the final flare you can’t see directly in front of you. If you’re trying to continue to be able to see directly in front of you then you are going to have the issues described in the OP. I have to look to the side of the nose just before touch down in just about every plane I fly. Guess what, I’m short.

It may seem counter intuitive, but being able to see straight ahead in that few seconds is not important.
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You’re not short by my standards. :) I use a seat cushion and it helps a LOT.
 
When I started training in our Cherokee, I couldn't see anything straight ahead during takeoffs or duing landings without full flaps. No-flap landings scared the tar out of me. The first time my CFI handed me a boat cushion was like being released from prison....AMAZING!! I didn't realize just how beat up the pilot's seat was in our plane;my partner who previously was sole owner is a big 240lb formidable self-defense expert, and I'm 5'8" on a good day. His concentrated mass had taken its toll on that seat over the years. We had the seats redone and I haven't needed the cushion since, but I can still remember the huge improvement it made!
 
Cushions won't help the OP.

Btw, DaveinPA, you didn't say if this happened at night. Have your eyes been causing some driving issues in the 15 years since you last flew? Also, knowing you were in a light twin, do you buzz in all the way to the threshold at or above blue line? You should be at 1.3 Vso not blue line (which is a takeoff reference, not used for landings but for bad in-breeding amongst CFIs).
 
sarangan said:
I am not going to eat you alive here because I have never tried that technique, but my concern would be the forward pressure needed during a go-around.
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Somedudeintn said:
I wouldn’t be too concerned in a 172, but I wouldn’t try that in a 182!
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Not that big a deal if you know it’s coming. Just push hard and get the other hand rolling the trim. Don’t dawdle.

But not recommended for inexperienced folks who’ll be surprised by the pitch up and won’t instinctively push. Also not good technique for someone with upper body strength issues or tiny T-Rex arms. LOL.

As far as the pull on the yoke for landing is going, is your CFI teaching the yoke ends up FULL aft after a good landing? Follow through. Keep pulling not to land and then keep pulling until you hit the stop.

If you can hold the nosewheel off doing a full power soft-field, you can hold it off at the same airspeed during a landing... if you think about it. Puuuuuullll.

Those ailerons should be going all the way over as you slow also. Visualize that yoke hitting you in the gut and turned all the way toward the wind.

The landing isn’t over when the wheels touch. :)
 
Unless you were trimmed for a stall, applying full power isn’t going to do anything that horrible even if you don’t “push hard”. It might be uncomfortably steep, but the plane is going to keep flying.
 
MuseChaser said:
Rod Machado on at least one occasion has referred to the throttle as something like the "slow motion control" during landings. If things are happening a little too fast to allow you to find exactly the right time to add exactly the right amount of up elevator, adding a little extra power during the flare will slow the event down and give you more time. It'll also use more runway, of course, but it's another possible training tool.
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Exactly. A touch of power make the flare last longer, and gives the pilot a little more time to get things sorted out. But you better have a long runway. Even a tiny bit of power chews up a lot of runway.
 
dtuuri said:
Not trying to be mean, but I hope for your sake you park that Seneca until you master this. Those trunions aren't exactly made of cast iron. Do you have access to a tailwheel checkout?
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Yep that’s the plan...keep training in 172 while Seneca is in shop and get proficient proficient...
 
Salty said:
Unless you were trimmed for a stall, applying full power isn’t going to do anything that horrible even if you don’t “push hard”. It might be uncomfortably steep, but the plane is going to keep flying.
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Wrong.
 
Salty said:
I was waiting for someone to say that. Educate me.
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The first sentence didn't even make sense, I don't know what "(not) trimmed for a stall" is supposed to mean. For the rest, read the section on elevator trim stalls in the AFH. Easy enough to see in practice, every CFI had to do it.
 
dmspilot said:
The first sentence didn't even make sense, I don't know what "(not) trimmed for a stall" is supposed to mean. For the rest, read the section on elevator trim stalls in the AFH. Easy enough to see in practice, every CFI had to do it.
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That’s still not educating anyone. I was setting someone up for it, but ok, I’ll post it myself since you don’t want to.

The combined effects of increased propwash over the tail and elevator trim tend to make the nose rise sharply and turn to the left.
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With regards to trim- I’ve always found a few turns of nose up trim makes landing so much easier in a 172. I usually again, use feel, to get the trim right. On approach I’ll swipe nose up a few times while descending and then if I feel the yoke become a bit easier to pull back on while descending, I know that during the roundout, I won’t have to jerk on the yoke and “pull.” Actually all I really need to do is remove the forward pressure from the descent and level off and then really just gently apply back pressure and I’m already in the proper attitude for landing.

I really believe landing is all about feel. People could be taught several different ways to visually land or textbook ways to make an approach and roubdout but really that’s about knowing what to do and when to do it— you won’t always touchdown smoothly even if you do everything by the textbook. The actual touchdown part is really about feel otherwise we’d always have greasers and I know I certainly don’t!
 
sarangan said:
I am not going to eat you alive here because I have never tried that technique, but my concern would be the forward pressure needed during a go-around.
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That would be my concern also. Teaching a incorrect technique to compensate for a incorrect technique is bad instruction. Go out and do a bunch of slow flight to get comfortable with the proper landing attitude.
 
dtuuri said:
Not trying to be mean, but I hope for your sake you park that Seneca until you master this. Those trunions aren't exactly made of cast iron. Do you have access to a tailwheel checkout?
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If he had a prop strike the aircraft is parked. The engine must come off the airframe and go in for a tear down. Probably 6 to 8 weeks minimum.
 
Salty said:
That’s still not educating anyone. I was setting someone up for it, but ok, I’ll post it myself since you don’t want to.
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And that supports your position how?
 
dmspilot said:
And that supports your position how?
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It does not support my original statement. I was trying to get someone else to explain why it was wrong.
 
Somedudeintn said:
Try not to land. Seriously. See how long you can keep the plane off the runway.

You can also try to think of the yoke as a ratchet that only goes one way. You can ease it back, but don’t push forward. This works for most cases and the mental image may help you
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This helped me really learn how to grease them!! Other advise here is trim trim trim. Often the instinct to feel you are pulling to hard can’t be fought. So trimming on final will erase a lot of the extra sensation of too much back pressure.
Plus if your flying a rental- make sure seat is always where you like it. Our club 182 has adjustments up and down and that change can really screw your site picture up. We got one really tall guy and one short in our club. When I get in after them I always need to adjust.
 
Jeff767 said:
That would be my concern also. Teaching a incorrect technique to compensate for a incorrect technique is bad instruction. Go out and do a bunch of slow flight to get comfortable with the proper landing attitude.
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Do you not trim the airplane during slow flight? I do, and I teach my students to as well.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Do you not trim the airplane during slow flight? I do, and I teach my students to as well.
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landing and slow flight are different phases of flight. I won't cast stones at instructors that use this technique but I will not use it myself. I teach students to trim for the phase of flight and specifically discourage people from using trim to fly the airplane. There is no reason to fly the approach out of trim to cover up poor pilot technique. Its a bad solution in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. Other CFI's will disagree and they are free to do so.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
landing and slow flight are different phases of flight. I won't cast stones at instructors that use this technique but I will not use it myself. I teach students to trim for the phase of flight and specifically discourage people from using trim to fly the airplane. There is no reason to fly the approach out of trim to cover up poor pilot technique. Its a bad solution in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. Other CFI's will disagree and they are free to do so.
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Ditto from a fellow CFI.
 
Salty said:
I was waiting for someone to say that. Educate me.
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What he’s saying is, the elevator on most singles is more effective in propwash, for one.

So how do you know you didn’t “trim for stall”? Only set the trim at full power in a climb and never more?

Two, more elevator effectiveness with speed. Go out sometime and trim for best glide. Then give the yoke push and let go. Watch the nose hunt up and down with speed changes for a bit. This is covered in the AFM under types of stability.

In the end, you just have to put the aircraft where you want it with the controls and then you can trim away forces. But any change in pitch or power will upset the speed, and the aircraft trim state may cause the aircraft to “over do it” trying to find that speed.

We also see this in so called “falling leaf” stalls. Angle of attack increases and aircraft slows, control authority disappears and full rudder is needed until the nose falls and the aircraft tries to fly again — while always headed down.

In my STOL 182 I can do falling leafs not just with the trim all the way up, but with the elevator held all the way back. I demo this for folks by wrapping both arms around it. Don’t want aileron use anyway, so both arms around it, it’s full aft and not being turned. The airplane will just slowly bring the nose up, fall off, speed up, nose rises as elevator becomes more effective, wing stalls again or nearly so, repeat. The elevator is in the fully locked up position the entire time.

Make sense?
 
Jeff767 said:
That would be my concern also. Teaching a incorrect technique to compensate for a incorrect technique is bad instruction. Go out and do a bunch of slow flight to get comfortable with the proper landing attitude.
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It's this kind of thinking that makes working together difficult...the idea that something that doesn't work for you or that you disagree with is "incorrect" or "bad instruction." Good instruction helps the student understand and improve and, in my case, it did, and safely... erego, it was GOOD instruction. I'll be the first to admit that my opinions may not be right for everyone. I'll also state that I'm completely comfortable with slow flight with the stall horn screaming the entire time...and trimmed for it.
 
Jeff767 said:
That would be my concern also. Teaching a incorrect technique to compensate for a incorrect technique is bad instruction. Go out and do a bunch of slow flight to get comfortable with the proper landing attitude.
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And..while we're using the words "incorrect" and "bad" to describe opinions, using the article "a" before the word "incorrect" is both bad and incorrect grammar. That is not an opinion. Just me being obnoxious... ;)
 
IK04 said:
I have never heard the phrase "trim for stall."
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I think he’s essentially saying if the trim is set nose up enough, the aircraft will stall. This misses the nuances of how the trim, elevator, airspeed, and airflow from the prop, all interact.

Most Cessnas won’t stall at idle power with full up trim.

It’s a misunderstanding of how trim works.
 
My initial thought was that you trim for AOA. Unless you were originally trimmed for an AOA beyond critical, you’re not going to stall when you change power settings. I immediately realized there’s more to it than that, but rather than fixing my post, I waited for someone to correct me. Sorry for the confusion that created.
 
Look for a Finer Points video on "The Lindbergh Reference" for dealing with not seeing over the nose. "End of the runway" is just one of a number of techniques to force you to look beyond the nose so you can pick up visual cues. Have you ever tried to remain centered going 70 on a highway by looking only 3 feet in front of your car?

Bottom line for me is the tricycle flare is a visual pitch attitude. One just high enough relative to three wheels on the pavement to know the extended nose wheel is clear. With that sight picture in mind, pulling back in the flare is the natural result of the loss of flight control effectiveness, not some mantra we perform with blinders on.
 
Student and new pilots may freeze in the flare, waiting for the landing to just happen. I would guess some of the CFIs in this thread have seen this behavior. This may be part of the OPs issue. I am sure that much of the above advice has been helpful, but if the OP is freezing it won't help. Landing may seem a passive activity to students and new pilots, but it is a very active phase of flight.

My advice is to find a long, wide runway and practice. It may also be helpful to seek out crosswind practice. If your feet are dancing it's harder to freeze.
 
FastEddieB said:
But it will simply not work in a pretty broad class of planes where you just cannot see over the nose in the proper landing attitude, so it’s probably best to not have that as an exclusive technique.
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My experience is the opposite of yours. I find that with students who don't flare enough, it's because they AREN'T looking at the far end of the runway. Anyway, I don't know why it has to be one or the other. Why isn't it "look at the far end until you can't see it anymore"? That's what I do.
 
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