Traffic Pattern question. VFR

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JasonM

Pattern Altitude
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JM
I am just getting to understand how the traffic pattern works and flying in it, but a question came to mind. What if I flew into the downwind infront of a plane that was cleared to land or I am not cleared to land.

What do I do when I come upon the final for the runway? Do I stay at the same altitude and fly over the runway? Do I fly the the side of the runway at the pattern altitude? what is the rule with this? Thanks.
 
Think about how this situation would come about at a controlled field, and you can see that it is a nearly impossible scenario.
 
I've been thinking, just prob. to much. :) If this is an impossible scenario, I wont think about it again. Just thought maybe there was some sort of plan for this in that event.
 
Tower isn't going to put you in front of a plane on downwind who has already been cleared to land. If tower hasn't cleared me on downwind then I give them a reminder by reporting base. If you haven't been cleared to land yet while on final, then you better query the tower to see what's up because they probably forgot about you.
 
and, in that impossible scenario that they forget about me or don't respond to my radio call, do I fly over or just land? I know. I know., highly unlikely. just was a thought I had.
 
JasonM said:
and, in that impossible scenario that they forget about me or don't respond to my radio call,
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They will respond. If you are already in the Class D airspace, you would have called prior to 5 miles out and they would have told you how to enter the pattern.

do I fly over or just land? I know. I know., highly unlikely. just was a thought I had.
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Well, barring unusual circumstances, you DON"T just land. You would be landing without a clearance and that is a No No. Just keep trying to contact them. They will respond.
 
I did have another plane overtake me on final after I was already cleared to land (he was directly overhead and cleared me by only about ten feet). Tower made him go around. I was ready to give him an ass whooping after I landed.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I did have another plane overtake me on final after I was already cleared to land (he was directly overhead and cleared me by only about ten feet). Tower made him go around. I was ready to give him an ass whooping after I landed.
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so it is possible. :goofy: , When he went around, did he fly at traffic pattern alt over the runway or off to one side?

Sorry, I just have to divulge on this some more. :sosp:
 
JasonM said:
so it is possible. :goofy: , When he went around, did he fly at traffic pattern alt over the runway or off to one side?

Sorry, I just have to divulge on this some more. :sosp:
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Either way will work. Most go arounds parallel the runway to see any departing traffic. Just don't land without a clearance.
 
Folks have said that the situation shouldn't happen at an airport with an operating control tower and of course they are correct.

That said, I did make the following call one day after tower told me to follow the Cessna on downwind: "47E doesn't have the Cessna in sight but we do have the Mooney." The instructor and I had watched the Mooney turn to the downwind in front of us - they came from the right and we were on a left downwind. The controller did ask the Mooney to 'splain what exactly he was doing there...

Long story made short: always keep yer eyes peeled 'cause anything can and will happen.
 
JasonM said:
so it is possible. :goofy: , When he went around, did he fly at traffic pattern alt over the runway or off to one side?

Sorry, I just have to divulge on this some more. :sosp:
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It's best to fly offset to the right so that you can see the runway.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
It's best to fly offset to the right so that you can see the runway.

Bob Gardner
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This is exactly right. I was denied landing clearance once on short final because a southwest 737 was only two miles behind me and that's not enough time to land an get off the runway in the 172 I was flying. Tower told me to go around and side step to the right. The side step serves two purposes as far as I can tell. One, it allows you to maintain visual with the runway and two, it allows the faster plane an option to go around on runway heading if they had to. In over 200 landings in the logbook thus has only happened once so it's not a common event.
 
JasonM said:
I've been thinking, just prob. to much. :) If this is an impossible scenario, I wont think about it again. Just thought maybe there was some sort of plan for this in that event.
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There is, step right, add throttle and get out of there, that is the answer to nearly any questionable situation, bail out of there, however you may want to listen to ATC instructions when operating in controlled airspace. You see that you have to mess up real bad to put yourself in that position and that people will be yelling at you right? What you do is what ATC tells you to do which likely would be to extend down wind while the person you cut off turns base then when he turns final they'll call your base, clear you to land #2 and ask you to taxi to the tower upon landing or give you a phone member to call.
 
Thanks everyone. I think this topic clears this up for me. Has not been a real scenario, but something that came to mind and made me think.. I assume this could also be a possibility if someone cuts you off and lands without clearance in front of you. :)
 
OK, how about this one?

You're just turning from the 45 to downwind at midfield (left hand traffic pattern) for runway 03 at an uncontrolled airport, when a plane flies overhead (barely) in the opposite direction and calls, "N123, number one for landing on 03." (Before you ask, 21 is also a left hand pattern, but winds and ATIS definitely favor 03.) What do you do when some calls that they're #1, when they're in no position to be #1?

I'll let you know what I did after the discussion.
 
upstateny said:
OK, how about this one?

You're just turning from the 45 to downwind at midfield (left hand traffic pattern) for runway 03 at an uncontrolled airport, when a plane flies overhead (barely) in the opposite direction and calls, "N123, number one for landing on 03." (Before you ask, 21 is also a left hand pattern, but winds and ATIS definitely favor 03.) What do you do when some calls that they're #1, when they're in no position to be #1?

I'll let you know what I did after the discussion.
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I'd talk on the CTAF and work it out with the other plane. I'm not going to tell him which runway to land on...he's a big boy. There are times landing with a tail wind is appropriate. It's not up to anyone to decide for another pilot which runway to land on.

So...talk on the CTAF. Be safe. Land. No problems at all. If I'm closer to base than him I'd expect he let me land first. If he is then I'd orbit and let him land first.

Uncontrolled means just that. It moves airport control to ALL the pilots...not just one.


Of course there is the issue of him being in a right hand traffic pattern when he should have been left. Not sure what to say...we all make mistakes?
 
upstateny said:
OK, how about this one?

You're just turning from the 45 to downwind at midfield (left hand traffic pattern) for runway 03 at an uncontrolled airport, when a plane flies overhead (barely) in the opposite direction and calls, "N123, number one for landing on 03." (Before you ask, 21 is also a left hand pattern, but winds and ATIS definitely favor 03.) What do you do when some calls that they're #1, when they're in no position to be #1?

I'll let you know what I did after the discussion.
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So someone passes you opposite (right downwind for 21) direction but calls for a left downwind for 3?
 
Henning said:
Advise them of your position an that they will be number 2.
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Then both of us think we are on the downwind, midfield for 03. We're just going in opposite directions. Not really a lot of time to argue over who's right.
 
Might query him if he's sure he's set up for three not two one....
 
Oops, sorry. I thought he was going for 21 and that was the issue. I see now you said he called 'number one for runway 3'.

How a person could call left traffic when the field is passing down the right side confuses me.
 
What if he is not thinking clearly and meant right base for 21 when you are going left base for 03 and you assume he meant what he said and you both went at it head on from both ends? I know.. prob another impossible situation brought up by me. Sorry if that's an uneducated question to yours, i'm only learning.
 
Henning said:
Might query him if he's sure he's set up for three not two one....
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If he is, he's on the wrong side of the field. BTW, the "I'm #1 for landing" was his last radio call and he landed on 03.
 
Not worth the conflict, he can have it lol, sounds like he came in on an overhead break, those kinda people are just too important to get in their way.
 
upstateny said:
If he is, he's on the wrong side of the field. BTW, the "I'm #1 for landing" was his last radio call and he landed on 03.
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So how did he maneuver from downwind to 21 to land on 3 and beat you in?
 
Yeah now that I think about it, it sounds like he was doing a poor example on how to do an overhead. Of course that maneuver is banned on this website so don't go there.:wink2:
 
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JasonM said:
Would that depend on a right or left traffic pattern? Or regardless, fly offset to the right?

Thanks..
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If you are sitting in the left seat, offset so that you can see the runway. At a tower-controlled airport, the controller will probably tell you where to go.

Bob
 
JasonM said:
What if he is not thinking clearly and meant right base for 21 when you are going left base for 03 and you assume he meant what he said and you both went at it head on from both ends? I know.. prob another impossible situation brought up by me. Sorry if that's an uneducated question to yours, i'm only learning.
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The wise thing to do is to forget about who is #1 or who got there first or who is right....just add power, climb out of there, and come back for another approach.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
The wise thing to do is to forget about who is #1 or who got there first or who is right....just add power, climb out of there, and come back for another approach.

Bob Gardner
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:yeahthat: :yes:
 
Captain said:
So how did he maneuver from downwind to 21 to land on 3 and beat you in?
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No idea.

My solution: get outta there. I abandoned the turn downwind, climbed and overflew the field. I let him figure things out and landed later.

BTW, I lied a little about his transmssion. It was really, "Mooney 123..." not "N123....". I was told later, they're a different breed.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
They will respond. If you are already in the Class D airspace, you would have called prior to 5 miles out and they would have told you how to enter the pattern.



Well, barring unusual circumstances, you DON"T just land. You would be landing without a clearance and that is a No No. Just keep trying to contact them. They will respond.
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What do you do if you're cleared for frequency change to tower freq by ATC and the tower operators have fallen asleep at the class B airport?

:stirpot:
 
Jaybird180 said:
What do you do if you're cleared for frequency change to tower freq by ATC and the tower operators have fallen asleep at the class B airport?

:stirpot:
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It's been done. You land using nontowered procedures. KDCA in 2011. Lost comms procedures apply under IFR.

Under VFR, you divert and remain clear of Class B.
 
JasonM said:
I am just getting to understand how the traffic pattern works and flying in it, but a question came to mind. What if I flew into the downwind infront of a plane that was cleared to land or I am not cleared to land.

What do I do when I come upon the final for the runway? Do I stay at the same altitude and fly over the runway? Do I fly the the side of the runway at the pattern altitude? what is the rule with this? Thanks.
Click to expand...

You query the tower, verify that you've been cleared to land. The tower isn't going to sequence you in front of an aircraft that's been cleared to land and not issue a landing clearance to you. Either you've missed it or the tower controller is thinking he's already given it to you.
 
bobmrg said:
It's best to fly offset to the right so that you can see the runway.
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Unless told otherwise, an aircraft instructed to go around should overfly the runway and climb to pattern altitude.
 
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