Traffic pattern question: do you ever...

[Irish_Armada]

...descend into the pattern, or should you always enter at TPA at the 45 or some other extended leg? For example, say I'm coming from the west for left traffic runway 18. Is it okay to overfly the field (assume 1000 ft TPA) at 1500 and enter the left downwind by doing a descending left turn to TPA? Even if there is no conflicting traffic, is this a no-no? Normally, I would overfly the field and keep going away from the pattern until i could do a descending 180 turn and come back for the 45 at TPA. But I've seen some pilots do it the other way and just wondering how common/appropriate that is.

 

[kkoran]

How would you know there is no conflicting traffic?

 

[MachFly]

I think the standard is to overfly the field at TPA + 500 and then maneuver for a 45 downwind and enter downwind wile already being at TPA. However I personally prefer to descend into the downwind (from a turn) this way I have a three dimensional view of the downwind.
When your entering the downwind already at TPA you see all the traffic from the side and it's harder to spot, when your descending in your seeing the traffic from the top and side therefore spotting traffic becomes much easier.

Normally, I would overfly the field and keep going away from the pattern until i could do a descending 180 turn and come back for the 45 at TPA.

I seen a number of people do this and I think this makes overflying the field almost useless. When you overfly the field you scan for traffic then take your time to turn around for the 45, in that time the whole traffic situation will change.

 

[Captain]

Boy you guys would hate my answer...

 

[Geico266]

This is why RV drivers invented the overhead break.

 

[CBeaulieu]

I skip traffic patterns and fly straight in like I own the place...

(kidding)

I descend to pattern alt about 5 miles out then enter on the downwind leg. I don't overfly the field because we have a VOR at AUG and have a number of people who overfly while tracking it.

 

[Clark1961]

Why not cross the field at TPA and enter the downwind on the 45 from the field side? I believe that approach is close to what the Canadians do.

Descending into the pattern seems to me to be a generally bad idea. Yes, people do it. I still remember the time some guy dropped iin n front of me (about 1/4 mile in front) on the downwind at LMO while I was on my second supervised solo. I'm sure he was thinkin' something along the lines of: d*amn students clogging up the pattern, git outta the way...

 

[timwinters]

I just typically just do a direct entry to left crosswind at TPA unless it's a busy pattern and/or there is departing traffic but almost everywhere around here is dead...especially for the last few years. I've just never liked the idea of crossing midfield.

 

[Bob Noel]

I normally enter the pattern at TPA

 

[flyingron]

In Australia midfield crosswind entry is common. That tends to screw people's minds here. I will however enter upwind or past the end of runway crosswind.
There's no real guidance on this from the FAA. Even the picture in the AIM showing 45 entry is technically in conflict with the regulatory guidance.

Far more important:

When entering to any part of the pattern, be at the TPA.
Keep your eyes out for traffic in the pattern and others joining.
Self announce and keep an ear out for others.

Frankly everybody's idea of what 45 degrees is and where a 45 degree entry should hit the downwind leg is all over the place anyhow. It's sort of watching four wide racing at a NASCAR speedway.

 

[Tex_Mike]

Frankly everybody's idea of what 45 degrees is and where a 45 degree entry should hit the downwind leg is all over the place anyhow. It's sort of watching four wide racing at a NASCAR speedway.

Funny- I think the same thing. First time I heard another pilot say it though. I am pretty much an airport bum so I like to sit near the runway with my handheld and look for the planes based on where they say they are. It really is amazing to see where some of these guys are in relation to where they think they are.

When landing on 180 and approaching from the west I was taught to overfly the filed at +500 TPA, do a descending teardrop onto the 45. I did this on my PPL check ride and the examiner asked me why I was doing this maneuver. His preference was to cross mid field at TPA and enter the down wind at mid field. His thought was that you get a much better view of the traffic by doing this. He pointed out, like the poster above, that when you overfly for the teardrop/45 you are turning your back on the traffic pattern and things can change during the minute or two you are doing this maneuver. Personally I like the far out approach the 45 entry gives me. Seems like things happen quickly when I enter mid field. I want to feel comfortable in all situations so, as a matter of pushing myself a bit, I use both approaches.

 

[MassPilot]

A couple weeks ago I was flying into KBID and perfectly setup for the x-wind to 28 while about 5 out. I was going to just enter on the x-wind and turn downwind, but I kept hearing one call out after another for departing traffic. I decided to fly about a half mile off the approach end at TPA+500, then I made a descending right turn and entered the 45 at TPA. Wasn't terribly difficult and added no more than two minutes to the flight. Not to mention it gave my passenger some more opportunity for some awesome aerial views of the island.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I never cross any pattern at pattern altitude. Period. I think any action that can reduce the chances of an unwanted encounter with another airplane is a good thing. At my home field I frequently am descending when I arrive since coming from population centers in Oregon mean you are at 11k plus coming over the mountains from the valley and the field is at 3400.

If I have to use 16 for landing I just track to the south of the airport a few miles and then come around for a 45 entry into the downwind. The tiny amount of extra time and fuel required sure beats getting my name in the paper.

 

[poadeleted20]

...descend into the pattern,

No. Descending into the pattern is a great way to cause a mid-air collision

or should you always enter at TPA at the 45 or some other extended leg?

Yes. It's a good practice to be at TPA before you enter the traffic pattern area, which is generally defined as 2-3 miles out.

For example, say I'm coming from the west for left traffic runway 18. Is it okay to overfly the field (assume 1000 ft TPA) at 1500 and enter the left downwind by doing a descending left turn to TPA?

I think not. If you want to overfly the field, do so 500 above the pattern, then get outside the pattern, descend, and enter at TPA. If you can do without the overflight, just be at TPA 2-3 miles out and enter on the crosswind at TPA.

Even if there is no conflicting traffic, is this a no-no?

It's often hard to be sure there is no conflicting traffic, as not everyone has a radio, and some who do have one still don't like to talk on it.

Normally, I would overfly the field and keep going away from the pattern until i could do a descending 180 turn and come back for the 45 at TPA.

That's a good, safe practice.

But I've seen some pilots do it the other way

That's legal, but compromises safety to some degree.

and just wondering how common/appropriate that is.

Common? I don't know. Appropriate? I think not.

 

[poadeleted20]

Why not cross the field at TPA and enter the downwind on the 45 from the field side? I believe that approach is close to what the Canadians do.

That is not quite what the Canadians do. They cross at TPA, but turn straight into the downwind without going out the other side and coming back. I think that's not compatible with normal traffic pattern procedures here (creates conflicts with traffic coming in on the 45 or in the closed pattern), but it's not illegal and a lot of folks do it. As for going straight across the pattern at TPA and going out the other side to come back, that really creates conflicts.

Descending into the pattern seems to me to be a generally bad idea.

Agreed.

 

[Alexb2000]

I usually just say, "Experimental XXX, 5 out for the break, clear the pattern".

That way everyone knows what they need to do.

Taken from the RV flying handbook.

 

[Jaybird180]

I've done both, TPA +500 and swing out wide to join the 45 at TPA. Haven't figured out which I prefer. My CFI did not like nor approve of my using TPA +500, but....

 

[Jaybird180]

I've done both, TPA +500 and swing out wide to join the 45 at TPA. Haven't figured out which I prefer. My CFI did not like nor approve of my using TPA +500, but....

To clarify, I do not decend in the pattern. I do it away from the immediate runway vicinity after crossing.

 

[jtheune]

Part of it depends on the local airport. at my home drome the normal approach from the east brings you up a river from the bay. a common practice is to follow the river up to abeam the midfield. If the wind favors 12 then your on the downwind and if it favors 30 you do a crosswind entry at midfield to the downwind. There are two keys points here. you should be looking for strangers and you need to make good radio calls. This is about the only good thing I can say about the SFRA, there is no nordo traffic ( absent last minute failures ) as you must be talking and squawking to get in.

The advantage to this approach is that your over a river and it reduces your noise footprint for the locals. and while we now have a superawos for the longest time there was no awos nor unicom so you had to fly up to the airport to see the windsock. Very often there is no traffic and it's your best guess from other airports as to what runway to expect until you get close enough to see the sock. The airport is charted as no straight ins and while we have a school at the airport they don't train there, they go to other airports. Also no touch and gos allowed either. Your mileage may vary

 

[AggieMike88]

If you want to overfly the field, do so 500 above the pattern, then get outside the pattern, descend, and enter at TPA. If you can do without the overflight, just be at TPA 2-3 miles out and enter on the crosswind at TPA

This when at uncontrolled fields.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've done both, TPA +500 and swing out wide to join the 45 at TPA. Haven't figured out which I prefer. My CFI did not like nor approve of my using TPA +500, but....

Yeah, well, TPA+500 at your airport puts you in the B-space, and that's true even though your TPA is only 832 AGL.

 

[poadeleted20]

This when at uncontrolled fields.

Well, yes -- I didn't think the dicussion was otherwise. You normally don't get to choose how to enter the pattern at towered airports -- the controller will tell you what s/he wants, and even if s/he doesn't, you'll be coordinating what you're doing with them and they'll let you know if they don't want you to do that.

 

[steingar]

Always enter at TPA. Two reasons. First is I should be visible to everyone. Enter from above, those in high wing aircraft may not see me. Enter from below, and I might not be seen by those in low wing aircraft. Enter at TPA, I should be visible to all.

The second is if I'm at TPA I know roughly where to look for conflicting traffic.

 

[gkainz]

and then there's the multiple traffic pattern altitudes ... need to remember that above "your" TPA might not be above "EVERYONE'S" TPA

 

[ChrisK]

I really do like this PDF:

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

I think we are talking mainly about Figs 9 and 10..

 

[slacktide]

I've done both, TPA +500 and swing out wide to join the 45 at TPA. Haven't figured out which I prefer. My CFI did not like nor approve of my using TPA +500, but....

FYI many airports have a turbine pattern which is 500 feet above the standard TPA altitude, and this will place you in conflict with them.

When approaching from the non-pattern side of the airport, my preference is to enter on the crosswind leg. I don't like overflying the airport then maneuvering to enter on the 45.... Making a descending 270º turn reduces your visibility of other traffic in the airport environment for a long period of time. Entering on crosswind gives you good visibility of the runway environment, departure leg traffic, and other traffic in the area. It also complies with the FAR that all turns in the pattern be in the same direction..

As far as altitude, I plan my descent to be at pattern altitude, AND within the white arc, prior to entering the pattern. However, I see no reason to tool along at pattern altitude for the last 5 miles leading up to the airport. This just annoys airport neighbors and reduces my options in the event of power loss.

 

[MassPilot]

FYI many airports have a turbine pattern which is 500 feet above the standard TPA altitude, and this will place you in conflict with them.

When approaching from the non-pattern side of the airport, my preference is to enter on the crosswind leg. I don't like overflying the airport then maneuvering to enter on the 45.... Making a descending 270º turn reduces your visibility of other traffic in the airport environment for a long period of time. Entering on crosswind gives you good visibility of the runway environment, departure leg traffic, and other traffic in the area. It also complies with the FAR that all turns in the pattern be in the same direction..

As far as altitude, I plan my descent to be at pattern altitude, AND within the white arc, prior to entering the pattern. However, I see no reason to tool along at pattern altitude for the last 5 miles leading up to the airport. This just annoys airport neighbors and reduces my options in the event of power loss.

Do you enter the crosswind midfield or where departing traffic normally turn crosswind? If it's the latter I'd be worried about high performance departing traffic, especially with longer runways. In either case I'd worry about someone making an early decision to go around.

I've already had one instance where I announced my departure on an ATIS frequency and didn't realize it until I started hearing the ATIS at 500 AGL (intercom set to COM2 instead of COM1). You can never depend on radio call-outs. I try to keep my head on a swivel, but traffic can be hard to spot sometimes.

This is one of those things that you could ask 10 pilots and get 10 different answers. I trained at a non-towered field, but I'm really starting to appreciate towers.

 

[Tex_Mike]

When approaching from the non-pattern side of the airport, my preference is to enter on the crosswind leg. I don't like overflying the airport then maneuvering to enter on the 45...

Here is one for you- My home airfield has helicopter traffic, much of it training related so they do a lot of pattern work. The Heli's fly right hand patters while the fixed wings fly left. Entering the patterns on a cross wind at the departure end of the runway is a bit scary for me. I am afraid to hit a whirly bird head on.

 

[MadseasoN]

When approaching from the non-pattern side of the airport, my preference is to enter on the crosswind leg.

I was trained to not do that. I haven't seen too many pilots that check their 3:00 before turning left crosswind from the departure leg. If they're still climbing where you're 'crosswind' is then you'll never see them. For AC on the approaching side they aren't going to know exactly where your crosswind leg is either.

When approaching from the non-pattern side I cross at TPA - 90 degrees to the rwy then join the downwind leg. It reduces the amount of radio calls and there's no mystery of where you are if you call 'approaching from the west, crossing at [TPA] then turning left-downwind for 14'.

 

[JoeSelch]

Do you enter the crosswind midfield or where departing traffic normally turn crosswind?
...

You didn't ask me, but as one of at least 10 pilots, I enter crosswind over the departure end of the runway.

 

[Jaybird180]

Yeah, well, TPA+500 at your airport puts you in the B-space, and that's true even though your TPA is only 832 AGL.

At the home drone, you'd better know which way you're going before you get there.

FYI many airports have a turbine pattern which is 500 feet above the standard TPA altitude, and this will place you in conflict with them.

While there's a procedure that says +500 in the AF/D, trust me, it ain't gonna happen at W00 on 2440x40

 

[poadeleted20]

Here is one for you- My home airfield has helicopter traffic, much of it training related so they do a lot of pattern work. The Heli's fly right hand patters while the fixed wings fly left. Entering the patterns on a cross wind at the departure end of the runway is a bit scary for me. I am afraid to hit a whirly bird head on.

The "whirlybird" should be 500 feet below you at that point, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Henning]

Typically straight in. I try to avoid the pattern at most small airports due to speed conflicts with typical pattern traffic.

 

[poadeleted20]

I was trained to not do that. I haven't seen too many pilots that check their 3:00 before turning left crosswind from the departure leg.

They shouldn't have to, because it's your responsibility to spot and stay clear of them (in front or behind).

If they're still climbing where you're 'crosswind' is then you'll never see them.

I'm not seeing how that's possible, since they will be coming up from ahead and to your left (in left traffic).

For AC on the approaching side they aren't going to know exactly where your crosswind leg is either.

That's true only if you don't fly it as the FAA recommends flying a crosswind leg.

When approaching from the non-pattern side I cross at TPA - 90 degrees to the rwy then join the downwind leg. It reduces the amount of radio calls and there's no mystery of where you are if you call 'approaching from the west, crossing at [TPA] then turning left-downwind for 14'.

That also creates a burning hot spot at the point where the downwind, 45-downwind, and your path meet about midfield downwind, and two of the three planes converging will be belly-up to the other two. I'll pass on that.

 

[poadeleted20]

While there's a procedure that says +500 in the AF/D, trust me, it ain't gonna happen at W00 on 2440x40

At W00, the pattern is published as:

TPA 1000 FT MSL (832 FT AGL) FOR ACFT LESS THAN 4000 LBS MAX GWT; TPA 1200 FT MSL (1032 FT AGL) FOR ACFT GREATER THAN 4000 LBS

...so the "heavy" traffic will be 200 above the "light" traffic, and the base of the B-space is only 300 above that. With all that, plus the SFRA around you and the FRZ only a mile away and approaches of 5.5 degrees one way and 6 degrees the other, W00 is definitely not for the faint of heart.

BTW, if you look closely at the airspace, the A/FD, and the DC SFRA/FRZ rules, you'll see there is no way to be arriving from the nonpattern side at W00, which makes this discussion moot for that airport.

 

[brcase]

That is not quite what the Canadians do. They cross at TPA, but turn straight into the downwind without going out the other side and coming back. I think that's not compatible with normal traffic pattern procedures here (creates conflicts with traffic coming in on the 45 or in the closed pattern), but it's not illegal and a lot of folks do it. As for going straight across the pattern at TPA and going out the other side to come back, that really creates conflicts.

Agreed.

IMO this is the best document on how to enter traffic patterns.

http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf

Some will argue it is not an FAA document however AC90-66a contains the following.
"RELATED READING MATERIAL:"
"g. Pilot Operations at Nontowered Airports, AOPA Air Safety Foundation pamphlet."

IMO I disagree that the mid-field crossing causes a conflict, in fact I would argue it is safer than descending and maneuvering to enter on what the pilot determines to be the 45 degree entry point. From this entry it is easy to see aircraft entering on the 45 and adjust left or right to sequence in with the 45 and downwind traffic. As to the OP's question, I avoid descending in the pattern, in fact I avoid the descending turn to the 45 as my 45 location may easily be someone else's wide downwind.

EDIT: as to this creating a "Hot Spot" I agree but it is a well known hot spot as apposed to the wide area of maneuvering to get onto the 45. Also that belly up turning airplane will be extremely easy to see with a large profile view and a changing relative vector.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[CMTowner]

I got my rear chewed out by some older pilot feller at some airport for not being at TPA when I entered once. I had been descending through the 45-degree to TPA, but apparently that wasn't good enough. We were at no risk of having a mid-air or anything, but this guy wanted to tell me how I needed to be doing it.

 

[MadseasoN]

They shouldn't have to, because it's your responsibility to spot and stay clear of them (in front or behind).

The same as crossing at mid-field.

I'm not seeing how that's possible, since they will be coming up from ahead and to your left (in left traffic).

You said that you cross at the end of the runway. On a typical day I can be at or close to TPA at the end of the rwy. Maybe if your rwy is 2K' then I could understand.

That also creates a burning hot spot at the point where the downwind, 45-downwind, and your path meet about midfield downwind, and two of the three planes converging will be belly-up to the other two. I'll pass on that.

Even on the busiest days I haven't seen this situation. Not to say that it cannot happen but I'm more worried about departure/go around traffic. They aren't looking for you at all and you'll still be belly-up to them turning dwind from xwind. The high wings cant see you even if they're looking for you. And you HOPE that they waited to turn before reaching the end of the rwy.

 

[ejensen]

Practice areas are to the east of my home base (FNL). Mountains and city to the west. The flight school like mid-field entries at pattern altitude. I've had more problems caused by this practice than any other including straight in or base entries. I much prefer a cross-wind entry where I have better shot at seeing all the traffic and an easier escape if things go bad.

 

[MassPilot]

I got my rear chewed out by some older pilot feller at some airport for not being at TPA when I entered once. I had been descending through the 45-degree to TPA, but apparently that wasn't good enough. We were at no risk of having a mid-air or anything, but this guy wanted to tell me how I needed to be doing it.

I have a big problem with what the other guy did. No matter what the circumstances, chewing someone out as their setting up to land is messed up. That's the point where you need to be concentrating hard and not be distracted. Getting chewed out is probably going to anger any pilot and make for one hell of a distraction. I'm making the assumption that this was over the radio in the air, but I guess you didn't make that clear.