"Traffic 12:00 5 miles type and altitude unknown "

Geico266 said:
Sorry, Tracey we are being vague and misleading.

Wilco= Will Cooperate
No Joy = Cannot see traffic, looking.
Tally ho = Have traffic in site, will avoid.

None of them are "standard phraseology" as far as I am concerned. You will find a lot of pilots both commercial and GA using terms that are "non standard". Just ask.
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WILCO is standard phraseology, it means "I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it."
 
roncachamp said:
As these terms are directed to controllers by pilots why would it matter that you don't understand them? Isn't it enough that the controller understands them?
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Why do you think that only the controller needs to understand? We all listen to ATC to help situational awareness...
 
Clark1961 said:
Why do you think that only the controller needs to understand? We all listen to ATC to help situational awareness...
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You hear the following on center frequency:

Center - "Skyhawk 9801V, traffic twelve o'clock, five miles, opposite direction, type and altitude unknown."

N9801V - "Negative contact."

Please explain how hearing that exchange helps your situational awareness.
 
roncachamp said:
You hear the following on center frequency:

Center - "Skyhawk 9801V, traffic twelve o'clock, five miles, opposite direction, type and altitude unknown."

N9801V - "Negative contact."

Please explain how hearing that exchange helps your situational awareness.
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Well, gee, it isn't that tough Steve. We've already been listening to the various calls and know where the Skyhawk is and, low and behold, we realize that we are the opposite direction traffic. We know everything is okay because we already heard the Skyhawk's altitude.

That's what situational awareness is, Steve. It isn't a single call or moment in time, it is the big picture of what is happening around us.
 
Heh. Why not? It's the Internet!

(And my airplane is buried in snow probably unless KAPA plowed my hangar row this time.) ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. Why not? It's the Internet!

(And my airplane is buried in snow probably unless KAPA plowed my hangar row this time.) ;)
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That's such a good explanation that I would not only ask you to post again, i'd help dig out your plane :)
 
Tracey said:
Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?

Just a thought, I certainly don't want to step on toes.:dunno:
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Well, No Joy means that, no joy at finding the traffic, Tally ho means 'I have spotted the enemy and am giving pursuit.' Kinda retarded in a GA environment, and Wilco is standard phraseology for "Will Comply with last order received".

A lot of old habits and phrases from aviation still keep a presence, and learning the new vocabulary is all part of the aviation experience. There's more to learn than just flying the plane. There is an entire history and culture to absorb in addition to even more technical issues than just flying.

It would actually be better for students if we created a glossary-sticky thread where they could look up the terms they aren't familiar with. A sort of 'Urban Dictionary' of aviation terms through history. I had an instructor who would say "Now put the cob to it."... What do you suppose he meant by that?
 
Clark1961 said:
Well, gee, it isn't that tough Steve. We've already been listening to the various calls and know where the Skyhawk is and, low and behold, we realize that we are the opposite direction traffic. We know everything is okay because we already heard the Skyhawk's altitude.

That's what situational awareness is, Steve. It isn't a single call or moment in time, it is the big picture of what is happening around us.
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What an imagination.
 
jnmeade said:
From the Pilot Controller Glossary:

WILCO− I have received your message, understand
it, and will comply with it.

You'll note it is standard phraseology but does not mean you will cooperate, which implies some kind of mutual process, but you will comply which means you will obey. This one is an old military commo term.
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Both of my primary instructors made the point that they think WILCO is underutilized. Too many pilots reply with "roger" (meaning only that the transmission has been received) when "wilco" would be more appropriate. I think Bob G. has talked about that also, either here or in his book.
 
BrianR said:
Both of my primary instructors made the point that they think WILCO is underutilized. Too many pilots reply with "roger" (meaning only that the transmission has been received) when "wilco" would be more appropriate. I think Bob G. has talked about that also, either here or in his book.
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I catch myself using the Aussie term 'No Worries' now and then and once when I recognized the Aussie accent on a controller here I gave a 'no wakkas' which got a good laugh.

Personally I think Wilco has gone away largely due to the spread of the radar environment. You don't really need to answer up, the controller will see you respond. Sometimes going into a busy airport the controller doesn't even stop and unkey between planes/instructions.
 
Henning said:
"Now put the cob to it."... What do you suppose he meant by that?
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I've not heard that expression in quite a while. Growing up on the farm, cobs were known as a quick source of heat. If you threw some cobs in the furnace or the steam boiler of the traction engine or of a locomotive, you'd get some very high temperatures right away. The heat didn't last long, though, as they burned out quickly.
Mostly, we used cobs to fire the tank heaters to melt ice from the stock tanks in the winter.

"Put the cobs to it" meant open the throttle all the way when I grew up.
 
I don't know about anybody else, but I find that, generally, it's hard for me to see other GA traffic during the daytime until they are within 2 miles, even if I know where to look for them. If the G1000 TIS or ATC calls out traffic 5 miles away, or 3 miles away, if it's your typical sized GA plane (Piper, Cessna, Mooney, Beech, etc.), it's hard to spot them any further out than that.
 
BrianR said:
Both of my primary instructors made the point that they think WILCO is underutilized. Too many pilots reply with "roger" (meaning only that the transmission has been received) when "wilco" would be more appropriate. I think Bob G. has talked about that also, either here or in his book.
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I use wilco a lot and the last time I transmitted a "Roger" on the radio was when someone asked me who I bought my Bonanza from and my answer was "Roger Frick". For some reason I don't understand, a lot of pilot's I know seem to think that "Roger" is a useful response and "Wilco" is somehow outdated.
 
One time I was in the 152 on my way home from central Texas. Going thru the Austin area I heard approach advise: Large and heavy jet guy 1234 you have a Cessna at your 1:00 opposite direction.... The capt. Replied, "yeah and I bet it's white..."
Well, I was new and worried about it so I started rolling back and forth so that the wings would be broad side off and on in hopes he could then see me.... Sure enough in a moment the big guy said, "I think that little cessnas waving at me."
So I keyed my mike and said "welcome to Austin, sir." The ATC guys all keyed their mikes and I heard some laughter. hey, it's Austin after all....

So, yes, when you are on flight following and they call you out to the other guy and then him out to you it helps SA id everyone uses similar terms. But frankly by the time a person gets their PP I would think they have all heard about no joy and tally ho,maybe
 
My last military flying was a while ago (1985) but a lot more recent than the Battle of Britain and Spitfires. Those terms were taught, commonly used, and fully understood at that time:

tally ho: Traffic/Bogey/Target in sight
no joy: (above) not in sight
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I don't know about anybody else, but I find that, generally, it's hard for me to see other GA traffic during the daytime until they are within 2 miles, even if I know where to look for them. If the G1000 TIS or ATC calls out traffic 5 miles away, or 3 miles away, if it's your typical sized GA plane (Piper, Cessna, Mooney, Beech, etc.), it's hard to spot them any further out than that.
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According to my Zaon MRX manual, most GA aircraft are too small to see beyond about 2 miles. My own experience seems to confirm that.
 
jnmeade said:
I've not heard that expression in quite a while. Growing up on the farm, cobs were known as a quick source of heat. If you threw some cobs in the furnace or the steam boiler of the traction engine or of a locomotive, you'd get some very high temperatures right away. The heat didn't last long, though, as they burned out quickly.
Mostly, we used cobs to fire the tank heaters to melt ice from the stock tanks in the winter.

"Put the cobs to it" meant open the throttle all the way when I grew up.
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Quite correct all around, luckily I knew the expression, but really, using steam engine terminology teaching flying?:dunno:
 
jnmeade said:
I've not heard that expression in quite a while. Growing up on the farm, cobs were known as a quick source of heat. If you threw some cobs in the furnace or the steam boiler of the traction engine or of a locomotive, you'd get some very high temperatures right away. The heat didn't last long, though, as they burned out quickly.
Mostly, we used cobs to fire the tank heaters to melt ice from the stock tanks in the winter.

"Put the cobs to it" meant open the throttle all the way when I grew up.
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Why not use:

  • "Give her the spurs!"
  • "Loose t'gallants!"
  • "Mainsail haul!"
  • "Get on the rivet!"
  • "Turn the pedals in anger!"
  • "War power!"
?
 
I hear "we'll peddle faster" from pro airline crews all the time in response to speed change requests from ATC.
 
Rex Kramer said:
4 pages?
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5 now lol. All I wanted to do was give a small example why I use flight following. And I get 5 pages of people giving advice that didn't even read it, people arguing about "Tally Ho"...and did I read something about fertilizer? WTF?
 
eMKay said:
5 now lol. All I wanted to do was give a small example why I use flight following. And I get 5 pages of people giving advice that didn't even read it, people arguing about "Tally Ho"...and did I read something about fertilizer? WTF?
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EmKay, your synopsis is hilarious. I'm laughing out loud over here, very funny.
 
eMKay said:
5 now lol. All I wanted to do was give a small example why I use flight following. And I get 5 pages of people giving advice that didn't even read it, people arguing about "Tally Ho"...and did I read something about fertilizer? WTF?
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Hey, it's an internet forum where the shortest path between two subjects is a single post.
 
dmccormack said:
Why not use:

  • "Give her the spurs!"
  • "Loose t'gallants!"
  • "Mainsail haul!"
  • "Get on the rivet!"
  • "Turn the pedals in anger!"
  • "War power!"
?
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Well, growing up on an Iowa farm, we had corn cobs after we ran the sheller. We've been known to spur our horses but I have to confess I've not run across any of the other phrases. :)
 
dmccormack said:
Why not use:

  • "Give her the spurs!"
  • "Loose t'gallants!"
  • "Mainsail haul!"
  • "Get on the rivet!"
  • "Turn the pedals in anger!"
  • "War power!"
?
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If we're going sailing terms, you missed my favorites; "set the studs" and "shake the golly".
 
I'm using "WAR POWER!" I don't know for what yet, but I'm gonna work it in somehow.
 
I didn't see this mentioned yet.

If I have no contact on traffic close to me (esp coming head on) I flip my landing light on. Helps even in the daytime.

One day I was flying north along a beach at 1400 feet, on FF, had a southbound (along the beach) airplane called out to me. both of us were on FF. When it got to 3 miles and no contact (controller advised I descend), landing light goes on. Other guy saw me immediately.
 
dell30rb said:
I didn't see this mentioned yet.

If I have no contact on traffic close to me (esp coming head on) I flip my landing light on. Helps even in the daytime.

One day I was flying north along a beach at 1400 feet, on FF, had a southbound (along the beach) airplane called out to me. both of us were on FF. When it got to 3 miles and no contact (controller advised I descend), landing light goes on. Other guy saw me immediately.
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5 pages this took. This is good advice, I will use this thanks.
 
eMKay said:
5 now lol. All I wanted to do was give a small example why I use flight following. And I get 5 pages of people giving advice that didn't even read it, people arguing about "Tally Ho"...and did I read something about fertilizer? WTF?
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Pretty much standard .... "Tally Ho on BS!" (fertilizer) :rofl:
 
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eMKay said:
I'm using "WAR POWER!" I don't know for what yet, but I'm gonna work it in somehow.
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It probably should have been War Emergency Power. WWII fighters commonly had a stop at maximum normal power on the throttle quadrant formed by a light wire. Pushing the throttle past that point, breaking the wire, gave War Emergency Power.
 
eMKay said:
I'm using "WAR POWER!" I don't know for what yet, but I'm gonna work it in somehow.
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To be authentic I think you need to use "War Emergency Power".

One of my dad's WWII stories (he was a flight engineer on the first group of B29s) was a fully (over)loaded takeoff after the brakes had been changed. Apparently they were adjusted a little too tight and the resulting drag caused the airplane to stop accelerating several mph shy of liftoff speed. The captain called for war emergency power which I think involved breaking some safety wires on the turbocharger controls and once my dad cranked in an extra 20-30 psi of boost the plane leaped into the air and it took all the strength of both pilots to keep the nose from going high enough to stall the wings.
 
gismo said:
One of my dad's WWII stories (he was a flight engineer on the first group of B29s) was a fully (over)loaded takeoff after the brakes had been changed. Apparently they were adjusted a little too tight and the resulting drag caused the airplane to stop accelerating several mph shy of liftoff speed. The captain called for war emergency power which I think involved breaking some safety wires on the turbocharger controls and once my dad cranked in an extra 20-30 psi of boost the plane leaped into the air and it took all the strength of both pilots to keep the nose from going high enough to stall the wings.
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This is exactly how the Yak-42 crashed last October in Yaroslavl, killing 39 (all aboard except 1). One of the crew placed feet incorrectly, presumably due to insufficient transition training from Yak-40, which has different pedals. The slight braking created enough nose-down moment that although the airplane reached the takeoff speed, it would not lift the nose. Instead of aborting, the crew cranked full nose-up trim. When they overran the runway, the braking force ceased in the mud, the plane pitched up violently, stalled, and crashed into Volga river. I would say your dad was really lucky.
 
So am I the only one to get a traffic call with "type, altitude and direction unknown" in it?

Fwiw it was at 12:00 and 5miles and id had it in sight for a while.

My responce was "81 echo has the blimp in sight"
 
eMKay said:
And I get 5 pages of people giving advice that didn't even read it, people arguing about "Tally Ho"...and did I read something about fertilizer? WTF?
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...and corn cobs. :rolleyes2:
 
Geico266 said:
Let's not panic here. This is why you scan the sky, and stay at your assigned altitude. Relax and keep your scan going, do not on fixate on one area looking for one specific traffic call out. The controller will update you if the situation warrants.
;)
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roncachamp said:
They shouldn't. If you don't report spotting the traffic and the controller believes you are in unsafe proximity to it he should issue a safety alert and advise on a course of action.
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My closest near miss was a flight returning home in the morning, sun on the horizon. ATC (female controller) gives 5 miles and opposite direction callout altitude unknown. Few seconds later 3 miles, altitude unknown .... then a higher pitch 2 miles YOUR altitude.

My response on the first report was that I was looking directly into the sun and had no chance of spotting the other AC. My request for a vector at the 3 mile call out was met with "unable to provide a vector for traffic avoidance." At the one mile callout, I banked and descended (to the right) ... at that moment my angle to the sun was changed enough for me to distinctly see the pilot as he passed off my left wing. After the event a male voice (supervisor I guess) came on and stated that they could not provide a resolution vector as both AC were on direct course at one another and the concern that the controller would actually steer me into the other AC as AC#2 was not FF. Also, apparently the other AC changed altitude.
 
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