"Traffic 12:00 5 miles type and altitude unknown "

jnmeade said:
No joy means what to a Chinese or German flight school student? Hopefully they've been taught "negative contact". This is like "repeat". What does it mean? If you are in the Army, it means "shoot the last mission against" and is used for artillery. You woudn't want to say "repeat' if you really meant "say again". But, somebody said words mean just what you want them to, nothing more, nothing less.
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When transmitting information about advisory traffic you are talking to ATC not students. ;)
 
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Piloto said:
Many farmers spray insecticide before planting to avoid killing the harvest.

José
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I, too, wonder if this is a joke. Spraying anything on a field in Buffalo this time of year isn't helpful. It will land on the snow and one won't know how much (if any) made it into the soil and how much ran off with the snow melt.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I, too, wonder if this is a joke. Spraying anything on a field in Buffalo this time of year isn't helpful. It will land on the snow and one won't know how much (if any) made it into the soil and how much ran off with the snow melt.
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Snow? What snow? :lol:
 
eMKay said:
Snow? What snow? :lol:
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Dry year for you guys too? We just got 10 inches yesterday, the first real accumulation all season.

Or did you get the usual several feet of lake effect snow and are just poking fun at my reply to Piloto? :)

EDIT: I just saw the Penn Yan thread photographs and I see it was a strange year in New York too.
 
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Flight Following is an aid -- not protection.

I'm actually not as concerned about A/C announced while cruising along -- there's usually plenty of time and the airplanes we're conflicting with are slow.

Near an airport - that's another story...

A good reason to descend to pattern altitude before you reach the pattern is that it's very hard to spot airplanes looking down, and far easier if they are against the backdrop of the sky.
 
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Jim Logajan said:
Grampa, tell us again about the time you shot down two ME-262s with your Spitfire!
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Doubt many Spitfires shot down ME-262's as they did not have the range and for the most part ME-262's operated over Germany. Now if Grandpa were flying a P-51, that would be different.

I hear pilots, including the pros using "No Joy" all the time. I don't use it as I prefer negative contact, but it is short, to the point, and controllers understand it.
 
Anthony said:
Doubt many Spitfires shot down ME-262's as they did not have the range and for the most part ME-262's operated over Germany. Now if Grandpa were flying a P-51, that would be different.
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Perhaps the range problem was alleviated a bit by airfields on the continent becoming available after the battle for Normandy.

"Spitfires also acted as fighter-bombers in support of the British Second Army's drive to the Rhine. During the ill-fated Arnhem operation and on subsequent resupply flights, they escorted the transport aircraft. On 5 October, the first Me-262 jet fighter to be shot down was credited to the Spitfires of No 401 Squadron."
 
jnmeade said:
In Buffalo, NY in February? I assume this is a joke? Few farmers spray insecticide from airplanes this far north. Mostly we spray fungicide. Sometimes herbicide. Very rarely we seed and fertilize, but that is mostly done with rice or other southern crops. Down south they may spray insecticide, I don't know. But I assure you there are no insects out in Buffalo at this time of year.
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Oh...but they are there. They are in hibernation (or larvae stage) on the ground or trees. To be effective you want to kill the larvae on the ground before they mature and fly away.

In general, insects are able to survive cold temperatures easiest when the temperatures are stable, not fluctuating through alternate thaws and freezes. Many insects can gain shelter and nourishment through the winter in a variety of micro-habitats. Among these niches are under the soil, inside the wood of logs and trees, and even in plant galls. One kind of fly is known by fishermen to be present in certain galls in winter, and the fly larvae are consequently used as fish-bait. Blankets of snow benefit insects by insulating the ground and keeping the temperature surprisingly constant. Honeybees have been studied during the winter and are found to remain semi-active in hollow trees through the generation of body heat. The consumption of up to 30 pounds of stored honey during the winter months makes this possible. Heat energy is produced by the oxidation of the honey, and circulated throughout the hive by the wing-fanning of worker bees. Insects that are inactive during the winter months undergo a state in which their growth, development, and activities are suspended temporarily, with a metabolic rate that is high enough to keep them alive. This dormant condition is termed diapause. In comparison, vertebrates undergo hibernation, during which they have minor activity and add tissues to their bodies.

José​
 
Geico266 said:
Let's not panic here. This is why you scan the sky, and stay at your assigned altitude. The controller did not give direction of flight and you are 5 miles away in a Cessna. This is not a cause for concern. The controler is just doing their job by telling you what is on their screen.

Relax and keep your scan going, do not on fixate on one area looking for one specific traffic call out. The controller will update you if the situation warrants.


;)
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I agree with this assessment. I do not allow myself to get lulled into a sense of security via the big sky theory. That said, 5 miles away and at an unknown altitude is not an imminent threat. Even if you are on an absolute collision course, it is still not likely that you are at the same altitude. Be diligent in your search, but don't ignore the other areas of the sky that you need to be watching.
 
Piloto said:
Oh...but they are there. They are in hibernation (or larvae stage) on the ground or trees. To be effective you want to kill the larvae on the ground before they mature and fly away.

In general, insects are able to survive cold temperatures easiest when the temperatures are stable, not fluctuating through alternate thaws and freezes. Many insects can gain shelter and nourishment through the winter in a variety of micro-habitats. Among these niches are under the soil, inside the wood of logs and trees, and even in plant galls. One kind of fly is known by fishermen to be present in certain galls in winter, and the fly larvae are consequently used as fish-bait. Blankets of snow benefit insects by insulating the ground and keeping the temperature surprisingly constant. Honeybees have been studied during the winter and are found to remain semi-active in hollow trees through the generation of body heat. The consumption of up to 30 pounds of stored honey during the winter months makes this possible. Heat energy is produced by the oxidation of the honey, and circulated throughout the hive by the wing-fanning of worker bees. Insects that are inactive during the winter months undergo a state in which their growth, development, and activities are suspended temporarily, with a metabolic rate that is high enough to keep them alive. This dormant condition is termed diapause. In comparison, vertebrates undergo hibernation, during which they have minor activity and add tissues to their bodies.​


José​
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All that is true, but it's really hard to dose them when there is snow on the ground. too much, and you're wasting the chemical and money. too little, and the compound is not only non-effective but may cause resistant organisms.

The problem with delivering insecticides on snow is that the compounds lands on the surface and runs off with the snow melt- you don't know how much insecticide is being delivered.

You may consider citing your references- you are quoting from http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmnh/buginfo/winter.htm
 
Cap'n Jack said:
All that is true, but it's really hard to dose them when there is snow on the ground. too much, and you're wasting the chemical and money. too little, and the compound is not only non-effective but may cause resistant organisms.

The problem with delivering insecticides on snow is that the compounds lands on the surface and runs off with the snow melt- you don't know how much insecticide is being delivered.

You may consider citing your references- you are quoting from http://www.si.edu/Encyclopedia_SI/nmnh/buginfo/winter.htm
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Snow has a tendency to melt when temp is above freezing.
Interesting your finding on the info but no surprise since most school books info source comes from the Smithsonian library.

José
 
Piloto said:
Snow has a tendency to melt when temp is above freezing.
Interesting your finding on the info but no surprise since most school books info source comes from the Smithsonian library.

José
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Did you read the rest of the post? About snow run-off?

I'm approaching this the wrong way. As you are some sort of expert, please tell me which larvicides or insecticides are aerially applied in winter in places that have snow cover. I'm willing to learn.
 
Geico266 said:
That would be a "Tally ho". I think. :rofl:

"No joy" means I don't see the traffic or boggies.
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http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2007/July/200707_Features_Talk_Radio.html
"Two other terms that shouldn't be in your vocabulary are no joy and tally ho. More tactical than practical, these are military terms that, when translated into the Pilot/Controller Glossary, become negative contact and traffic in sight, respectively. Although they are widely understood thanks to popular culture, they're not in the Pilot/Controller Glossary, and their use is not recommended."​
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Did you read the rest of the post? About snow run-off?

I'm approaching this the wrong way. As you are some sort of expert, please tell me which larvicides or insecticides are aerially applied in winter in places that have snow cover. I'm willing to learn.
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I though you were the expert on the subject since you are showing the classic pesticide flag. My experience on killing bugs is the old fashion way as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jRFPFrkHY I personally use old shoes.

José
 
Jim Logajan said:
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/magazine/2007/July/200707_Features_Talk_Radio.html
"Two other terms that shouldn't be in your vocabulary are no joy and tally ho. More tactical than practical, these are military terms that, when translated into the Pilot/Controller Glossary, become negative contact and traffic in sight, respectively. Although they are widely understood thanks to popular culture, they're not in the Pilot/Controller Glossary, and their use is not recommended."​
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Read the last sentence again. In communicating to ATC the point is to be understood in clear and concise term. Both terms meat that goal. Copy that?

Not recommended by AOPA? :rofl: Trust me, anything coming from AOPA is worthess, and certainly a poor source for trying to make a point.
 
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Geico266 said:
Read the last sentence again. In communicating to ATC the point is to be understood in clear and concise term. Both terms meat that goal.

AOPA? Trust me, anything coming from AOPA is worthess, and certainly a poor source for trying to make a point.
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Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?

Just a thought, I certainly don't want to step on toes.:dunno:
 
Tracey said:
Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?

Just a thought, I certainly don't want to step on toes.:dunno:
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Sorry, "No Joy". :rofl:
 
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Geico266 said:
Read the last sentence again. In communicating to ATC the point is to be understood in clear and concise term. Both terms meat that goal.

Not recommended by AOPA? :rofl: Trust me, anything coming from AOPA is worthess, and certainly a poor source for trying to make a point.
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"Don't use phrases such as "tally-ho" or "no joy." It's not the Battle of Britain and you're probably not a Spitfire pilot."
​
"[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva]USAF Major David M. Sampson is an aircraft owner and 1,100-hour pilot with commercial and instrument ratings. He has served for ten years as an Air Force air traffic control officer, holds a B.S. in Safety from the University of Southern California, and is nearing completion of his Master of Aeronautical Science degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University."[/FONT]
​
[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva][/FONT]http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/183268-1.html
 
Jim Logajan said:
"Don't use phrases such as "tally-ho" or "no joy." It's not the Battle of Britain and you're probably not a Spitfire pilot."
​
"[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva]USAF Major David M. Sampson is an aircraft owner and 1,100-hour pilot with commercial and instrument ratings. He has served for ten years as an Air Force air traffic control officer, holds a B.S. in Safety from the University of Southern California, and is nearing completion of his Master of Aeronautical Science degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University."[/FONT]
​
[FONT=arial,helvetica,geneva][/FONT]http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/183268-1.html
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Whew! For a minute there I thought you were going to quote one of the King tapes.

Avweb? :rofl:

Jim, we are gonna have to choose to disagree. You use the terms talking to ATC you want to use, and I'll do the same.
 
Geico266 said:
Whew!
Jim, we are gonna have to choose to disagree. You use the terms talking to ATC you want to use, and I'll do the same.
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In the meantime, tell me what 'tally ho' means. Does it mean the same thing as 'wilco'?
 
Tracey said:
Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?

Just a thought, I certainly don't want to step on toes.:dunno:
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Probably better not to learn the bad habits to begin with. ;)
 
Tracey said:
In the meantime, tell me what 'tally ho' means. Does it mean the same thing as 'wilco'?
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Sorry, Tracey we are being vague and misleading.

Wilco= Will Cooperate
No Joy = Cannot see traffic, looking.
Tally ho = Have traffic in site, will avoid.

None of them are "standard phraseology" as far as I am concerned. You will find a lot of pilots both commercial and GA using terms that are "non standard". Just ask.

Always remember if you ever in a situation you are uncomfortable with or don't understand ATC instructions just say the magic words...... "Student Pilot, please explain" you will get immediate help and clarification. I still use it if I don't understand something. Works every time. ;)
 
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Geico266 said:
When transmitting information about advisory traffic you are talking to ATC not students. ;)
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It would be talking to anyone. We all, including students, gain a lot of situational awareness by overhearing conversations between others, such as ATC and another plane. It's not so good when the others are using slang that we don't understand.
 
Geico266 said:
Wilco= Will Cooperate

None of them are "standard phraseology" as far as I am concerned.
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From the Pilot Controller Glossary:

WILCO− I have received your message, understand
it, and will comply with it.

You'll note it is standard phraseology but does not mean you will cooperate, which implies some kind of mutual process, but you will comply which means you will obey. This one is an old military commo term.
 
Tracey said:
Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?
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I'd never heard of "tally ho" either, until I started reading here. (Actually no, that's not true, it was used on one of the old Star Trek episodes. I thought it was from fox hunting.)

Anyway my primary CFI taught me "no joy" and "tally" (NOT tally ho, just tally) as alternatives for "negative contact" and "traffic in sight". That's because the school where I trained was located in Selfridge ANG's airspace (KMTC) and both military and non-military pilots used those phrases all the time with the Selfridge controllers.

I preferred them because they were short, two syllables each, and kinda fun to say. But once when I tried "tally" with Flint Approach I got "say again, I don't understand that response". THAT cured me, then and there, and I've never used it since.
 
Tracey said:
Can I pipe in here and say that as a student pilot, I had no idea what 'no joy' and 'tally ho' mean? (I still don't know what 'tally ho' means). So maybe for the students out there it's better to use regular terms?
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As these terms are directed to controllers by pilots why would it matter that you don't understand them? Isn't it enough that the controller understands them?
 
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