Toyota dealer confiscated my car

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
I sent our 03 4Runner to the dealer because it had some warning lights on the dash,

Check Engine
VSC Trac
Trac off

I have been patient and not bothered them too much about it, but they are now fully 2 weeks and no resolution. They say they found the problem, change a part and the next day they say the lights came back on.

I am trying to work out some options -
I could confiscate it back and try another place I guess.
Not sure what would be the best approach.

so far they have worked on or changed:
gas cap
fuel tank breather line
charcoal canister
some valve
yaw sensor


I suggested today that they change out the computer that is giving the messages.

Is there such a thing as a referral to a specialist??
 
Sent my Wing to the mechanic January 31. Still ain't back. I guess I have to give him some slack, it can't be easy finding parts for a 25 year old machine.

No wisdom for you, sorry. Never had a Toyota break before.
 
Dave,

The dealer - of all places - should be able to read the codes from the engine computer (in more detail than many shops) and identify/fix the problem. Most non-dealer shops have computers that can't read certain of the proprietary codes used by some manufacturers. After 5 years, those Toyota codes should be generally available, though.

Ask the dealer to provide you with a print-out of the code readings, then go to or call some (trusted) shops and ask their opinion as to what to look for. It's probably worth a few $$$ to get other opinions.

You might also try and escalate it up the Toyota food-chain. The regional office ought to have super-mechanics available to help.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I sent our 03 4Runner to the dealer because it had some warning lights on the dash,

Check Engine
VSC Trac
Trac off

I have been patient and not bothered them too much about it, but they are now fully 2 weeks and no resolution. They say they found the problem, change a part and the next day they say the lights came back on.

I am trying to work out some options -
I could confiscate it back and try another place I guess.
Not sure what would be the best approach.

so far they have worked on or changed:
gas cap
fuel tank breather line
charcoal canister
some valve
yaw sensor


I suggested today that they change out the computer that is giving the messages.

Is there such a thing as a referral to a specialist??
Click to expand...

Can you get me the codes Dave, I will explore it further.
 
Dave,

Have you taken your complaint outside the Service Department and talked to the dealer's GM?

http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/b...service-tips-for-getting-your-problem-solved/

Third tip — speaking with the general manager of the dealership is the best thing you can do to help yourself. While there are many managers in a dealership, the GM has the power to solve nearly any problem. The GM can pick up the phone and speak with one of Toyota’s regional executives, authorize an expensive repair, or even decide to warranty a vehicle. Toyota empowers every dealership general manager to act on their behalf — perfect for solving customer service problems. They also tend to have the most experience and maturity in the dealership, making them very easy to work with too.
Click to expand...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I sent our 03 4Runner to the dealer because it had some warning lights on the dash,

Check Engine
VSC Trac
Trac off

I have been patient and not bothered them too much about it, but they are now fully 2 weeks and no resolution. They say they found the problem, change a part and the next day they say the lights came back on.

I am trying to work out some options -
I could confiscate it back and try another place I guess.
Not sure what would be the best approach.

so far they have worked on or changed:
gas cap
fuel tank breather line
charcoal canister
some valve
yaw sensor


I suggested today that they change out the computer that is giving the messages.

Is there such a thing as a referral to a specialist??
Click to expand...

My wife back about 10 years leased a Mercedes E class. Shortly after she got it, they discovered that the battery was cracked and replaced it. Shortly thereafter, she started have bogus warning lights come on, and the car even went into limp home mode a couple of times.

After screwing around with the car for a year or two, the dealer finally figured out that the leaking acid had damaged a wiring harness. When the wiring was replaced the car worked fine.

You might want to have Toyota check the wiring harness(es) for damage (I'm not suggesting that battery acid is the culprit, but there might be damage from some other cause).
 
dave - good god how far do you have to drive to get to a Toyota Dealer??

you been out to the airport this week? a couple iowa guys and PoAers are out helping with the wave camp. wish i could be there.
 
I have a Toyota FJ Cruiser. I knocked the alignment out, and the same lights came on. Had it aligned, reset the codes, and everything was fine.
 
Thanks all for your good ideas, and offers for help.

I called the Svc Mgr today and we discussed it. They seem sincere and promise they are putting it priority 1, calling in outside resources as well.

Tony, yes its a 300mi drive each time and we have done it twice now. I think they have burned a tank of gas doing test runs. I asked about compensating the guy I borrowed a truck from, they said not likely (its got the top warrantee) - I guess that was a wild dream. I think I will just go get it early next week and bring it home.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
... I think they have burned a tank of gas doing test runs. ....
Click to expand...

Remind me of that Texan and New Englander joke.

"Yeahup.... I once had a truck like that, too."








(The Texan said, "I got so much land, I can get my truck, drive all day long, and still be on my property.")
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
I sent our 03 4Runner to the dealer because it had some warning lights on the dash,

Check Engine
VSC Trac
Trac off

I have been patient and not bothered them too much about it, but they are now fully 2 weeks and no resolution. They say they found the problem, change a part and the next day they say the lights came back on.

I am trying to work out some options -
I could confiscate it back and try another place I guess.
Not sure what would be the best approach.

so far they have worked on or changed:
gas cap
fuel tank breather line
charcoal canister
some valve
yaw sensor


I suggested today that they change out the computer that is giving the messages.

Is there such a thing as a referral to a specialist??
Click to expand...

Could be a speed sensor on a wheel.... Look at the last post here. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=687115&highlight=vsc+trac OR for a LOT of details.... http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=32818&highlight=vsc+trac+vsc+off
 
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I'm having a similar problem with the Ford dealer, I feel your pain. Except I'm going to pick my truck up tomorrow if they don't have an answer, and I dropped it off Monday. I am less patient.

I take my truck to the dealer not because I can't fix it, but because I don't want to and because I want to just give it to someone who can fix the problem quickly, albeit expensively. When I get an answer of "We don't know what's wrong" that is unacceptable. That was not an answer that we gave our customers when I was a Jaguar tech. We were expected to fix the cars, and we did.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I sent our 03 4Runner to the dealer because it had some warning lights on the dash,

Check Engine
VSC Trac
Trac off

I have been patient and not bothered them too much about it, but they are now fully 2 weeks and no resolution. They say they found the problem, change a part and the next day they say the lights came back on.

I am trying to work out some options -
I could confiscate it back and try another place I guess.
Not sure what would be the best approach.

so far they have worked on or changed:
gas cap
fuel tank breather line
charcoal canister
some valve
yaw sensor


I suggested today that they change out the computer that is giving the messages.

Is there such a thing as a referral to a specialist??
Click to expand...

Interesting combo, I'd be looking in the traction control system sensors &/or controller. Is this warantee work, or are they billing you? If this is the dealer and they're billing you, they are stealing from you. If this is warantee work, they are stealing from Toyota. They are changing out inappropriate things and looking in the wrong direction. The "Check Engine" light is basically a Master Fault light in that anything that goes wrong, and that light comes on. They should be able to pull the codes off the vehicle, and even if that's not right, the combo they're getting on the dash should send them looking at the traction control system. Sinse the wheel speed sensors are the weakest part of the sytem, that is where they should have started. They are either morons or thieves (or both).
 
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My mother owned an Oldsmobile(from new) on which she had put 20+ thousand miles, but less than the warranty parameters. The fuel indicator began a problem, so she took it back to the dealer -- BIG one in Phoenix/Scottsdale. The svc. mgr. told her it would be necessary to remove the fuel tank, "and that removal is not covered under the GM warranty. ??????? Her book said "Bumper to Bumper." I took her VIN to my GM dealer here in Maine and that svc. mgr. told me when she bought it and every time it had been back to the Arizona dealer for any maintenance. I was given an 800 # and told Ma should call it -- General Motors Corporate -- and state her case. And she did. A couple days later Ma received a call from the Gen. Mgr. of the Arizona dealership. Instructions were that the car should be brought in for warranty servicing of the problem. When she appeared with her car she learned that the svc. mgr. had been fired. Wheels that squeak???

HR
 
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This is what I was given today, would this cause anyone pause?
 

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Let'sgoflying! said:
This is what I was given today, would this cause anyone pause?
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Dave, please say this was all under warranty. All that to me looks like "shot gun troubleshooting." There were times I had to do that when i worked on copiers years ago but I didn't leave a part in if it didn't fix the problem. It would be just plain wrong to stick the customer with all that on top of the labor.

Was the problem even fixed???
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
This is what I was given today, would this cause anyone pause?
Click to expand...

Yes, this causes me great pause. Dave, I've been in the auto business for over 25 years, so allow me to present some opinion.

First, Ken is basically correct with regards to the shot gun approach. If you have already paid for the "repairs", which I assume you did since you are in possession of the RO, please tell me you requested return of the replaced parts. If you haven't already, request return of the parts.

Second, not all of the items replaced were faulty. I'll state that with a sense of confidence.

Third, the fact you were not charged for labor is a big red flag. Generally speaking, if a dealership is "throwing parts" at a vehicle in hopes of repair, the technician obviously spent time working. If the dealership is not charging out labor it is because they are trying to bring the your cost down for "throwing parts" at it. Here's why: once a technician plugs in an electrical component, the parts department will not accept it back for fear all the smoke has been removed from said component. As such, it is cheaper for the service department to absorb the labor than it is the part(s). For example, if the dealership posted labor rate is $90/hour, the better technicians are making somewhere around $35/hour. If a technician spends 3 hours diagnosing and not charging the customer, the service department will eat the 3 hours X $35/hour ($105). You will notice that none of the replaced parts is less than $105 (except the fuel filler lid which is another questionable charge). Hence, it is cheaper for the dealership to absorb the labor than it is the part. While this is good for the dealership, it sucks for the consumer.

Moreover, contacting Gulf States Toyota (the distributor to which the dealership reports) will probably not offer any relief as this was a customer pay repair and not warranty. The "factory" has to be extremely cautious getting between a customer pay customer and the dealership due to stringent franchise laws. That being said, you may wish to request speaking with the District Parts and Service Manger, aka factory rep, to see if Gulf States Toyota will offer any type of goodwill consideration.

If I can be of direct assistance, shot me a PM and I'll help walk you through the process.
 
That is exactly what the Ford dealer wanted to do to my truck. That's why I took it home.

You should take issue with this, they were just throwing parts at the car until it got fixed. This is not diagnostics. What annoys me most about this form of "troubleshooting" is that most factory service manuals have a good problem solving flow chart that allows you to pinpoint what is wrong by following it with reasonable accuracy. If Ford does it for my Excursion, I would find it hard to believe Toyota doesn't do it for the 4Runner...
 
I did not pay a dime, I have the best warrantee they offer. :)

I do think the system is broken if they design cars with all these wonderful indicator-computers built into them, provide the techs with computers to pinpoint the problem, give them the required training.....and it still takes 3 weeks and thousands of $ to fix something like this. Can you imagine what the bill would have been with labor?!

I honestly think there was nothing substantial wrong with the car, it was running fine as far as I could tell. It was just a bunch of idiot lights on. If I had no warrantee, or if it happens again I would/will either ignore the lights or try to pull the bulbs!
 
You had your Yaw Rate Senor changed? Did they also check the Roll Rate Sensor? I didn't know you were having auto-pilot problems! :)
 
Dollars to donuts, it was nothing but a connector problem, and the "repair" effected was by virtue of having disconnected and reconnected the various boxen several times, thus cleaning connector contacts by wiping action.

+++

I had Gulf States Toyota try to deny coverage on a thrown rod at 312 miles total- they said it was because of customer abuse. They- eventually- came around, but if they had not called me (and it was pro bono, these folks could scarcely afford the car payments but decided they would get a new Toyota because "Toyotas never break"), the repair bill would have been something stunning, like $6,000.00.
 
SCCutler said:
Dollars to donuts, it was nothing but a connector problem, and the "repair" effected was by virtue of having disconnected and reconnected the various boxen several times, thus cleaning connector contacts by wiping action.
Click to expand...
During my time in the Navy as an avionics tech, I spent a good part of it as a troubleshooter during launches. I can't tell you how many times a problem was fixed by nothing more than pulling the box and re-seating it in the rack, the primary purpose was re-seating the connectors. Loose connectors were a pain but there were only so many we could safety-wire secure or weather-wrap. Once a plane returned with no fuel flow indications. It was a loose connector. The engine was running normally and landed safely.

So, the question then is... do they even bother disconnecting then reconnecting the component, checking the connector, cleaning and reconnecting? Rather than slapping in a new one? I'm betting not.

This bill may not have cost you but it still stinks. I'd be hard pressed to return to that same dealer.
 
X2 above :)

They converted my MOS from enlisted to officer after I left the Navy.

"After all, most of what you do is just reseat the box and then it works. How hard could that be? Even a JO could do that!"

"Yes, sir, I suppose they could. Reseating a box - yep, even a JO could do that. Knowing which of the 382 WRAs in this airplane to reseat in order to address the particular problem at hand, however, takes a trained technician with proper troubleshooting skills."
 
One thing to remember is, if the MIL is on (often called the 'check engine light'), it is an emissions problem. There are two technical service bulletins (TSB's) on this vehicle that may apply. I can't be sure as I don't know the codes. Any way, there is:
EG005-05 Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC'S P0136/P0156 Set
EG020R-03 Emissions - MIL ON/DTC P0441, P0442/P0446

Just a thought. I shouldn't take a dealer that long to figure out the problem, especially with the wonders of OBD-II
 
bsdunek said:
One thing to remember is, if the MIL is on (often called the 'check engine light'), it is an emissions problem. There are two technical service bulletins (TSB's) on this vehicle that may apply. I can't be sure as I don't know the codes. Any way, there is:
EG005-05 Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC'S P0136/P0156 Set
EG020R-03 Emissions - MIL ON/DTC P0441, P0442/P0446

Just a thought. I shouldn't take a dealer that long to figure out the problem, especially with the wonders of OBD-II
Click to expand...
Not always - the MIL can be flagged by DTCs representing engine problems that don't cause emissions problems (like a misfire or temperature issue), by a problem that causes both performance and emissions problems (like mixture issues), or by a problem that is strictly emissions (like a catalytic converter no longer being efficient).
 
Gulf States Toyota's hangar is about a half block away from ours... You want to come and park your 4Runner on the street in front of it with a large sign on the vehicle explaining the situation? ;)

I bet old man Freekin (yes- thats his name , sp?) gets right on it! ;)

Or maybe he'll at least take you for a ride in one of his toys... P-51D, Lear's , G-5, PC-12's, and several other vintage aircraft... ;)
 
I'm not completely unhappy,
they fixed it; the lights are out (my wife is happy which is a major thing for any husband)
I was charged nothing.
I am out the use of the car for 3 weeks, the mileage they put on it, the gas tank was empty. Can't count the first trip up and back as we would have gone anyway to get it looked at. The second trip was dual purpose too.
It could have been worse. A lot worse.
Also I have had to troubleshoot some very difficult things and see their viewpoint to some extent.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I'm not completely unhappy,
they fixed it; the lights are out (my wife is happy which is a major thing for any husband)
I was charged nothing.
I am out the use of the car for 3 weeks, the mileage they put on it, the gas tank was empty. Can't count the first trip up and back as we would have gone anyway to get it looked at. The second trip was dual purpose too.
It could have been worse. A lot worse.
Also I have had to troubleshoot some very difficult things and see their viewpoint to some extent.
Click to expand...

I think the worst thing would be that they used 300 miles of your warrenty and didn't record it. If you have something break in the first 300 miles after the warrenty expires you have no recourse but to pay it. I really don't like any bill that does not recored everything. (labor, comped or not; Mileage out, etc)
 
TMetzinger said:
Not always - the MIL can be flagged by DTCs representing engine problems that don't cause emissions problems (like a misfire or temperature issue), by a problem that causes both performance and emissions problems (like mixture issues), or by a problem that is strictly emissions (like a catalytic converter no longer being efficient).
Click to expand...
Just a note: Misfire and temperature issues certainly affect emissions. The EPA has designated the MIL only for emissions. Other trouble lights are used for other problems such as system voltage, tire pressure, oil pressure, etc. There are other DTC's that the computer will hold, but you must scan it to see them. In the future, many more systems will be added, as there are codes reserved for body, running grear, electrical systems, etc.
Just FYI.
 
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