Towbar Prop Strike

Katamarino said:
This might work if you only ever fly to normal airports, and stay in the USA. Good luck finding a tow bar at a nice remote grass strip, or pretty much any foreign airport!
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Isn't there a nice 182 tow bar at a remote strip up in Alaska or Canada someplace :) In jest of course! That must have sucked to leave it behind.
 
I do a three-part pre-flight.
1.) Memory items
2.) Consult the checklist
3.) One more looks and feels about right walk around

In your case I think number three would have saved you, it has definitely saved my bacon a couple times. Never a prop strike, but I did notice the tail tie-down still secured once
 
If the renter has to pay out of pocket, I wonder if trying to just purchase the airplane instead would make sense?

Would like to hear an update from original poster.
 
Sinistar said:
Isn't there a nice 182 tow bar at a remote strip up in Alaska or Canada someplace :) In jest of course! That must have sucked to leave it behind.
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There may well still be a resident Cessna towbar at Memaloose airstrip, it's true...! :p:eek:
 
MuseChaser said:
I've got the old style Piper towbar for my Cherokee.. two little curved fingers, and no spring clamp. If you don't hold the towbar up at an angle, it slips out when you DON'T want it to. Hate it. On the other hand... there's no way it would stay attached if it ever WAS left out. Never have, and always check it before AND after preflighting. Guess this is about the only reason in favor of this lame style towbar.
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At first I was with you on this 100%, that towbar ****es me off

timrb said:
On the other hand, I love mine. I know that I will NEVER have to worry about leaving the tow bar attached, because if I let it go, it falls off onto the ground. I've never had much difficulty using it.

Tim
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But after reading this thread I'm leaning more towards this
 
UPDATE FROM OP: Hey guys! Thanks for all the insights and support that y'all have graciously provided! Two weeks ago, I finally received closure to my mistake. The owner's insurance was able to cover all aircraft physical damage; the plane also received a new engine.

Unfortunately, as anticipated, I was obligated to pay for lose of revenue which came out to be over $6k for the 1½ month the plane was out of service. I have already paid the owner in full out-of-pocket. The good news is he is happy to still allow me to rent from him.

Hopefully, my mistake and testimonial will save other new pilots from these headaches.
 
HumbleGuest said:
UPDATE FROM OP: Hey guys! Thanks for all the insights and support that y'all have graciously provided! Two weeks ago, I finally received closure to my mistake. The owner's insurance was able to cover all aircraft physical damage; the plane also received a new engine.

Unfortunately, as anticipated, I was obligated to pay for lose of revenue which came out to be over $6k for the 1½ month the plane was out of service. I have already paid the owner in full out-of-pocket. The good news is he is happy to still allow me to rent from him.

Hopefully, my mistake and testimonial will save other new pilots from these headaches.
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Glad you were able to settle this in a way you are comfortable with.

Typically a renters policy would pick up some of those damages.
 
Hang in there... happened to our club plane years ago... not sure of expenses it was before my days in the club but the member that did it is still very active in the club and a great pilot...
 
Sinistar said:
Try form a new habit...never have the tow bar attached when it isn't in your hand...no matter how tempting...if you need to walk away take it with you.
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That's my habit. I ALMOST did that same thing way back, but checked before starting and found the towbar still hooked up. Now, the Towbar is either in my hand, or hung up in the hangar (I have one in the baggage compartment, too, for trips).

I made it my habit to never hurry the preflight - one messup and it can be very expensive or worse. I don't fly because I have to, or to save time or money. Take your time and enjoy the flight.
 
HumbleGuest said:
UPDATE FROM OP: Hey guys! Thanks for all the insights and support that y'all have graciously provided! Two weeks ago, I finally received closure to my mistake. The owner's insurance was able to cover all aircraft physical damage; the plane also received a new engine.

Unfortunately, as anticipated, I was obligated to pay for lose of revenue which came out to be over $6k for the 1½ month the plane was out of service. I have already paid the owner in full out-of-pocket. The good news is he is happy to still allow me to rent from him.

Hopefully, my mistake and testimonial will save other new pilots from these headaches.
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Good to hear that this has been satisfactorily settled. Thanks for your honesty and sharing this with us.



This has probably been said before, but worth saying again.

After I have loaded passengers, freight and anything else that goes onboard, and get all the doors and hatches closed, and before I enter the plane I walk all the way around the plane and look to see if there is something I forgot. Also last chance to find any fluid leaks. The last door to close is the one I go through.
 
How much of that 6K subrogation claim would a renters insurance have covered realistically?

I remember when I was a college student renter without 6K to my name. Wonder how you get blood from a turnip.
 
hindsight2020 said:
How much of that 6K subrogation claim would a renters insurance have covered realistically?

I remember when I was a college student renter without 6K to my name. Wonder how you get blood from a turnip.
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Simple. You get a judgement for the 6K, then at one point, someone finds you and reminds you.
 
HumbleGuest said:
Unfortunately, as anticipated, I was obligated to pay for lose of revenue which came out to be over $6k for the 1½ month the plane was out of service.
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Just curious, was this through subrogation of the owner's insurance company or an agreement you had with the owner?
 
Tantalum said:
I do a three-part pre-flight.
1.) Memory items
2.) Consult the checklist
3.) One more looks and feels about right walk around

In your case I think number three would have saved you, it has definitely saved my bacon a couple times. Never a prop strike, but I did notice the tail tie-down still secured once
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My primary instructor always had you do the whole checklist, and then get 20-30' back and just look at the whole plane before you saddle up to take off.
 
idahoflier said:
Just curious, was this through subrogation of the owner's insurance company or an agreement you had with the owner?
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Owner agreement, I’d say. Insurance wouldn’t subrogate for loss of revenue.
 
HumbleGuest said:
UPDATE FROM OP: Hey guys! Thanks for all the insights and support that y'all have graciously provided! Two weeks ago, I finally received closure to my mistake. The owner's insurance was able to cover all aircraft physical damage; the plane also received a new engine.

Unfortunately, as anticipated, I was obligated to pay for lose of revenue which came out to be over $6k for the 1½ month the plane was out of service. I have already paid the owner in full out-of-pocket. The good news is he is happy to still allow me to rent from him.

Hopefully, my mistake and testimonial will save other new pilots from these headaches.
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Glad you were able to settle this in a way you are comfortable with.

Typically a renters policy would pick up some of those expenses.

hindsight2020 said:
How much of that 6K subrogation claim would a renters insurance have covered realistically?
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They pay for damages you are liable for , sometimes the mere fact that the FBO has to deal with an insurance Co and their lawyers causes those additional claims to disappear. That includes unreasonable 'loss of use' charges . If a trainer netted 3k after expenses every month, Goldman Sachs would own and rent out all of them.......
Insurance doesn't pay for things you agreed to pay via contract. So if that liability for 'loss of use' arises out of a provision in the rental contract, they may balk. Insurance will pay a certain amount of deductible, in Avemcos case $1000.
The bigger benefit of a liability policy is the pre-paiid legal defense.
 
weilke said:
Glad you were able to settle this in a way you are comfortable with.

Typically a renters policy would pick up some of those expenses.



They pay for damages you are liable for , sometimes the mere fact that the FBO has to deal with an insurance Co and their lawyers causes those additional claims to disappear. That includes unreasonable 'loss of use' charges . If a trainer netted 3k after expenses every month, Goldman Sachs would own and rent out all of them.......
Insurance doesn't pay for things you agreed to pay via contract. So if that liability for 'loss of use' arises out of a provision in the rental contract, they may balk. Insurance will pay a certain amount of deductible, in Avemcos case $1000.
The bigger benefit of a liability policy is the pre-paiid legal defense.
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So if there was a 'loss of use' subrogation clause in the rental contract, it would then appear that the OP would still be out of luck and his hypothetical renter's insurance would have covered diddly squat of that 6k. That's a pretty big hole in coverage then, if one can be liable for whatever made up loss of use number the airplane owner pulled out of his rear, and renter's insurance doesnt cover it. And people have the temerity to say renting is cheaper.

Now, I think if I'm picking up what you're putting down with the Goldman Sachs comment, you're saying the presence of a renter's insurance poking and prodding might have tempered what essentially amounts to an unreasonable loss of use claim to the tune of 6k?
 
I've never hit the towbar with the prop, but I did shut the hangar on mine and it smashed the cordless drill that is the motive force on the thing. It's amazing how many little gears and gizmos are inside those things.
 
hindsight2020 said:
So if there was a 'loss of use' subrogation clause in the rental contract, it would then appear that the OP would still be out of luck and his hypothetical renter's insurance would have covered diddly squat of that 6k.
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Possibly. No way of knowing without reading the actual policy document and without submitting the claim to the insurer. I never had to file a claim against any of the non-owned policies I have held with Avemco, Starr and USAIG, I would have to check whether I still have the policy forms and whether they say anything about loss of use. It's entirely possible that insurers would pay a reasonable allowance for 'loss of use'. Last week, someone rear ended my wife's company Accord. The other parties insurance provides her a rental, but it's just 'appropriate transportation' (a Kia), not a 1:1 replacement for her car.

Now with a liability you incurred by signing a rental contract, there is always the option to say 'bite me' and to see whether the FBO goes through the trouble to sue you. For a $6000 dispute, it is rarely worth going to court for unless its 'out of principle'. The problem is that you then have to proove that you lost 6k to a judge who may or may not understand the difference between 'gross' and 'net' loss.

That's a pretty big hole in coverage then, if one can be liable for whatever made up loss of use number the airplane owner pulled out of his rear, and renter's insurance doesnt cover it. And people have the temerity to say renting is cheaper.
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My former partnership just went through a tow-bar boo-boo. I wish the repairs had been as quick and the bill as modest as what the OP is looking at.

Now, I think if I'm picking up what you're putting down with the Goldman Sachs comment, you're saying the presence of a renter's insurance poking and prodding might have tempered what essentially amounts to an unreasonable loss of use claim to the tune of 6k?
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6k for 6 weeks loss of use suggests that the owner claims that he nets 1k a week out of his rental aircraft. Unless that is his only aircraft and he can make a claim that he was unable to pick up the hours on the remainder of his fleet, that seems a bit rich. 52k/year just for renting out a trainer, I think I would want to get a piece of that. Explaining that claim to an insurance adjuster rather than a student may net a lower number.
 
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No way I would have agreed to $6k. I’d pay the $1k deductible and tell him to enjoy the new engine and prop. Wow I just stumbled upon this thread. A similar incident to this happened at my old airport. The rental Warrior recently had a fresh overhauled engine installed and had about 100 hours total. Renter started it up with the damn tow bar attached... Yup the motor was sent back down for another overhaul.


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Several years ago, a friend on my hangar row with a Trinidad had a gear up landing. Airframe repair and new engine resulted. They had pulled the plane out of the hangar one day and were ready to to start the engine. I noticed the towbar was still attached and ran out/yelled/waved to stop. He sat calmly and asked me to remove the towbar. Then off they taxied (plane had not left the ground since the gear up, this was apparently a move across the ramp to maintenance). He never said a word (even a thanks) about this afterward.


Never leave a towbar attached to your airplane.
 
For years there was a towbar lying on the flat roof of a warehouse beneath the KOAK North Field traffic pattern. I don't know if it's still there, but it was a constant reminder to do a good pre-flight inspection.
 
Stan Cooper said:
For years there was a towbar lying on the flat roof of a warehouse beneath the KOAK North Field traffic pattern. I don't know if it's still there, but it was a constant reminder to do a good pre-flight inspection.
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Now that is a story that might be really interesting.
 
Clip4 said:
Do not report to NTSB.
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But do send in an ASRS report. There's no need to protect yourself in this case (it's not an enforceable action), but it's always nice to give other pilots a chance to learn from what happened to you, just like you're doing by posting here.

And if it helps, there but for the grace of god go an awful lot of us. I came very, very close to doing that years ago, but had a funny feeling while I was reaching for the mags, so I decided to get out and take another look. Now, like other people have suggested, I always do a last quick walk around looking just for big, obvious "killer items" (towbar, chocks, pitot cover on, fuel caps loose, cowling unfastened, etc).
 
I think that is the wrong mental set to have, that a walk around is going to catch a tow bar left attached. That's sort of backward, once you put a tow bar on the nosewheel don't walk away with leaving it attached, ever. Catch the problem before its a problem, and don't be in a hurry, Then a last minute walk around can have value also. I bet some pilots have done a walk around and never saw the tow bar on the nosewheel.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
I think that is the wrong mental set to have, that a walk around is going to catch a tow bar left attached. That's sort of backward, once you put a tow bar on the nosewheel don't walk away with leaving it attached, ever. Catch the problem before its a problem, and don't be in a hurry, Then a last minute walk around can have value also. I bet some pilots have done a walk around and never saw the tow bar on the nosewheel.
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I suspect that's true. I never left a towbar attached, but I was in the habit of replacing the pitot tube cover and catching it on the final walk-around, until one day when I didn't catch it until I was checking the flight controls at the run-up spot. I had done the walk-around, but just didn't notice the pitot tube cover until after engine start and taxiing some distance. Would have been quite a shock to have to abort due to airspeed not alive, or worse, not catching it until after takeoff.
 
Bill Jennings said:
The last thing I normally do before startup is hit the head, and I get a good look at the plane as I walk back.
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Well, if you missed the tow bar, I don't want to use the same urinal that you used.... :lol::lol:

But yes, the final walk around for me is like a secondary pre-flight. I look to see what doesn't look right.
 
UPDATE FROM OP:

Unfortunately, this prop strike incident has risen back from the dead.

3 months have passed since I paid the owner $6500 for "loss of revenue" (as stated in my previous be post). However, I just received a letter directly from the owner's insurance company stating that they "have become subrogated to the rights of recovery" and are seeking to get over $15k out of me which is what they paid their insured/the owner to cover the aircraft damages.

I thought this incident was completed settled with, but instead I get this worse news 3 months later. The rental contract that I have with the owner didn't even have a "loss of revenue" clause, so I suspect that $6500 that I gave the owner was milked off me. Now, his insurance is trying to get some too! According to my limited life experience as a college student, I believe the best course of action is to unfortunately initiate a civil litigation case that will probably be painful and stressful.
 
I know nothing about nothing.

But I think it would be worth it to talk to whoever is your insurance agent (or your parents, not sure what the limits of coverage are if you're in college). At least get the opinion of your/your parent's insurance. And, probably unlikely, but maybe you have existing coverage that comes into play in this kind of situation (I dunno, some kind of umbrella policy maybe)?

If nothing else, you at least get what is hopefully a more informed opinion.

Then, it may be time to sit down with a lawyer.
 
I'm not trying to be flippant, but when I was in college I was a renter, and I didn't have any assets or cash liquidity beyond hand to mouth. As such, I never gave second thought to the threat of subrogation recovery in the event of a dinged airplane. I felt pretty insulated from someone wanting to extract 15K in damages from me. Are you that well off as a college student that these kinds of subrogation claims can actually touch you? And you didn't have non-owner insurance? Yikes my man.

It's ironic, but the more money I have, the less I can afford to bump into other people LOL.
 
As a claims guy, subrogation is alway an option legally. But flying clubs assume the risk when they rent aircraft to new pilots and trainees. I’ve had total losses on flying club planes and I’ve never pursued the renter. That’s basically what the club’s insurance is for, and they pass the cost down to the renters through the hourly fee. Also, I’ve never heard of a club owner going after a customer for “loss of revenue”.

Perhaps it is not a club set up but just some guy with a couple planes?

In any case, don’t dismiss the subro inquiry, just call the claims guy and tell him you don’t have any money, and you’re a student without insurance. He probably doesn’t know you paid the owner $6k, so you can use that as a sob story(we are humans too). We always have to look into the possibility of subrogation from the party that caused the damage, it’s our job. But at the end of the day it’s about the bottom line. That adjuster knows that hiring an attorney to go after you will quickly exceed the value of the claim. In fact, no attorneys I work with would even consider taking this case because THEY can’t make money from it. Their cut of 1/3rd of $15k is $5000, which ain’t worth their time. They may write a letter on their letterhead at the behest of the adjuster to shake the tree, but that’s as far as they would go. And unless you actually get sued and served with a lawsuit, the letter means nothing. So a discussion with him may make him just drop it and move on. Frankly I’m surprised he is trying to subro, us aviation claims guys have much bigger claims to deal with on a daily basis.

As far as going after the owner to get your $6k back, it may be worth consulting an AVIATION attorney. This whole thing sounds sketchy as hell, but the feeling I’m getting is that this is not your typical flying club. Granted, the bottom line works both ways; your $6k isn’t worth an attorney’s time, but maybe an hour’s worth of guidance will put it to bed. So it’s worth putting a call into and AVIATION attorney who knows AVIATION. Just google your local aviation attorney. Tell them what you’re dealing with and they will offer some insight. Just let them know that you don’t have real money to spend on their time but need help. I think the subro case can go away, but you may need to eat that 6k.(DISCLAIMER: I’M NOT AN ATTORNEY, AND THIS ISN’T LEGAL ADVICE).


HumbleGuest said:
UPDATE FROM OP:

Unfortunately, this prop strike incident has risen back from the dead.

3 months have passed since I paid the owner $6500 for "loss of revenue" (as stated in my previous be post). However, I just received a letter directly from the owner's insurance company stating that they "have become subrogated to the rights of recovery" and are seeking to get over $15k out of me which is what they paid their insured/the owner to cover the aircraft damages.

I thought this incident was completed settled with, but instead I get this worse news 3 months later. The rental contract that I have with the owner didn't even have a "loss of revenue" clause, so I suspect that $6500 that I gave the owner was milked off me. Now, his insurance is trying to get some too! According to my limited life experience as a college student, I believe the best course of action is to unfortunately initiate a civil litigation case that will probably be painful and stressful.
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