Toughest landing yet

[Salty]

took off to an airport about 40 minutes away in gusty winds this afternoon. Knew coming back home was going to be a handful just based on how much we got thrown around at treetop level on takeoff.

Was supposed to get lunch and refuel, but the weather just kept looking worse and worse so we decided to head back home without lunch.

At about 100 feet the crab angle was so big I decided to check and make sure I had enough rudder for the crosswind, put it to the floor and it still wasn’t quite straight, but pretty close, and I knew the wind would be lower on the ground, so continued the decent.

Only put in half flaps and kept the speed a good 10 knots faster than normal. Right at the treetops the gusts kicked in as expected. The stall horn chirped a bit while the airspeed was almost 20 knots above stall. We were getting kicked around pretty badly. About 20 feet up the wings were rocking so fast I had to grab the yolk with both hands to react fast enough to counter them. After a couple more moments of excitement things calmed down a little. We got one good gust that floated us, and we touched down harder than usual, but it was a pretty good landing right on the center line and we got stopped with half the runway left.

So, I’m happy with the results, but after analyzing the situation, my lesson learned is that I should have gone around at the point where I neede both hands to control the plane. I kept going because I “knew” it was going to settle down any moment, and I was “right” for the most part, but I suspect if we’d gone around, we might have hit a calmer moment to come in. Or, we could have gone to the larger airport nearby with multiple wider runways without as much crosswind.

What if it hadn’t settled down as I expected it too? It would have been a lot more difficult to do the go round......

 

[RyanB]

IMHO, the lesson learned should have been to stay on the ground and bag it for the day.

I flew a Mx run for the owners in a 152 a few months ago. It was the wildest takeoff and climb out I’ve ever experienced in my life, so much so that I felt as though I was in the test pilot realm. It felt like I was on a roller coaster at six flags. Once I got aloft it was just bumpy, but I vowed that I’d never fly in those conditions ever again in a light single.

 

[Salty]

IMHO, the lesson learned should have been to stay on the ground and bag it for the day.

I flew a Mx run for the owners in a 152 a few months ago. It was the wildest takeoff and climb out I’ve ever experienced in my life, so much so that I felt as though I was in the test pilot realm. It felt like I was on a roller coaster at six flags. Once I got aloft it was just bumpy, but I vowed that I’d never fly in those conditions ever again in a light single.

Nah. I don’t believe in only flying in perfect weather.

 

[RyanB]

Nah. I don’t believe in only flying in perfect weather.

I don’t either, but there’s a lot of middle ground between perfect weather and nearly flying beyond the aircrafts’ limitations. Sometimes you have to chalk up your pride.

 

[Salty]

I don’t either, but there’s a lot of middle ground between perfect weather and flying beyond the aircrafts’ limitations. Sometimes you have to chalk up your pride.

It wasn’t that bad based on “all available information”. It was a pleasant flight even the landing at the other airport, with exception of the landing it was a pleasant flight.

 

[N659HB]

Hmmmm. Haven't practiced go-arounds in awhile. Perhaps it's time. I've gotten in the habit of trying to salvage every landing.

 

[Dan Thomas]

In my years at the flight school we had seven or so landing accidents. Every one was due to failure to go around after a bad approach or unmanageable winds.

And by "unmanageable" I mean "outside the pilot's capabilities." In flight training the students' capabilities are lower than they should be after some real-world experience, but not always. There are many skills that degrade over time if they're not practiced. Hours in the logbook don't necessarily translate into experience.

"Unmanageable" can also mean well outside the published crosswind limits for the airplane.

 

[Heftiger]

I would concur with staying on the ground. I’m not at all advocating for fair weather flying only. But in these windy conditions you just don’t know.
I have a friend who approached with gusty conditions like you describe. During the flare he encountered wind shear. Full power for the go around wasn’t enough. A wing dropped and he cartwheeled down the runway. Lived to tell the tale. The lesson was it’s too easy to end up in these situations. His mindset was he would try the approach once and if it didn’t work he’d go to a larger airport. He only got one try.

 

[Tantalum]

published crosswind limits

my understanding is that these are not actually limitations, but just max demonstrated..

Not advocating flying in conditions outside of one's abilities, but the crosswind figures in the POH I do not believe is an actual structural limitation, just what wad demonstrated

 

[Zeldman]

"Unmanageable" can also mean well outside the published crosswind limits for the airplane.

What is "published crosswind limits".??

I have heard of maximum demonstrated crosswinds, but that is just what the wind was on the day the test pilot(s) crosswind demonstration flight.

I understand outside pilots capabilities and would suggest waiting for a better day if a pilot is not comfortable in winds. Some pilots are very capable in strong cross winds.

 

[Fearless Tower]

my understanding is that these are not actually limitations, but just max demonstrated..

Not advocating flying in conditions outside of one's abilities, but the crosswind figures in the POH I do not believe is an actual structural limitation, just what wad demonstrated

That is correct. It’s max ‘demonstrated’ meaning the airplane might be able to handle more, but you are on your own, ie test pilot of sorts above the demonstrated.

 

[benyflyguy]

Hmmmm. Haven't practiced go-arounds in awhile. Perhaps it's time. I've gotten in the habit of trying to salvage every landing.

I’ve gone around with kids throwing up because things were just a little to fast and high for a runway that was new to me (narrower and shorter and uphill).
I look at every approach as a go-around, hand on the throttle just waiting to wall it!

 

[Half Fast]

took off to an airport about 40 minutes away in gusty winds this afternoon. Knew coming back home was going to be a handful just based on how much we got thrown around at treetop level on takeoff.

Was supposed to get lunch and refuel, but the weather just kept looking worse and worse so we decided to head back home without lunch.

At about 100 feet the crab angle was so big I decided to check and make sure I had enough rudder for the crosswind, put it to the floor and it still wasn’t quite straight, but pretty close, and I knew the wind would be lower on the ground, so continued the decent.

Only put in half flaps and kept the speed a good 10 knots faster than normal. Right at the treetops the gusts kicked in as expected. The stall horn chirped a bit while the airspeed was almost 20 knots above stall. We were getting kicked around pretty badly. About 20 feet up the wings were rocking so fast I had to grab the yolk with both hands to react fast enough to counter them. After a couple more moments of excitement things calmed down a little. We got one good gust that floated us, and we touched down harder than usual, but it was a pretty good landing right on the center line and we got stopped with half the runway left.

So, I’m happy with the results, but after analyzing the situation, my lesson learned is that I should have gone around at the point where I neede both hands to control the plane. I kept going because I “knew” it was going to settle down any moment, and I was “right” for the most part, but I suspect if we’d gone around, we might have hit a calmer moment to come in. Or, we could have gone to the larger airport nearby with multiple wider runways without as much crosswind.

What if it hadn’t settled down as I expected it too? It would have been a lot more difficult to do the go round......

I assume, since you're alive to write this, that you were in the Mooney and not the light sport, right?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I don’t either, but there’s a lot of middle ground between perfect weather and nearly flying beyond the aircrafts’ limitations. Sometimes you have to chalk up your pride.

On the other hand, there is such a thing as expanding one’s envelope. But that also takes some judgement to know where the edge is, both pilot and airplane.

 

[Tantalum]

That is correct. It’s max ‘demonstrated’ meaning the airplane might be able to handle more, but you are on your own, ie test pilot of sorts above the demonstrated.

Cool, that's what I thought! I have gone beyond the max demonstrated component in several planes, but it was not in gusty conditions.

Having never actually owned, I tend to operate with a fairly heavy modicum of caution when flying someone else's plane

 

[tawood]

On the other hand, there is such a thing as expanding one’s envelope. But that also takes some judgement to know where the edge is, both pilot and airplane.

^^^This^^^

There was a time in my earlier flying days when I always made the decision to stay on the ground. Problem was my skills then stagnated. There are plenty of options if you fly on a day like Salty described but then find the crosswinds too much for your ability (salty even mentions some other options). I would say “go for it” but remember you have options. You might become a better pilot.

And good job @Salty !

 

[RyanB]

On the other hand, there is such a thing as expanding one’s envelope. But that also takes some judgement to know where the edge is, both pilot and airplane.

I do agree, I just feel that it’s best to gradually increase your margins. If you start out with a crosswind limitation of 6kts and feel competent enough with that, than go ahead and bump it up to 8kts and try to tackle that. Not trying to say what @Salty did was outside of his skill set, it sounds like he did a nice job given the circumstances, I just know that sometimes becoming over confident in ones abilities can lead to big problems, hence my saying that sometimes it’s just better to chalk up your pride and ground yourself for the day.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I learned to fly in CO and later hangared my plane in Cheyenne. I very quickly learned how to fly planes in 30kts+ (even taildraggers) otherwise either A, you wouldn't fly or B, the weather is so unpredictable and volatile you wouldn't be able to find a place to land even after taking off in fantastic conditions.

Then I moved to Wisconsin and everyone cries if the winds are above 10 knots. They gasp and call me a reckless pilot when I'm flying in 15 knots. It's just absurd.

The more you are able to handle adverse conditions the more tools you have in your toolbox should things go unpredictably south. Even fair-weather days can turn bad... and if all you can handle is fair weather flying... then what?

 

[PaulS]

Sorry Salty, it's just hanging there.

 

[PaulS]

BTW, what were the winds? Getting bounced around on final is pretty standard around here about a third of the time. Sometimes you just have to let the airplane do what it's going to do as long as it's trending correctly just fix the big upsets and not stay wings level all times. Sounds like you did a good job, maybe got a little puckered, but that's a good thing, you settled it down and landed. Nice work.

 

[Salty]

Closest airport was 15G23 from 250 and I was landing on 18. Based on what we experienced, I’d say both the wind and gusts were higher when we landed.

 

[Stewartb]

As long as the engine is running well and I can maintain control of the plane? I'll take it to the ground and go around for another pass several times if I think I might time the gusts better or set up the landing better for the conditions. One of the attributes of experience is patience.

 

[Stewartb]

Re: crosswind component. I believe certification rules set a crosswind control requirement at a ratio of crosswind to aircraft stall speed or something along those lines. Demonstrated crosswind is a certification compliance exercise. It is not a limitation. The comments about being a test pilot are incorrect. You're just a pilot.

Edit: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/the-crosswind-component/?amp

 

[Mooney Fan]

took off to an airport about 40 minutes away in gusty winds this afternoon. Knew coming back home was going to be a handful just based on how much we got thrown around at treetop level on takeoff.

Was supposed to get lunch and refuel, but the weather just kept looking worse and worse so we decided to head back home without lunch.

At about 100 feet the crab angle was so big I decided to check and make sure I had enough rudder for the crosswind, put it to the floor and it still wasn’t quite straight, but pretty close, and I knew the wind would be lower on the ground, so continued the decent.

Only put in half flaps and kept the speed a good 10 knots faster than normal. Right at the treetops the gusts kicked in as expected. The stall horn chirped a bit while the airspeed was almost 20 knots above stall. We were getting kicked around pretty badly. About 20 feet up the wings were rocking so fast I had to grab the yolk with both hands to react fast enough to counter them. After a couple more moments of excitement things calmed down a little. We got one good gust that floated us, and we touched down harder than usual, but it was a pretty good landing right on the center line and we got stopped with half the runway left.

So, I’m happy with the results, but after analyzing the situation, my lesson learned is that I should have gone around at the point where I neede both hands to control the plane. I kept going because I “knew” it was going to settle down any moment, and I was “right” for the most part, but I suspect if we’d gone around, we might have hit a calmer moment to come in. Or, we could have gone to the larger airport nearby with multiple wider runways without as much crosswind.

What if it hadn’t settled down as I expected it too? It would have been a lot more difficult to do the go round......

You landed in difficult conditions...... good job.

But, hard to go around at the point you decided to use both hands on the yoke. It was one or the other.... It was drilled in me early on that once configured (landing), and or cleaned up (departure) to never take your hands off the throttle until reaching cruise or shutting down. To this day I live by that, so no dorking around with the flaps during critical phases of flight. I can't recall the last time I had both hands on the yoke as it feels very unnatural to me. But YMMV

 

[Salty]

You landed in difficult conditions...... good job.

But, hard to go around at the point you decided to use both hands on the yoke. It was one or the other.... It was drilled in me early on that once configured (landing), and or cleaned up (departure) to never take your hands off the throttle until reaching cruise or shutting down. To this day I live by that, so no dorking around with the flaps during critical phases of flight. I can't recall the last time I had both hands on the yoke as it feels very unnatural to me. But YMMV

I’ve never done it before, and it did feel totally wrong. But it worked.

 

[danhagan]

I learned to fly in CO and later hangared my planes in Cheyenne. I very quickly learned how to fly planes in 30kts+ (even taildraggers) otherwise either A, you wouldn't fly or B, the weather is so unpredictable and volatile you wouldn't be able to find a place to land even after taking off in fantastic conditions.

Then I moved to Wisconsin and everyone cries if the winds are above 10 knots. They gasp and call me a reckless pilot when I'm flying in 15 knots. It's just absurd.

The more you are able to handle adverse conditions the more tools you have in your toolbox should things go unpredictably south. Even fair-weather days can turn bad... and if all you can handle is fair weather flying... then what?

Same here ... we get HUGE crosswind here at my field, so just tackle it as an approach to probable go-around, and if you have to three times, Las Cruces with multiple runways is only 15 minutes away. Now saying that, I hit a dust devil that was over pavement at Horizon TX (now closed) that turned me about 75* to the runway on short final that was not visible until it moved off pavement and into the dirt. My biggest direct has been 29G34 in the Tiger ... biggest so far in the RV was 19G25 at Austin Exec, and for some reason I was running out of rudder and it wasn't quite 90* to the runway.

 

[CC268]

I learned to fly in CO and later hangared my plane in Cheyenne. I very quickly learned how to fly planes in 30kts+ (even taildraggers) otherwise either A, you wouldn't fly or B, the weather is so unpredictable and volatile you wouldn't be able to find a place to land even after taking off in fantastic conditions.

Then I moved to Wisconsin and everyone cries if the winds are above 10 knots. They gasp and call me a reckless pilot when I'm flying in 15 knots. It's just absurd.

The more you are able to handle adverse conditions the more tools you have in your toolbox should things go unpredictably south. Even fair-weather days can turn bad... and if all you can handle is fair weather flying... then what?

I got my Commercial at one of the local "pilot mill" type schools here that caters to Korean students. I've always received my instruction from either very small Part 61 schools or independent instructors, so it was a first for me to see how the Part 141 side operates (to clarify I was under Part 61, but got to see the Part 141 side of things). I was amazed at how stringent they were about winds. Anyone on the Part 141 side could not fly if the TAF forecasted winds greater than 20 knots. Even if it was beautiful outside, they couldn't fly. I thought that was really bizarre and was kind of a disservice to the students.

I was amazed at how some of the CFIs there (who received all their training at these Part 141 schools) had never flown in any sort of weather or in any "real" adverse wind conditions. There was one guy who worked the front desk sometimes and he would always comment about how windy it was outside (he did this on multiple occasions - winds were no joke less than 10-15 knots). My instructor and I would start joking about it as we left the building lol. This CFI had probably never even flown in winds greater than 20 knots. We were out there doing power off 180s in winds 20G25. Quite frankly, it wasn't a big deal.

Anyways...not trying to paint with a broad brush that all Part 141 folks are like that, but it was interesting to see it play out on multiple occasions.

 

[Mooney Fan]

I learned to fly in CO and later hangared my plane in Cheyenne. I very quickly learned how to fly planes in 30kts+ (even taildraggers) otherwise either A, you wouldn't fly or B, the weather is so unpredictable and volatile you wouldn't be able to find a place to land even after taking off in fantastic conditions.

Then I moved to Wisconsin and everyone cries if the winds are above 10 knots. They gasp and call me a reckless pilot when I'm flying in 15 knots. It's just absurd.

The more you are able to handle adverse conditions the more tools you have in your toolbox should things go unpredictably south. Even fair-weather days can turn bad... and if all you can handle is fair weather flying... then what?

Sounds like Minnesota as well. I purchased my plane from a FAA Inspector. Super nice guy with ATP, CFII et al. The day I arrived (April 2018) it was clear with sustained winds 25 knots with about a ~30 degree crosswind component at Owatonna. While I was comfortable with completing the test flight, I asked what his thoughts were. He basically said the same thing, if we wait for calmer winds, we may never fly in Minnesota.

 

[Tantalum]

Been busy to read the full opening post and the comments, but have been loosely following; I finally got around to reading and getting up to speed. Some of my thoughts are below

how much we got thrown around

Wait, were you alone? Is this the royal we - or were you with someone?

Right at the treetops the gusts kicked in as expected. The stall horn chirped a bit while the airspeed was almost 20 knots above stall. We were getting kicked around pretty badly. About 20 feet up the wings were rocking so fast I had to grab the yolk with both hands to react fast enough to counter them.

*as you put it in your post, this is where I would have gone around. I was taught with no uncertainty to fly with one hand and keep the other on the throttles, especially in takeoff and landing. This way you get (or have) full power and full rich when you need it (and you also don't risk over controlling, I doubt any light single engine GA piston plane ever needs more than 10-15 lbs max of pressure on the yoke / stick / stoke / joystick, whatever). The minute I felt like I need both hands on the stick would have been the bug out time for me. Especially with rocking wings and chirping stall horn at tree tops? No thanks. Time to go around. Obviously you felt you had it, and ultimately you did since you landed.. but that would be also my "regret" (right word?) after flying that day

my lesson learned is that I should have gone around at the point where I neede both hands to control the plane.

YUP!! Glad that was your (main) lesson.. and not to stay home next time

IMHO, the lesson learned should have been to stay on the ground and bag it for the day.

This will depend on everyone and how out of our comfort zone (polite way of saying "scared") someone got. Given that he lived through it, and learned that he should have gone around when he needed both hands, I think that's a more valuable lesson for someone. If he came on the board here telling us that his take away is that he could fly no problem on a day like this I would maybe agree, then you need to re-evaluate your ADM.. but he got a valuable lesson out of it, and that is a real world situation of when a go around would have been appropriate. Plus at least now he really does have (hopefully) a very good understanding of the limits of what he, and his plane while it is in his control, can do. Had he not flown that day he may have missed this learning moment, which could almost get him in more trouble down the line. I'm not totally disagreeing with you, as it will depend ultimately on the individual. I tend to make conservative go/no-go decisions myself, and luckily in 15 years of flying haven't (yet) been in the air wishing I was on the ground (but have had it plenty of times vice versa!)

During the flare he encountered wind shear. Full power for the go around wasn’t enough.

That's too late.. it takes a moment for even a piston to come up to RPM, and these things don't exactly accelerate that fast.. so I'm not surprised that full power didn't instantly give him a 10-15 knot boost. That's why in Salty's post the time to go around was when he was still high enough and had altitude to spare, not mid flair. But lessons be learned, most often the hard way!

 

[Stewartb]

You control speed with elevator, altitude with throttle. Always come in steep enough to manage the conditions. More wind makes steeper more important. The error in the original story was using half flaps and more speed.

 

[Tantalum]

PS
It's the gusts that get you.. I'd much rather land in a dead 20 knot cross wind than 5 knots gusting to 20 straight down the runway. Steady wind you can manage and work with. What sucks is when you are 15 feet off the ground and either get thrown back up in the air, or you lose 15 knots of airspeed and down you go!

 

[Tantalum]

The error in the original story was using half flaps and more speed

Funny, I thought about that too, but I've heard adamant arguments both ways. I personally like to go full flaps anytime I can, because at least in the Cirrus it makes power management easier and you can get a steeper approach, like you say. Go with half flaps and you will be shallow and floating longer. My $0.02

But it is a common training technique in PPL to NOT go full flaps and add half the gust factor to the landing speed in gusty conditions. Maybe it's a C172 thing

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Funny, I thought about that too, but I've heard adamant arguments both ways. I personally like to go full flaps anytime I can, because at least in the Cirrus it makes power management easier and you can get a steeper approach, like you say. Go with half flaps and you will be shallow and floating longer. My $0.02

But it is a common training technique in PPL to NOT go full flaps and add half the gust factor to the landing speed in gusty conditions. Maybe it's a C172 thing

I don’t know about it being a 172 thing. Most likely just a cfi with minimal experience teaching what they were taught by another young inexperienced pilot with a pocket full of certificates and no idea what the heck they are talking about. I learned in 172’s. We never landed with partial flaps due to wind.

 

[Salty]

There’s not a whole lot of difference between half flaps and full flaps in a mooney. But, I will say that’s the first time I’ve used half flaps due to wind, so maybe that added to my trouble, I can’t really say.

I can say that a mooney needs a good deal of muscle in slow flight to move the wings quickly. Is it more than 10 - 15 pounds? I dunno, but I felt I needed more than my left hand to be quick and precise enough. Less about weight and more about precision with the weight making it more difficult to be precise.

 

[Salty]

Not sure what difference it makes, but I was not alone.

 

[TortoiseEnthusiast]

But it is a common training technique in PPL to NOT go full flaps and add half the gust factor to the landing speed in gusty conditions. Maybe it's a C172 thing

Some C172's have those big barn door flaps that extend all the way out to 40 degrees. That can be a handful in gusty winds, and it makes the go around more difficult too. I used 30 degrees for 90% of my landings in the 172. Basically anytime other than when I was either trying to land extra short or I was high on final and needed some help getting down. At least for me, everything about landing that plane was significantly easier with the flaps at 30 instead of 40.

 

[RyanB]

You control speed with elevator, altitude with throttle. Always come in steep enough to manage the conditions. More wind makes steeper more important. The error in the original story was using half flaps and more speed.

Not necessarily. That may be true in your airplane, but not for all. Less flaps and carrying more speed down final is a viable method in gusty conditions and works quite well.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Some C172's have those big barn door flaps that extend all the way out to 40 degrees. That can be a handful in gusty winds, and it makes the go around more difficult too. I used 30 degrees for 90% of my landings in the 172. Basically anytime other than when I was either trying to land extra short or I was high on final and needed some help getting down. At least for me, everything about landing that plane was significantly easier with the flaps at 30 instead of 40.

Yep. I folded a propeller on our Skyhawk due to my habit of "flaps 40" (along with some more links in the error chain ...) You can come in so slow that elevator and aileron authority won't handle a big gust (especially if it comes from your four o'clock!)

 

[danhagan]

Yep. I folded a propeller on our Skyhawk due to my habit of "flaps 40" (along with some more links in the error chain ...) You can come in so slow that elevator and aileron authority won't handle a big gust (especially if it comes from your four o'clock!)

Was waiting for this response - anyone that's been "kicked in the rear" with a head wind changing to tailwind gets EXTRA alert in high wind landings. I had a 29G34 direct cross temporarily hit me as a tailwind on approach and I lost 50 feet instantly (was at about a 100 on short final), I bugged out and clicked the super-AWOS only to hear "updated weather winds 180 39G47" ... landed at the next town up (Las Cruces was midnight - winds calm there), slept in plane until 5 am and headed home in calm winds ... winds at my field were *supposed* to be calm all night during my night currency and initially were.

 

[bgmac]

Here is my toughest landing. Engine failure.... 3 passengers "wife, Mom, and myself" and we all walked away.