Too much airplane?

JCranford

JCranford

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JCranford
I am currently looking at a particular airplane. It doesn't matter what it is. I already know I should buy a Bo. No it doesn't have a chute or an AOA, so its basically scrap at this point anyway.

Having gotten THAT out of the way...

Did YOU buy 'too much plane'? Is your plane too big or too fast or whatever for 80% of your 'mission', but works REALLY well for that other 20%? I'm overly worried about that part of buying for some reason. I also think I'm trying to hit the sweet spot a little too much (may be the sniper in me..).

My thinking is: You can always put LESS in the plane, or go SLOWER, but you cant put in MORE or go FASTER if it wont do it.
 
JCranford said:
I am currently looking at a particular airplane. It doesn't matter what it is. I already know I should buy a Bo. No it doesn't have a chute or an AOA, so its basically scrap at this point anyway.

Having gotten THAT out of the way...

Did YOU buy 'too much plane'? Is your plane too big or too fast or whatever for 80% of your 'mission', but works REALLY well for that other 20%? I'm overly worried about that part of buying for some reason. I also think I'm trying to hit the sweet spot a little too much (may be the sniper in me..).

My thinking is: You can always put LESS in the plane, or go SLOWER, but you cant put in MORE or go FASTER if it wont do it.
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When I was first looking at Bonanzas, I thought they were too much plane.

Boy was I wrong. After getting used to the size, it handles so much better the others I have flown and I love the speed. And with the GAMIs and running LOP, I get better fuel mileage (knottage?) than the 172.

I passed on an A36 because it seemed like too much. It was the first Bo I looked at and I now wish I bought it. It even had factory air conditioning! But I love my V-Tail.
 
Absolutely I did. My primary mission is personal travel with my wife. Occasionally we'll take 2 other people with us, but a lot of our flying is just the two of us. We just upgraded from a 4-seat Super Viking (which admittedly met all of our needs) to a 6-seat Twin Bonanza that'll carry more than I'll ever put in it. Why? Comfort, combined with my desire for some redundancy for night flying. While the Twin Bo is overkill for our mission, it's like flying around in a big ol' Cadillac. Nobody ever says "I wish I was more cramped in here..." It's not the fastest airplane in the fleet, but it makes a respectable speed in extreme comfort (not to mention style...).
 
bradg33 said:
Absolutely I did. My primary mission is personal travel with my wife. Occasionally we'll take 2 other people with us, but a lot of our flying is just the two of us. We just upgraded from a 4-seat Super Viking (which admittedly met all of our needs) to a 6-seat Twin Bonanza that'll carry more than I'll ever put in it. Why? Comfort, combined with my desire for some redundancy for night flying. While the Twin Bo is overkill for our mission, it's like flying around in a big ol' Cadillac. Nobody ever says "I wish I was more cramped in here..." It's not the fastest airplane in the fleet, but it makes a respectable speed in extreme comfort (not to mention style...).
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Wow, Im not looking at THAT much more. Ever regret it?
 
Seems planes can be like houses, sheds, garages, etc. Never can be big enough, or fast enough.

You may think you'll only haul 2 people and doing 130kis is fine. 2 years later your shopping for cabin class twins cause, friends and speed ate nice to have.

So no never too much.

And buy a Duke, cause Dukes are cool.
 
JCranford said:
Wow, Im not looking at THAT much more. Ever regret it?
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I've only had it for about 6 weeks; so far, absolutely not. It's a great flying airplane. But, ask me after some more fuel and maintenance bills, my tune might change :)
 
bradg33 said:
I've only had it for about 6 weeks; so far, absolutely not. It's a great flying airplane. But, ask me after some more fuel and maintenance bills, my tune might change :)
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True. Ill only have one engine to feed, but its a big(ish) one.
 
Yes and no. I spend 99% of my time boring holes in the sky or on a burger run with a friend. A 172 (or heck, even a 152) would likely have been just fine for that.

However, for that other 1%, it's usually a multi day trip with the family to one of our parents' homes. Renting a true four place plane, with daily minimum rentals, made purely renting (or buying small and renting when I needed more) a pain and ultimately wouldn't save much $$$. So we bought a 182. Compared to what many fly on here it is hardly extravagant but compared to what my frequent mission is, it's overkill.
 
Yes you can get too fast if you want to sightsee. The Viking and others do not allow your gaze to linger on ground points of interest, they zip by too fast. It would be nice to have a 100hp high wing to putter around the hills on weekends.
If all your flying is XC, then fast is best.
 
Yes. The cirrus is a hell of a lot of plane. But I wanted something that a) I could grow into and 2) could handle anything I could realistically and safely throw at it.

No regrets at all
 
could always be bigger and faster.....but, never bigger and faster than my budget. o_O
 
ChemGuy said:
Seems planes can be like houses, sheds, garages, etc. Never can be big enough, or fast enough.

You may think you'll only haul 2 people and doing 130kis is fine. 2 years later your shopping for cabin class twins cause, friends and speed ate nice to have.

So no never too much.

And buy a Duke, cause Dukes are cool.
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Unquestionable.
 
My airplane is way too fast for majority of my flying. Most of the time I cruise at around 15" of MAP to save fuel. The difference is.... the speed is there when I want it. The beauty of a fast airplane with lots of power is that they can be flown slow and the power can be pulled back to what ever fuel burn you are comfortable with. You don't have many options with a slow under powered airplane.
 
1) I don't own, and 2) money IS an object, but if money was no object, I'd absolutely own above what I needed.
 
Oh money is definitely in play here. This particular plane is right at the top of the budget we set, but its really really nicely put together.
 
All depends on your budget. I know a guy with a 6 six seat, six cylinder travelling machine that uses it to buzz around town and has to limit his flying due to fuel burn. I know other guy that sometimes does burger runs in a jet. The only time you can buy too much is if it is too expensive to use much.
 
My 2003 Cirrus SR22 ended up being too much plane for my needs/wants/desires/budget.

After moving to N GA I had no real need to go long distances fast, and when you're on a fixed budget and your plane is costing over $200/hr to fly all in, it kinda makes flying for fun problematical.

My solution was to "step up to Light Sport", and it was a great decision. Flying my Sky Arrow is way more economical, simpler, and just more fun.

But that's just my take - others may certainly differ.
 
Eddie, good counter to the 'fast is better' crowd. Right now we have a sporatic need to travel to Oregon, CA, and some East coast places. That may change as life progresses, but right now its a consideration.

Thanks for the opinions! Keep em coming!
 
JCranford said:
Oh money is definitely in play here. This particular plane is right at the top of the budget we set, but its really really nicely put together.
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You know the rules. Bo or not, this is an incomplete thread without pictures, inside and out.

Our Cherokee 140 is a great plane (the dreaded first annual was only $1200), and the history behind the plane is the only reason my wife signed off ownership at all (that and having a partner). So I don't regret buying it, because it's been a great intro to ownership. About 50%-60% of my flying is solo, or with my oldest son, and it is fine for that. But the other half of my mission is to take the other half of my family, and we've already outgrown that, not to mention the times we might want 4 adults or add my mother in law. This has all put me firmly in the camp of buying slightly above your needs.

If certain things fall into place, I may be reaching out to @Ravioli and taking a look at their club Cardinal and Six. Then my opinion may change back to the "rent for the other". Just kinda frustrated right now that I can't take my family up with anything more than 30gals of fuel.
 
It seems like there are only two ways a plane can be "too much plane":
1) Operating and maintaining it is more than you can or want to afford
2) It is too fast and or too complex for you to operate safely
Other than that, you can fly slower in a faster plane (within reason), and you can carry less in a bigger plane.

I will say the "rent for the other 10%/20% of your mission" is a non starter where I live (Orlando, FL area). There is not a twin nor 6 seat single that is available for (solo) rent anywhere close to me. C-172s, PA-28s, Cirrus (ouch!), yes. Even C-182s. But that's it. So if I really wanted to take my family (3 grown kids, one almost grown kid and my wife) I need a twin. Maybe a higher end Bo or C-210. Nada.

John
 
80% or more I fly my Saratoga solo or with my wife. The other 20% of the time I fly my family (wife + 3 young kids). Occasionally (1-2x a year) we take another couple to the beach and are planning a trip to the Bahamas maybe next year.

So yeah, I'd say 80%+ of the time I have too much airplane but I don't care. W&B is never an issue. Even with 4 people on board I can often fill the tanks. I bought the plane at a great price and being fixed gear my maintenance isn't much more than the Cherokee 180 I started in. With an engine monitor (JPI 830) I can go sight seeing and burn 12-13 gph easily. At 145 knots Cruise my "miles per gallon" (or Knottage as stated above :) is easily comparable to slower 4 place piper varieties.

So yeah, in a nutshell, I have too much plane for the vast majority of my missions but don't regret it one bit. It's there if I need it, and I do need it occasionally.
 
JCranford said:
...
My thinking is: You can always put LESS in the plane, or go SLOWER, but you cant put in MORE or go FASTER if it wont do it.
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I agree with this. A couple of years ago I sold my 50% of a C185. Partnered with my brother on that plane for 25 years. It would haul pretty much anything/anyone that would fit it it, operate out of short strips, beaches, etc., was reasonably fast, and if you just wanted to putz around with 1 or 2 people, you could idle back to 2200/18" and not waste a lot of fuel. But when you needed 300hp, it was there, on every single takeoff... :)

I moved and downsized aircraft. And while I don't really miss the 4 seats + big baggage area, I do miss the power, a lot. The old saying is true: you can't have too much horsepower.

On the other hand, when we were much younger, my brother and I partnered on a 310 for a few years. It was wonderful to fly, fast, comfortable, etc. But we decided the operating costs were too high... :) So I guess we bought too much airplane that time.

Good luck.
 
Payload wise yeah, would have been cheaper for me to get a PA18 or similar instead, or even a C180, but I like my 185, always wanted one and if I ever sold it I'd probably even come out a hair ahead Compared to my purchase price
 
With the majority of the GA aircraft, can't you just pull back the throttle and burn less fuel? I mean, if you are just flying about and not worried about speed.
 
JCranford said:
Did YOU buy 'too much plane'? Is your plane too big or too fast or whatever for 80% of your 'mission', but works REALLY well for that other 20%? I'm overly worried about that part of buying for some reason. I also think I'm trying to hit the sweet spot a little too much (may be the sniper in me..).

My thinking is: You can always put LESS in the plane, or go SLOWER, but you cant put in MORE or go FASTER if it wont do it.
Click to expand...

I bought a Tiger which has served well. I've only had 4 on board once, and 3 on board twice in 7-8 years and 600 hours. The majority of time has been solo or with my son before he went to college. My wife only likes occasional local flights, encourages me to fly long distance, but wants to meet me there via Southwest Airlines points:(:confused: Been debating trading for an RV-6 or RV-7 for more speed. Living in West Texas, the view for the first 2 hours of flight in any direction is the same, might as well speed it up:D
 
midcap said:
With the majority of the GA aircraft, can't you just pull back the throttle and burn less fuel? I mean, if you are just flying about and not worried about speed.
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Within reason yes. I can do 245 kts on 15 gph or I can do 160-170 kts on 8-9 gph depending on altitude. Regardless, I am burning 22 gph on takeoff but usually pull the power back on climb out.
 
Grum.Man said:
Within reason yes. I can do 245 kts on 15 gph or I can do 160-170 kts on 8-9 gph depending on altitude. Regardless, I am burning 22 gph on takeoff but usually pull the power back on climb out.
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Holy moly. I know that's not the AA1! :)
 
Grum.Man said:
Within reason yes. I can do 245 kts on 15 gph or I can do 160-170 kts on 8-9 gph depending on altitude. Regardless, I am burning 22 gph on takeoff but usually pull the power back on climb out.
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damn...that's fast!
 
danhagan said:
My wife only likes occasional local flights, encourages me to fly long distance, but wants to meet me there via Southwest Airlines points:(:confused:
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I got ya beat there. My wife loves to fly with me and she also really likes this plane we're looking at. Truth be told, she is more at peace with going forward with it than I am. :)
 
jsstevens said:
It seems like there are only two ways a plane can be "too much plane":
1) Operating and maintaining it is more than you can or want to afford
2) It is too fast and or too complex for you to operate safely
Other than that, you can fly slower in a faster plane (within reason), and you can carry less in a bigger plane.

I will say the "rent for the other 10%/20% of your mission" is a non starter where I live (Orlando, FL area). There is not a twin nor 6 seat single that is available for (solo) rent anywhere close to me. C-172s, PA-28s, Cirrus (ouch!), yes. Even C-182s. But that's it. So if I really wanted to take my family (3 grown kids, one almost grown kid and my wife) I need a twin. Maybe a higher end Bo or C-210. Nada.

John
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John,
Not sure where in the Orlando area you are, but Deland Aviation now has a Cherokee 6 in their line up.
 
JCranford said:
I got ya beat there. My wife loves to fly with me and she also really likes this plane we're looking at. Truth be told, she is more at peace with going forward with it than I am. :)
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Aauuugh .... RUN! It's a TRAP! Quid Pro Quo purchase will cost the same as your plane;)

West Texas to California I can beat her there due to change of plane for her in Phoenix, but not by much ... she still wants to fly SWA:confused:
 
I've never found someone who regretted buying a faster/bigger/more capable plane, with two exceptions:

1) It costs more than they can afford
2) Their mission is boring holes in the sky and counting cows or the like, which isn't fun to do in a Citation

Basically so long as you can afford it, you won't regret a faster/bigger/whatever plane.

But the 414 is a terrible plane for flying around the farmland where I live and counting the cows. For that, a Zenith 750 would be more appropriate. I would never take the 414 out for counting cows, and if that was my mission it would be a poor choice.
 
danhagan said:
Aauuugh .... RUN! It's a TRAP! Quid Pro Quo purchase will cost the same as your plane;)
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Lol. I had married friends who complained their $20,000 bikes cost 30 or 40. Cause they had to spend 20 on the bike and at least 10 for the wife.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I've never found someone who regretted buying a faster/bigger/more capable plane, with two exceptions:

1) It costs more than they can afford
2) Their mission is boring holes in the sky and counting cows or the like, which isn't fun to do in a Citation

Basically so long as you can afford it, you won't regret a faster/bigger/whatever plane.

But the 414 is a terrible plane for flying around the farmland where I live and counting the cows. For that, a Zenith 750 would be more appropriate. I would never take the 414 out for counting cows, and if that was my mission it would be a poor choice.
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True, to a point.

There are times I almost wish I go a 7AC, biggest saving grace for my plane is planing 120kts on amphibs and having a real IMC machine.
 
JCranford said:
I got ya beat there. My wife loves to fly with me and she also really likes this plane we're looking at. Truth be told, she is more at peace with going forward with it than I am. :)
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If the wife is happy with the plane, BUY IT NOW. Strike while the iron's hot. I only own my Twin Bo because my wife got excited about it. We gawked (and climbed inside w/ the owner's permission) at one on the ramp at our airport probably 2 years ago, didn't given it a second thought after. Then that airplane came up for sale last summer, and I jokingly sent her the ad saying "Remember that Twin Bo? It's for sale!" Her response was "cool." No't "No," but "cool." That slight distinction got my attention. After some discussion, she was on-board so we pursued briefly. That one didn't work out for a variety of reasons and we kind of put the idea out of mind. Until Oshkosh. We looked at the Twin Bos there, and while walking back to the North 40, we passed to Travel Air's and Twinkies. I said, "we should look at one of these, they're much more practical than a Twin Bonanza." Her response "Yeah, but they're so boring." Me: "Message received, I now understand my instructions!" We were under contract on our TBone around 60 days later. She insisted on going with me to see it initially and for the long ferry flight home. She was probably as excited about the plane as I was/am.
 
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