Too close for my comfort

Robert Ryan

Robert Ryan

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Robert R
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
 
I would say that was rather reckless. Too bad your wake turbulence didn’t force him to pull the red handle. Fly long enough and you will find these pilots. A local drop site has a pilot that will dive to final regardless of where you are in the pattern. I was once base within seconds of turning final and he came from above and completely cut in front of me. I think someone eventually reported him to the FAA.
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
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On the departure leg after takeoff, the pilot should continue climbing straight ahead and, if remaining in the traffic pattern, commence a turn to the crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude. If departing the traffic pattern, the pilot should continue straight out or exit with a 45° turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway after reaching the traffic pattern altitude.
 
I think ADS-B in would have made the situation worse because I’d just see the guy coming up my tail and think he’s slightly above me and can’t see down because he’s climbing, thus descending right into him.

I announced the downwind departure before taking the runway and then again when turning from crosswind to downwind.
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
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Go to flightaware and enter the airport's code you were departing from. Find your flight and then the Cirri should be listed right before or after yours. I check for traffic at our airport from time to time. Its not very common yet for 2 adsb equipped planes to depart ours at the same time...except on our fun flight day when a Archer, Dakota, Skylane and 414 all departed about 90 seconds apart :)
 
woodchucker said:
drop site has a pilot
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My oh crap moments have been with drop pilots..

Robert Ryan said:
had no idea he was there
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I'm assuming this was an uncontrolled airport, was there radio communication between the two of you? I was barely wheels up once at an uncontrolled airport (PA28) when a pc-12 behind me announced that he was on the go.. I made a *very* early turn out to get out of his way. it's amazing how departure velocity is not evident to many people. In the Cirrus I've had controllers clear me for takeoff immediately behind much slower planes like Cubs and I wait for them to turn base before actually applying power.. the last time tower actually got annoyed with me "I need you on the roll".. okay dude, you realize 120>55.. right?

100' is *very* close.. definitely far too close for comfort..
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
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Your staying focused is what made it turn out okay.
The Cirrus pilot was being a jerk.
 
Shuswap BC said:
Your staying focused is what made it turn out okay.
The Cirrus pilot was being a jerk.
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Or completely clueless.. neither are any better. I'd be curious about the radio exchange here and whether or not he was listening or what he was saying...

I'm surprised madaras aren't more common at small uncontrolled airports, just recently at O22 we watched from the ground as two airplanes were on final from opposite ends of the same runway.. eventually one went around and sidestepped but pretty freaking crazy.. I bet a surprising amount of people don't listen to the radio or even dial it up for uncontrolled. Nuts
 
Tantalum said:
I'd be curious about the radio exchange here and whether or not he was listening or what he was saying
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I just listed to the audio at live act.net and I’m wondering if the guy was on the wrong frequency because there’s nothing from him. At around 16 minutes I make the first call before taking the runway and a few minutes later I make the second call repeating the downwind departure. There are multiple helos reporting position and a PC-12 doing a touch and goes. Just after the PC lands I start my right turn . https://archive-server.liveatc.net/kdvo/KDVO-Nov-21-2019-1030Z.mp3
 
Dave Theisen said:
Don’t worry, I’m sure he had you on the “Fish-Finder”. :) :) :)
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I made this comment in jest, but seriously, the closest call I’ve ever had was when I was on final at at a controlled airport in a 172 when a Saratoga overtook me, passing directly overhead by 50’. When I talked to him on the ramp, he said, “I saw you on TCAS, but I never did see you”. To this day, I still can’t believe I didn’t punch him. Be careful out there folks, they’re out there.
 
Tantalum said:
Or completely clueless.. neither are any better. I'd be curious about the radio exchange here and whether or not he was listening or what he was saying...

I'm surprised madaras aren't more common at small uncontrolled airports, just recently at O22 we watched from the ground as two airplanes were on final from opposite ends of the same runway.. eventually one went around and sidestepped but pretty freaking crazy.. I bet a surprising amount of people don't listen to the radio or even dial it up for uncontrolled. Nuts
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About 80% of the time I use uncontrolled airports, I make sure to listen for any traffic at my intended destination at least 10 minutes before I arrive. I also call that I'm inbound about 10 miles out, again around 5 miles out, and before crossing midfield or entering the pattern, as well as calling downwind, base, and final. But my scan is constantly for traffic not on the radio, as I get near the airport to. When getting ready to depart, I am always looking around for others in the pattern while taxiing, and before I enter the active, because its surprising how much traffic there is that doesn't call out their intentions.
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
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I'm not picking, but how do you determine 100 ft. and 25 kts? Even most seasoned pilots would have trouble accurately judging these numbers.

From the situation you've described, I'd have probably done the same thing. Slow airplane ahead clogging his departure route, and by passing below and off to the side, he could see you, and take evasive action if you did something unexpected. I don't see his actions reckless at all.

You share the sky with all kinds of other flying things. Complaining when somebody passes you on the right when you're doing 55 in the fast lane serves no good cause. Please don't start off your flying career as one of those guys.
 
Art Rose said:
I'm not picking, but how do you determine 100 ft. and 25 kts? Even most seasoned pilots would have trouble accurately judging these numbers.

From the situation you've described, I'd have probably done the same thing. Slow airplane ahead clogging his departure route, and by passing below and off to the side, he could see you, and take evasive action if you did something unexpected. I don't see his actions reckless at all.

You share the sky with all kinds of other flying things. Complaining when somebody passes you on the right when you're doing 55 in the fast lane serves no good cause. Please don't start off your flying career as one of those guys.
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Seriously? If in fact he did see him, and then chose to pass within 100’, that’s not reckless and you’d have done the same thing?
 
Tantalum said:
Or completely clueless.. neither are any better. I'd be curious about the radio exchange here and whether or not he was listening or what he was saying...

I'm surprised madaras aren't more common at small uncontrolled airports, just recently at O22 we watched from the ground as two airplanes were on final from opposite ends of the same runway.. eventually one went around and sidestepped but pretty freaking crazy.. I bet a surprising amount of people don't listen to the radio or even dial it up for uncontrolled. Nuts
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The two times i flew into Columbia some madness like that was going down. Maybe it’s me lol. Still one of my favorite stops!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
champ driver said:
Knots are abbreviated as kts, not kn, just so you use the correct terminology.
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nauts, kn, nmph, kts, it matter knot a whit if we all know what is intended.
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. ... I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right...
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Wait, YOU were the one making a downwind departure at an uncontrolled field?
 
dtuuri said:
Wait, YOU were the one making a downwind departure at an uncontrolled field?
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I read that too. Was the OP departing downwind or from the pattern downwind leg?
 
Robert Ryan said:
Today on a downwind departure a Cirrus passed below and to the right of me within ~100 feet and I had no idea he was there. He had taken off just after me. I'm a student with about 40 hours and was pretty startled when I rolled right and saw him passing below about 25kn faster than me. I get it - the 172 I'm flying was only pushing 85kn as I was climbing out but this seemed a bit reckless. I'd like to get the ADS-B tracks to see how close it actually was but I can't find them online.

I was tracking a coast guard helicopter on a converging course at the same altitude about 1.5 miles out when this happened and managed to stay focused. But honestly I just wanted to turn around and land.
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If you remember his N-number, call the FSDO. And anyone who thinks I'm a rat, I couldn't care less. People like this keep doin this crap because they keep getting away with it. Drop the dime on him.
 
So, he knew you were climbing and passed you low and to the right where he could keep an eye on you and maintain separation? A word or two on the radio would have been nice.
 
I don't see how anyone can opine when the OP is so vaguely describing the event. Was it the OP or the Cirrus that was on a "downwind departure"? What does the OP mean by "downwind departure", taking off downwind, then "rolling right" onto a right crosswind or rolling right, away from the downwind leg the OP was "downwind departing" from? Or was the OP in the pattern turning a right base and a Cirrus was making a downwind departure inside of the OP?
 
To clarify, I was departing runway 13 and my destination was to the north. I made a radio call on crosswind that I was making a downwind departure. When I was abeam the numbers I started climbing and soon after turned right to 360 and saw the Cirrus.

The part of this that I’m marinating on is if I’d been using my ADS-B. I have a Stratux setup that can display traffic on ForeFlight but it wasn’t setup. If I saw him coming up behind I think I would have been pretty sure he couldn’t see me on his climb and I would have descended.
 
Robert Ryan said:
When I was abeam the numbers I started climbing and soon after turned right to 360 and saw the Cirrus.
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"Abeam the numbers"? Which numbers? If you flew the length of the runway and then started to make a climbing turn out of the pattern the Cirrus might have been on a wider downwind following you, spaced out farther. If it was the departure numbers you refer to, then maybe the Cirrus was entering the pattern pretty much where he ought to be, but you were departing the pattern nowhere near where you ought to be. IMO, spend less time fooling with ADS-B and more time reading the AIM--and following its advice.
 
Too close for missiles. Switching to guns. :D
 
People are sure quick to take a student pilot’s distance estimate as gospel. There are at least two sides to the story.
 
So are you saying there is nothing in the flight track that shows the Cirrus either taking off directly after you or entering pattern while you are exiting? So the Cirrus was trying to be invisible to tracking with no transponder and no radio calls?
 
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