Today's my big court trial - advice?

[SkyHog]

So - today, I go into court to fight a bogus speeding ticket I received - details can be found in the "Challenging a Court's Jurisdiction" thread. Below are some of my tactics - anyone want to give me any feedback or advice before I go in?

1. If the pilot officer does not appear, I will move to dismiss with the following statement:

"Your honor, I move to dismiss this case, as the state has failed to produce a viable witness. In this case, Officer Sullivan was merely acting upon information provided to her from another officer, and any testimony she were to give would be considered hear-say and inadmissible anyway. In addition, I have a constitutionally protected right to face my accuser as part of this trial, and Officer Sullivan is not that accuser, she is merely the one that wrote the citation."​

2. If the pilot is there, I plan to demonstrate that 14 CFR 91.113(b) requires his to "see and avoid" other aircraft, and due to the proximity of the Air Force Academy, he must have been extremely diligent in his observations of other aircraft to ensure the safety of his mission. One of my questions specifically asks:

"Keeping in mind that 14 CFR 91.3(a) states that you are ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft, when you are flying a mission as as you were on the morning of September 24th, 2014, which do you consider to be your primary function - flying the airplane safely, or measuring traffic violations on the ground."​

3. Also - I have video that shows that the Colorado State Patrol pilots commonly turn so sharply that their own wing obstructs their view of the road, so traffic or not, his vision was definitely obstructed at some point during the stop. Also, the video shows that from 1,500ft, positively identifying make and model of a car is impossible - at best, you can identify colors and body types.
4. I intend to demonstrate that entering the interstate at Mile Marker 163, then accelerating to 108MPH within 1/2 mile, maintaining that speed long enough to be measured by an aircraft, then slowing to a reasonable speed in time to be engaged by the officer on the ground, then entering the right lane where I determined that the officer was pulling me over, then stopping within sight of Mile Marker 165 - 2 miles away from my entrance, would be a very difficult task in the normal traffic load that is encountered during morning rush hour on I-25 to Denver.
5. I plan to ask for a summary judgment before closing arguments based on the state's lack of evidence.

What do you guys think? Good plan?

 

[Ghery]

I'm not a lawyer, but best of luck to you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think I'd like to watch.

I've watched too many pro se litigants to make any suggestions that I would expect to be at all helpful.

Good luck.

 

[Matthew]

1) good luck
2) relax
3) don't get flustered or intimidated
4) learn something
5) report back!

 

[Sac Arrow]

>So - today, I go into court to fight a bogus speeding ticket I received - details can be found in the "Challenging a Court's Jurisdiction" thread. Below are some of my tactics - anyone want to give me any feedback or advice before I go in?

1. If the pilot officer does not appear, I will move to dismiss with the following statement:

"Your honor, I move to dismiss this case."

2. If the pilot is there, I plan to demonstrate that 14 CFR 91.113(b) requires his to "see and avoid" other aircraft, and due to the proximity of the Air Force Academy, he must have been extremely diligent in his observations of other aircraft to ensure the safety of his mission. One of my questions specifically asks:

"Keeping in mind that 14 CFR 91.3(a) states that you are ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft, when you are flying a mission as as you were on the morning of September 24th, 2014, which do you consider to be your primary function - flying the airplane safely, or measuring traffic violations on the ground."

Answer: "Yes, next question?"

Judge: "Relevance? The officer is not on trial."

3. Also - I have video that shows that the Colorado State Patrol pilots commonly turn so sharply that their own wing obstructs their view of the road, so traffic or not, his vision was definitely obstructed at some point during the stop. Also, the video shows that from 1,500ft, positively identifying make and model of a car is impossible - at best, you can identify colors and body types.

Do a discovery of the evidence. If you were cited by a ground unit, you were clocked by them too so that becomes irrelevant.

4. I intend to demonstrate that entering the interstate at Mile Marker 163, then accelerating to 108MPH within 1/2 mile, maintaining that speed long enough to be measured by an aircraft, then slowing to a reasonable speed in time to be engaged by the officer on the ground, then entering the right lane where I determined that the officer was pulling me over, then stopping within sight of Mile Marker 165 - 2 miles away from my entrance, would be a very difficult task in the normal traffic load that is encountered during morning rush hour on I-25 to Denver.

Judge: "Officer, would you consider that task difficult?"

Officer: "Yes your honor. But well within my capabilities."

"Next question?"

5. I plan to ask for a summary judgment before closing arguments based on the state's lack of evidence.

Can't hurt. Probably won't help.

What do you guys think? Good plan?

No, but I don't have a better one.

 

[Stewartb]

Take your check book?

 

[SkyHog]

>So - today, I go into court to fight a bogus speeding ticket I received - details can be found in the "Challenging a Court's Jurisdiction" thread. Below are some of my tactics - anyone want to give me any feedback or advice before I go in?

1. If the pilot officer does not appear, I will move to dismiss with the following statement:

"Your honor, I move to dismiss this case."

2. If the pilot is there, I plan to demonstrate that 14 CFR 91.113(b) requires his to "see and avoid" other aircraft, and due to the proximity of the Air Force Academy, he must have been extremely diligent in his observations of other aircraft to ensure the safety of his mission. One of my questions specifically asks:

"Keeping in mind that 14 CFR 91.3(a) states that you are ultimately responsible for the operation of the aircraft, when you are flying a mission as as you were on the morning of September 24th, 2014, which do you consider to be your primary function - flying the airplane safely, or measuring traffic violations on the ground."

Answer: "Yes, next question?"

Judge: "Relevance? The officer is not on trial."

3. Also - I have video that shows that the Colorado State Patrol pilots commonly turn so sharply that their own wing obstructs their view of the road, so traffic or not, his vision was definitely obstructed at some point during the stop. Also, the video shows that from 1,500ft, positively identifying make and model of a car is impossible - at best, you can identify colors and body types.

Do a discovery of the evidence. If you were cited by a ground unit, you were clocked by them too so that becomes irrelevant.

4. I intend to demonstrate that entering the interstate at Mile Marker 163, then accelerating to 108MPH within 1/2 mile, maintaining that speed long enough to be measured by an aircraft, then slowing to a reasonable speed in time to be engaged by the officer on the ground, then entering the right lane where I determined that the officer was pulling me over, then stopping within sight of Mile Marker 165 - 2 miles away from my entrance, would be a very difficult task in the normal traffic load that is encountered during morning rush hour on I-25 to Denver.

Judge: "Officer, would you consider that task difficult?"

Officer: "Yes your honor. But well within my capabilities."

"Next question?"

5. I plan to ask for a summary judgment before closing arguments based on the state's lack of evidence.

Can't hurt. Probably won't help.

What do you guys think? Good plan?

No, but I don't have a better one.

Two things:

1. I couldn't get discovery because it's specifically disallowed in this state. Bizarre, but true.
2. The short time frame is actually to show that I couldn't have done it, not the officer. Basically, I had to go from 0-108 - 0 within 2 miles, and had to maintain 108 long enough to be measured. Also, the vascar line is less than 1/2 mile from the entrance to the interstate.

 

[FlySince9]

I have only one question... Were you speeding...if so,
Ask for a plea... reduction in speed... thne cough up the dough and learn a lesson...

 

[SkyHog]

I have only one question... Were you speeding...if so, cough up the dough and learn a lesson...

No. Not at the level claimed. I might have been doing 80 or 85 in a 75 (although doubtful). I wasn't going 108.

 

[FlySince9]

I just corrected my post... but if you were speeding but not at 108 cop a plea //ask for a reduction...more likely successful than an amature attempt at lawyering... then pay the fine... for 10 over you won't have any lasting ill effects on lic or insurance

 

[FlySince9]

If you don't succeed in you attempt to beat the ticket, you may be looking at 25 over which in some states is considered wreckless driving... very serious... could lose license etc...

 

[Brad Z]

Are you 100% certain that Colorado operates as a single officer operation? In VA, they used to use to have two officers: one flying the airplane and one in the back operating the VASCAR (timer). They've since scrapped the airborn speed enforcement.

Also, don't go in all TV lawyer. Your Jackie Chiles impersonation will come off at best as a Vincent Gambini without the acquittal. Keep it simple, hope the cop doesn't show, and if he does, talk to the prosecutor about lowering it to 84 in a 75. Know your laws, in some places (such as here in VA), going over a 100 will get you jail time. Ask Washington Nationals Slugger Jayson Werth. Good luck.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Hope you took along a real good lawyer who was either a golfing buddy of the judge or his son in law, etc.

 

[narchee]

I agree with the suggestion to plea for a reduction. Either that or get a real traffic lawyer to represent you. I've been to court twice for speeding. In both cases I was as guilty as sin but in both got a reduced penalty with nothing going on my record. In both cases I plead it down with the prosecutor directly before the trial. This was years ago. Recently I just pay the fine. If you can't afford to do the time (or pay the penalty) don't do the crime

 

[TMetzinger]

Will Nick be able to post from jail?

 

[SkyHog]

Are you 100% certain that Colorado operates as a single officer operation? In VA, they used to use to have two officers: one flying the airplane and one in the back operating the VASCAR (timer). They've since scrapped the airborn speed enforcement.

Also, don't go in all TV lawyer. Your Jackie Chiles impersonation will come off at best as a Vincent Gambini without the acquittal. Keep it simple, hope the cop doesn't show, and if he does, talk to the prosecutor about lowering it to 84 in a 75. Know your laws, in some places (such as here in VA), going over a 100 will get you jail time. Ask Washington Nationals Slugger Jayson Werth. Good luck.

Yeah - the video I have shows the officer doing it alone.

Also - I have the following measurements I took, that might help add perspective to this:

1. Distance from entry to start of VASCAR: 0.61 Miles
2. Distance from start of VASCAR to end of VASCAR: 0.5 Miles
3. Distance from entry to eventual stop: 1.58 Miles.

That makes an even better story, which I'll include as details in the case.

 

[SkyHog]

By the way - speed is not a "Serious offense." I have to laugh at those of you that are warning as such.

Its speeding. Its like a $150 fine, as written, and with court fees will be like $165. I doubt I can get a lawyer cheaper than that with any more of a chance than I have myself in getting this right. So enough of that advice - any advice on the points themselves?

 

[Zeldman]

If you don't succeed in you attempt to beat the ticket, you may be looking at 25 over which in some states is considered wreckless driving... very serious... could lose license etc...

Most places consider anything over 100 MPH as wreckless endangerment and that usually can be a arrestable offense.

What is the year of the vehicle? Most vehicles made in the last 15-20 years have computer controlled speed limiters that limit top speed to 90 to 96 MPH. Unless someone has over ridden the speed limiter.

Last of all, a person that uses themselves for a lawyer has a fool for a lawyer. Open up the wallet and get a professional if you really want to "beat" the ticket.

Otherwise good luck to ya bud. Let us know how it turns out for ya.

 

[SkyHog]

Most places consider anything over 100 MPH as wreckless endangerment and that usually can be a arrestable offense.

No - most places don't. Some places do. Colorado is not one of them.

What is the year of the vehicle? Most vehicles made in the last 15-20 years have computer controlled speed limiters that limit top speed to 90 to 96 MPH. Unless someone has over ridden the speed limiter.

No, most vehicles don't. In fact, this vehicle doesn't. I'm not sure even sure where you got that from, because I've seen many vehicles in the last 15-20 years up at 120 or higher and never one that is governed. I rent a lot of different vehicles quite frequently.

Last of all, a person that uses themselves for a lawyer has a fool for a lawyer. Open up the wallet and get a professional if you really want to "beat" the ticket.

Find me a lawyer for less than $165 that will get me anything of use, and I'm all over it. You can't, and lawyers aren't the answer to everything.

Otherwise good luck to ya bud. Let us know how it turns out for ya.

Will do - I feel good at having a chance for appeal when I lose. Everything is stacked against me, so I doubt I'll win. Gotta take a chance tho.

 

[Henning]

Well?

 

[Geico266]

By the way - speed is not a "Serious offense." I have to laugh at those of you that are warning as such.

Its speeding. Its like a $150 fine, as written, and with court fees will be like $165. I doubt I can get a lawyer cheaper than that with any more of a chance than I have myself in getting this right. So enough of that advice - any advice on the points themselves?

You are going to jail.

No comments except what someone else recommended. Relax, explain the facts as you know them. Admit you were doing 80-85 going along with traffic.

 

[EdFred]

Most places consider anything over 100 MPH as wreckless endangerment and that usually can be a arrestable offense.

What is the year of the vehicle? Most vehicles made in the last 15-20 years have computer controlled speed limiters that limit top speed to 90 to 96 MPH. Unless someone has over ridden the speed limiter.

Last of all, a person that uses themselves for a lawyer has a fool for a lawyer. Open up the wallet and get a professional if you really want to "beat" the ticket.

Otherwise good luck to ya bud. Let us know how it turns out for ya.

I'm 1-0-1 in court with myself as a laywer. I would be 2-0 had I owned a video camera at the time.

 

[SkyHog]

Well?

2.5 hours until the court date. and we're getting a bunch of snow.

Gonna be ****ed if they cancel for snow.

 

[Matthew]

SkyHog's had a lot of time to prep for this, and has gotten a lot of advice since.

Keep it professional and simple enough so the judge doesn't have to ask for clarification or explanation of your arguments.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

In maryland, over 80mph is indeed a serious offense, over 100 would be loss of license.

 

[Matthew]

In maryland, over 80mph is indeed a serious offense, over 100 would be loss of license.

I'd move!



In Wyoming the speed limit is 80 on some of their interstates.

 

[Clark1961]

prolly not the day to wear pink underware...

 

[Matthew]

While you wait, can't you find a bar where the public defenders hang out? Like in the movies?

 

[N5922S]

I always try to get my money's worth by pleading not guilty and getting a jury -- actually won a couple when the cop didn't show. I once had 2 jury trials (lost in municipal court and appealed to the county) because Barney Fife wrote me up for picking up a rider in a fire lane -- cost me $166 total, but it was worth double that to embarrass Barney. :wink2:

 

[narchee]

So the first time I went to court to fight a speeding ticket, I was early and while waiting I struck up a conversation with an attorney who was waiting there. Just a friendly conversation. He was representing someone else and waiting for him. My defense was kind of going to be similar to yours, basically that the officer wouldn't have been able to do a good job for various reasons related to work load. The attorney just laughed at me. Remember he was not representing me just having a friendly conversation. He told me "listen the cop only has to prove you were speeding 1 mph over the limit. The actual fee depends on how much over but that is all he has to prove. Also if it comes down to the judge believing you or the cop, he is going to believe the cop". He strongly suggested I just try to get a reduced fee and not try to argue it because I would lose. It kind of took the wind out of my sails, but I followed his free advice and walked away with a fine only and nothing going on my record.

I'm not a lawyer so take this for what its worth but in my opinion your only hope is if the cop doesn't show. The rest of your argument? Weak. The judge is not going to buy your argument that the cop was too overloaded with work or too inept in some way to measure your speed.

 

[SoonerAviator]

No, most vehicles don't. In fact, this vehicle doesn't. I'm not sure even sure where you got that from, because I've seen many vehicles in the last 15-20 years up at 120 or higher and never one that is governed. I rent a lot of different vehicles quite frequently.

Depends on the vehicle. Trucks and SUV's are commonly limited around 95-100mph. My '08 F-150 will hit an invisible wall at 100mph, same with GM trucks and SUV's for the most part. Cars are generally different, and it may have something to do with tire speed ratings.

 

[SkyHog]

So the first time I went to court to fight a speeding ticket, I was early and while waiting I struck up a conversation with an attorney who was waiting there. Just a friendly conversation. He was representing someone else and waiting for him. My defense was kind of going to be similar to yours, basically that the officer wouldn't have been able to do a good job for various reasons related to work load. The attorney just laughed at me. Remember he was not representing me just having a friendly conversation. He told me "listen the cop only has to prove you were speeding 1 mph over the limit. The actual fee depends on how much over but that is all he has to prove. Also if it comes down to the judge believing you or the cop, he is going to believe the cop". He strongly suggested I just try to get a reduced fee and not try to argue it because I would lose. It kind of took the wind out of my sails, but I followed his free advice and walked away with a fine only and nothing going on my record.

I'm not a lawyer so take this for what its worth but in my opinion your only hope is if the cop doesn't show. The rest of your argument? Weak. The judge is not going to buy your argument that the cop was too overloaded with work or too inept in some way to measure your speed.

By the way, this horrible advice is precisely why I didn't get a lawyer. It's wrong.

 

[EdFred]

By the way, this horrible advice is precisely why I didn't get a lawyer. It's wrong.

Agreed. If you're good, you'll get out of it. If you suck at life, get a lawyer.


PS - get a lawyer.

 

[genna]

In maryland, over 80mph is indeed a serious offense, over 100 would be loss of license.

It's not. I know from experience. In MD, speeding is just speeding. Nothing else. Maximum speeding charge is 5 points(30+ or over 85 and higher). You need at least 8 to get license suspended, 12 to get it revoked. At high speed, the officer MAY add a reckless driving ticket(6 points), but it is at the officer's discretion and it is still NOT a loss of license. Points are not decided by the officer and are not added to each other after conviction

 

[narchee]

Looking forward to hearing what happens (assuming you give an honest report).

 

[Matthew]

Depends on the vehicle. Trucks and SUV's are commonly limited around 95-100mph. My '08 F-150 will hit an invisible wall at 100mph, same with GM trucks and SUV's for the most part. Cars are generally different, and it may have something to do with tire speed ratings.

My brother is a GM mechanic at a Chevrolet dealer. He routinely e-mails me pictures of the Corvettes and Camaros that he test drives for dealer prep. I'll text him right now and ask him what he knows about it.

 

[EdFred]

No limiter on the C5. I have had mine over 150mph on a nice straight stretch of highway.

 

[Matthew]

My brother is a GM mechanic at a Chevrolet dealer. He routinely e-mails me pictures of the Corvettes and Camaros that he test drives for dealer prep. I'll text him right now and ask him what he knows about it.

No limiter on the C5. I have had mine over 150mph on a nice straight stretch of highway.

"Yes. Not on the performance stuff."

 

[N801BH]

Hope the OP records the trial on voice and maybe video too.... Just leave your Ipad on while it is on the table......


If nothing else.. You will make alot of money off the Youtube views.....

Ps.... Good luck.. We are all pulling for you...

 

[genna]

Depends on the vehicle. Trucks and SUV's are commonly limited around 95-100mph. My '08 F-150 will hit an invisible wall at 100mph, same with GM trucks and SUV's for the most part. Cars are generally different, and it may have something to do with tire speed ratings.

Nope, with perhaps a few exceptions, none of the US made/sold cars or light trucks have speed governors. Only SOME German cars have such governors and they are set to 155mph (250k/h - this is due to a gentleman’s agreement among German manufacturers since the 90s i think that they choose when to follow anyway)

The 100mph "wall" has to do with not having enough horsepower, gearing, bad aerodynamics and nothing else.

EDIT: after some looking around, apparently some new light trucks are limited due to tires... i stand a bit corrected