To IFR or not to IFR?

Brad Z said:
Personally, I enjoy a beautiful sunrise/sunset over the top while the rest of the world slogs through the undercast, courtesy of a few minutes of submarine flying. Of course I fly to get places, rather than just fly circles on pretty days.
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I'm with you. My first question when planning an IFR flight was "What are the tops?" I flew professionally for many a year, and if a trip meant more than 30 minutes or so in the clouds (hand flying), I turned it down.

Bob Gardner
 
I flew NJ to Florida earlier this week and then Florida back to NJ just this afternoon. I did the first trip VFR (for save for one brief IFR pop-up to get through a layer towards the very end), and the whole return trip IFR.

It was astonishing how much easier it was to do the trip on an IFR flight plan instead of VFR.

On the VFR trip, I got asked my destination and aircraft type 7 controllers in a row, not counting the 3 times the NY controller asked me for it when I was establishing flight following to begin with.

It was nice having the freedom to pick an altitude or route...but I did that anyway with he IFR flight, so that advantage doesn't hold much water (at least for this trip).

I'd vote for getting the rating at whatever pace works for you and enjoy the process. If you're decent on the radio already, that will help. Then, once you have the rating, I'd use a PC to stay in shape.
 
Contrary to what others are suggesting, I am taking my time to complete my rating. I started my training in March of this and hoping finish by Jan or Feb of next year. I do not want to rush it. I wanted to get comfortable flying in the system and learn weather patterns during various times of the year. I am a low time pilot, therefore, taking time is helping me. I don't think I will spend a whole lot more money by spreading the training over a period of one year. But, I read, watch videos, fly simulator, review charts, weather etc. to stay proficient. I want it to be good learning and wanted to enjoy the training process. I am not doing this just for the rating, but to be safer pilot.
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That's what I did also, KSP. As long as I was flying once a week, I didn't feel like I had lost much proficiency or had to re-learn the previous lesson. If I went three weeks, I could tell the difference. I took the written when I started training and finished up just before it expired so I wouldn't have to take it again. I flew all times of year in a lot of different conditions. I have no basis of comparison to those who go faster, but I personally feel I had a good, well-grounded training regime that I didn't forget the next day.
 
Good thread and I'm in same boat after getting my PPL recently. Using a sim with a CFII will save on costs quite a bit. Then immersion course like PIC would be a good idea. Since my instructor is moving, I may finish up next year with an intense 10 day course after passing the written exam.
 
John,

The sim flying is a great enhancement to IFR training.

Where do you live? I ask because that will certainly affect how often you would encounter IMC.

There's a series of good comments on this topic herein: http://airfactsjournal.com/2013/09/the-great-debate-do-you-have-to-have-an-instrument-rating/

J

noobJohn said:
I just wanted to say thanks (again) for all the input!

I talked about this with the CFI I did my PPL with. He gave me the same advice he gave me on the PPL, getting it done faster will cost more $$$/unit time but less $$$ in the end. Surprisingly, like one of you guys, he suggested that sim flying was useful for IFR. I say surprisingly because he was a very stick/rudder/old-skool/don't turn-on-the-GPS sort of CFI for the PPL.

I think I'm going to study books and dvds and take the written before I start flying with an instructor. That'll keep me busy for a while and I can keep enjoying flying VFR on nice days. I'm still going to go with the "slow" training plan. If it's not working, I'll ramp it up.
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I find that when a student flies weekly, we can almost always do a checkride in the FAA minimum hours. Stretching out the training will increase the number of hours required to become ready for a ride. That's the downside. The upside is that you will get a chance to fly in a greater variety of weather conditions, which is a big plus. A two hour lesson every two weeks means that your training will require about a year, allowing for cancellations. That means you learn how to fly in four seasons of weather.
 
Great topic !! I too am considering an IFR rating and many of my questions have been addressed. I am retired and want to do some traveling by air with my wife. I live in South Louisiana an generally I am at 1800 feet bouncing along below the cloud layer. This is why I gave up flying so many times. Boring. LOL I am getting back started after 18 years of Non-flying.

I truly hope this is going to be fun. I plan on flying complex aircraft on cross country flights vacations and such.

Thanks for all the input. This is a great topic.
 
etemplet said:
Great topic !! I too am considering an IFR rating and many of my questions have been addressed. I am retired and want to do some traveling by air with my wife. I live in South Louisiana an generally I am at 1800 feet bouncing along below the cloud layer. This is why I gave up flying so many times. Boring. LOL I am getting back started after 18 years of Non-flying.

I truly hope this is going to be fun. I plan on flying complex aircraft on cross country flights vacations and such.

Thanks for all the input. This is a great topic.
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Trust me, in normal flying, boring is the objective.:yesnod:
 
I live in the bay area near Palo Alto, CA so we get a lot of marine layer type IMC conditions. Not too much ice or nasty weather. To me, I don't plan to do much flying in the midwest or east coast if I can help it. The IR would let me pop out of low clouds for VFR On Top to make schedules for travel and business.
 
Henning said:
Trust me, in normal flying, boring is the objective.:yesnod:
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Man that sure ain't "my" goal, Nooooo way !! :no: Life in abundance !! That's me!! And my wife hangs on reeeel tight !!! :yes: Yea Buddy !! :lol:
 
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Bumping my own thread back to the top.

I've watched the Sporty's IFR DVDs a couple of times and have been reading Bob Gardner's "Complete Pilot."

My first IFR flight lesson is tomorrow. :D
 
Congrats! Good luck to you.

As a recreational pilot who was concerned about maintaining IFR proficiency (something you mentioned in your OP), I would offer this idea for your consideration, if it's available in your area:

Find a CFII with a simulator, and book regular training sessions with him.

There are cons to sim training, but there are noteworthy pros, too. If $$$ is a consideration, then sim training can be a very cost-effective way to maintain instrument proficiency. You can also hit the "pause" button and talk about situations, immediately "rewind" to the beginning of an approach to try it again, fly the same approach in different weather conditions or with different system failures in play, etc.

I like it because I have a good instructor who sneaks in malfunctions for me to deal with that would not be possible in a real aircraft. Gradual loss of vacuum, sudden loss of a single magneto, etc. The session is peppered with thoughtful discussion because it's easy to pause and just chat before moving on to the next bit of flying.

And did I mention it's a lot less expensive than dual instruction in my plane?
 
Good for you. Remember it doesn't have to be cloudy to fly IFR. Learning to use the system is 90% of the battle and it's like learning another language. You don't want to sound like a Yankee ordering Mexican food on a busy IMC day.
 
It sounds like you made up your mind, John. Even though you will be doing a little sweating during training (if you are like I was), remember to have fun. Keep us posted.
 
Insist on working in some actual IFR in IMC during your training. It's a great way to understand how it really works, and will encourage you to get your ticket wet when you are done. There is nothing more satisfying in flying in the clag post to post in benign IFR and popping out on approach at your destination safely and on time. And knowing it would have never happened VFR.
 
If you are happy just flying locally in good weather, I see no real reason to get an IR. You can always get back with a CFI and increase the skills for the type of flying you enjoy. Then should you later decide you want an IR, the training will actually be easier because you fly the plane better. One of the biggest mistakes I see is pilots jumping at the IR before they fly really well visually
 
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noobJohn said:
Bumping my own thread back to the top.

I've watched the Sporty's IFR DVDs a couple of times and have been reading Bob Gardner's "Complete Pilot."

My first IFR flight lesson is tomorrow. :D
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Enjoy.

VFR pilot: Ugh, solid undercast.
IFR pilot: Cool, solid undercast!
 
This is one reason I hate living in Phoenix. It's too damn VMC all the time!!
 
I survived lesson #1. It was interesting. Despite internet advice to the contrary instructor jumped straight into approaches. I'm expected to partner up with some other IFR folks in training to log some of my hours taking turns as safety pilot.

It feels good to get started.
 
Simulator sounds like a great way to maximize my IFR practice $$$ after getting the rating.

Jim_R said:
Congrats! Good luck to you.

As a recreational pilot who was concerned about maintaining IFR proficiency (something you mentioned in your OP), I would offer this idea for your consideration, if it's available in your area:

Find a CFII with a simulator, and book regular training sessions with him.

There are cons to sim training, but there are noteworthy pros, too. If $$$ is a consideration, then sim training can be a very cost-effective way to maintain instrument proficiency. You can also hit the "pause" button and talk about situations, immediately "rewind" to the beginning of an approach to try it again, fly the same approach in different weather conditions or with different system failures in play, etc.

I like it because I have a good instructor who sneaks in malfunctions for me to deal with that would not be possible in a real aircraft. Gradual loss of vacuum, sudden loss of a single magneto, etc. The session is peppered with thoughtful discussion because it's easy to pause and just chat before moving on to the next bit of flying.

And did I mention it's a lot less expensive than dual instruction in my plane?
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noobJohn said:
I survived lesson #1. It was interesting. Despite internet advice to the contrary instructor jumped straight into approaches. I'm expected to partner up with some other IFR folks in training to log some of my hours taking turns as safety pilot.

It feels good to get started.
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I would advise pushing the pause button with this CFI and ask to see his syllabus for teaching you. And if he is unwilling or unable to produce the lesson plan, or flat says "I don't need a written plan, it's all in my head", then really question if this is the guy you want to spend all this money with.

Based upon my experience with Ron Levy and the PIC program, there are hours and hours and hours of foundational work before you can start approaches. All of it builds toward doing approaches. But there are many skills to master first and much knowledge to take on board.

For the student, it's difficult to recognize you might be experiencing a disservice, since "you don't know what you don't now."

But approaches now..... you haven't been shown what's needed to stay ahead of the airplane, how to configure BEFORE you're on the approach, how to properly intercept and track the radial, how to properly enter and execute a miss approach hold, and more. And these are just a small few of the items you need to know before you do approaches....

Again... talk with the CFI and ask to see his lesson plan, then discuss the what why and when of it. Don't be afraid to ask questions about the sequence. If the answers aren't to your liking, then you will have more data to make a decision.
 
IFR training is going to force me to continue to work on one of my weak points, radio work. I have flown into controlled airports a few times since getting my license and it went fine so what I have to overcome is that jittery feeling, not complete incompetence. :D

Alexb2000 said:
Good for you. Remember it doesn't have to be cloudy to fly IFR. Learning to use the system is 90% of the battle and it's like learning another language. You don't want to sound like a Yankee ordering Mexican food on a busy IMC day.
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AggieMike88 said:
I would advise pushing the pause button with this CFI and ask to see his syllabus for teaching you. And if he is unwilling or unable to produce the lesson plan, or flat says "I don't need a written plan, it's all in my head", then really question if this is the guy you want to spend all this money with.

Based upon my experience with Ron Levy and the PIC program, there are hours and hours and hours of foundational work before you can start approaches. All of it builds toward doing approaches. But there are many skills to master first and much knowledge to take on board.

For the student, it's difficult to recognize you might be experiencing a disservice, since "you don't know what you don't now."

But approaches now..... you haven't been shown what's needed to stay ahead of the airplane, how to configure BEFORE you're on the approach, how to properly intercept and track the radial, how to properly enter and execute a miss approach hold, and more. And these are just a small few of the items you need to know before you do approaches....

Again... talk with the CFI and ask to see his lesson plan, then discuss the what why and when of it. Don't be afraid to ask questions about the sequence. If the answers aren't to your liking, then you will have more data to make a decision.
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:yes:. Please talk with your CFI.
 
I get what you're saying, I really do I have to balance that against the number of folks this particular CFII has succesfully trained. There are different paths to get from VFR pilot to IFR pilot. I agree that "I don't know what I don't know."

I hesitated to post because I knew this was going against the grain. Perhaps I'll quit posting progress reports until I can post the pass/fail IFR checkride result. :rofl:

I do appreciate all the input. Some folks have a hard time when their advice isn't taken but it doesn't mean the advice didn't have an effect. I'm going into this with my foggled eyes wide open.


AggieMike88 said:
I would advise pushing the pause button with this CFI and ask to see his syllabus for teaching you. And if he is unwilling or unable to produce the lesson plan, or flat says "I don't need a written plan, it's all in my head", then really question if this is the guy you want to spend all this money with.

Based upon my experience with Ron Levy and the PIC program, there are hours and hours and hours of foundational work before you can start approaches. All of it builds toward doing approaches. But there are many skills to master first and much knowledge to take on board.

For the student, it's difficult to recognize you might be experiencing a disservice, since "you don't know what you don't now."

But approaches now..... you haven't been shown what's needed to stay ahead of the airplane, how to configure BEFORE you're on the approach, how to properly intercept and track the radial, how to properly enter and execute a miss approach hold, and more. And these are just a small few of the items you need to know before you do approaches....

Again... talk with the CFI and ask to see his lesson plan, then discuss the what why and when of it. Don't be afraid to ask questions about the sequence. If the answers aren't to your liking, then you will have more data to make a decision.
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I'm just down the road from you at Reid Hillview and finally got my rating because of the marine layer we often get. Many times we would leave late in the day, the day before we actually wanted to begin our trip. We'd then have a hotel and possibly rental car or a taxi bill stacked on to the inconvienance of having to leave a day early.

Since getting my rating I've only been delayed one time due to a marine layer, but I could have gone. The ceiling was lower than the minimums to get back in on the RNAV approach if we had needed to so we sat in the hangar and enjoyed a mocha until this condition was met. Sure others were leaving, but I'm not a professional pilot and I got the rating to enhance our capabilities, not take undo risk.


skynewbie said:
I live in the bay area near Palo Alto, CA so we get a lot of marine layer type IMC conditions. Not too much ice or nasty weather. To me, I don't plan to do much flying in the midwest or east coast if I can help it. The IR would let me pop out of low clouds for VFR On Top to make schedules for travel and business.
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noobJohn said:
I survived lesson #1. It was interesting. Despite internet advice to the contrary instructor jumped straight into approaches. I'm expected to partner up with some other IFR folks in training to log some of my hours taking turns as safety pilot.

It feels good to get started.
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Sounds like you've got your mind made up but FWIW if it was me I'd be shopping for a different CFII.
 
noobJohn said:
I survived lesson #1. It was interesting. Despite internet advice to the contrary instructor jumped straight into approaches. I'm expected to partner up with some other IFR folks in training to log some of my hours taking turns as safety pilot.

It feels good to get started.
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This is a very unusual start to IR training. I don't see how you can benefit from flying approaches until you know the basics of instrument flight and scanning. The first thing you should learn are all the power settings and attitudes for the basic flight regimes in your aircraft, e.g. Level flight approach speed, standard climb and descent, cruise flight. Then practice maintaining those regimes while tracking. Then you are ready for approaches, holds, etc. IFR flight is mostly mental gymnastics, not necessarily physical skill.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I would advise pushing the pause button with this CFI and ask to see his syllabus for teaching you. And if he is unwilling or unable to produce the lesson plan, or flat says "I don't need a written plan, it's all in my head", then really question if this is the guy you want to spend all this money with.

Based upon my experience with Ron Levy and the PIC program, there are hours and hours and hours of foundational work before you can start approaches. All of it builds toward doing approaches. But there are many skills to master first and much knowledge to take on board.

For the student, it's difficult to recognize you might be experiencing a disservice, since "you don't know what you don't now."

But approaches now..... you haven't been shown what's needed to stay ahead of the airplane, how to configure BEFORE you're on the approach, how to properly intercept and track the radial, how to properly enter and execute a miss approach hold, and more. And these are just a small few of the items you need to know before you do approaches....

Again... talk with the CFI and ask to see his lesson plan, then discuss the what why and when of it. Don't be afraid to ask questions about the sequence. If the answers aren't to your liking, then you will have more data to make a decision.
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Yeah, I'm with Mike on this, my first thought is you're well on your way to an 80hr IR. I don't think flying with anybody other than a CFII should be happening until you have a solid foundation of what is supposed to be happening, otherwise you risk primacy level errors in judgement, procedure, and technique. These take more hours to unlearn and correct. Some instructors are fine with that, they have child support payments or children they are putting through college and need the steady long term income stream. I did my IR in a week, all 40hrs with my CFII Satan with 30,000hrs in military and corporate flying along with instructing that never let the smallest error go unnoticed or uncorrected. That level of training has carried over for 25+ years allowing me to still pass an IPC even though the only times I fly IFR is on an IPC, often several years after the last.

For the average GA pilot it is more important to get excellent primary Instrument training than it is for the airline pilot. The airline pilot does it everyday and it's routine level workload for them. The average GA pilot will use their IR a few times a year if that. When those times come, it's best that there is no conflicting or confusing information in your head when things start going wonky.

For VFR PP, I like this CFI's attitude, as a CFII for an IR though it's not so good. IFR flying and VFR flying are two different worlds. VFR is organic and free flowing, while IFR is exactingly structured and choreographed to not only avoid the other actors in this play written for the blind to appreciate, but also to protect their ears from the cacophony of flying aluminum intersecting earth.
 
Wow... How time flies.... I pondered the advice here, and.... procrastinated. I enjoyed more VFR flying. A couple of months ago I went and checked out another flight school and flew with a different instrument instructor. Night and day when it comes to organization. Gives you the syllabus upfront, starts with basics, etc... So I think I'm switching instructors.

This particular school uses 172 and 172RG. The 172RG is only ~$15/hour more than the 172. Would the complex time accumulated during IFR training be useful or should I just stick to the basics?
 
Satan was my CFII, for those of you who don't like to be touched, you don't want him, he's like a Catholic school teacher with the ruler on the knuckles :lol: He never yelled or degraded me or anything, but you best not bust a parameter or you get a bust on the knuckles. Even when I went 10 years without flying instruments, I got in a 310 with a guy for a trip through the soup and he asks, "You haven't flown instruments in 10 years, how can you be flying to ATP standards after 10 minutes?" I told him, "Scarred knuckles." :lol:

Instrument training is not fun. If you are having fun you're not working hard enough. VFR=Fun, IFR=Serious Business. Single Engine IFR you take off with two links in the accident chain built in.
 
noobJohn said:
Wow... How time flies.... I pondered the advice here, and.... procrastinated. I enjoyed more VFR flying. A couple of months ago I went and checked out another flight school and flew with a different instrument instructor. Night and day when it comes to organization. Gives you the syllabus upfront, starts with basics, etc... So I think I'm switching instructors.

This particular school uses 172 and 172RG. The 172RG is only ~$15/hour more than the 172. Would the complex time accumulated during IFR training be useful or should I just stick to the basics?
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It depends what kind of plane you want to fly. If you want to fly a complex plane eventually, go with the RG.
 
In your scenario, the cost of integrated or separate complex is fairly close, if you still have @50 hours of IFR training. Do you have the money now and do you need complex, or are you tight on money now and may not need it till later? Run the numbers, consider your preferences, assign a value and go with it.
 
noobJohn said:
I'm thinking of starting on an IFR rating. I'm a little hesitant because I'm not sure I would use it enough to stay proficient. I've been flying about 5 hours a month since getting my PPL and that's probalby the amount I'll be flying for the next few years. I feel like 5 hours a month is enough to stay sharp VFR barely.

So here's what I'm thinking, I'm counting on y'all to correct me.

Pros :

1) Learn new stuff. I like learning
2) More flying time with CFI. It's always good to have a critic.
3) More practice talking to ATC. (I learned at uncontrolled field.)
4) Eventually get IFR rating

Cons :

1) IFR Rating may leave me with just enough skills/knowledge to be dangerous.
2) Perhaps won't have time/$$$ to maintain proficiency

Questions :

1) Can IFR be accomplished slowly? Like 2 lessons/month? Based on internet advice I did 2 lessons/week for PPL and I think that helped progress.
2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?
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In the real world (after training), you sill spend a very small percentage of your IFR time inside of a cloud. You will learn to say "How high are the tops?" on a regular basis. No one flies for very long in actual IMC if they can help it unless they have an autopilot.

...and having the rating does not mean you have to go if conditions are iffy. I have turned down charters because I thought that conditions were beyond my capabilities (and those of the airplane I was supposed to fly).

Bob Gardner
 
I am not as eager as most of you to recommend getting an IFR ticket absent a clear need for the ticket.

There is a subliminal assumption that an IFR pilot flies to higher standards than a VFR pilot. That may in fact be true but it is simply not necessary.

In other words, a person can develop equal proficiency in maintaining an altitude, a heading, turning at a precise point at an acceptable bank angle, managing fuel selection, descent, climb and turn rates and so forth in VFR as under the hood.

If one needs an IFR certificate one should get one.
If one gets an IFR ticket because one is told it will make one a better pilot, that is a bit disingenuous. Being a better pilot is well within the capability and indeed should be the goal of every VFR pilot.

So, let's all fly at precise altitudes, airspeeds, etc. in all flight regimes. If one needs to fly IMC or in the system, get the IFR ticket. Don't get the IFR ticket because one is too lacking in discipline to be the best pilot one can be in the VFR world.
 
More like I have the $$$ now, but don't really "need" complex time. I think I'll eventually go on to get commercial because the discipline of study, training, and testing appeal to me.

And to those replying.... Note I bumped my own old thread. I had a bit of a $$$ windfall and I'm feeling fired up about getting the IFR knocked out.

jnmeade said:
In your scenario, the cost of integrated or separate complex is fairly close, if you still have @50 hours of IFR training. Do you have the money now and do you need complex, or are you tight on money now and may not need it till later? Run the numbers, consider your preferences, assign a value and go with it.
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noobJohn said:
More like I have the $$$ now, but don't really "need" complex time. I think I'll eventually go on to get commercial because the discipline of study, training, and testing appeal to me.

And to those replying.... Note I bumped my own old thread. I had a bit of a $$$ windfall and I'm feeling fired up about getting the IFR knocked out.
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Here's one small consideration of you are looking at purchasing a retract in the future, the more retract time you have early on, the lower your first year insurance hit will be. I got a really good deal in insuring my Travelair with only 60hrs TT because 25 of them were complex.

If you have no plans to buy one in the future, there will be no great advantage to doing your IR training in one.
 
noobJohn said:
More like I have the $$$ now, but don't really "need" complex time. I think I'll eventually go on to get commercial because the discipline of study, training, and testing appeal to me.

And to those replying.... Note I bumped my own old thread. I had a bit of a $$$ windfall and I'm feeling fired up about getting the IFR knocked out.
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If you are planning to fly a complex when you fly IFR and eventually get your commercial then do it in the complex.
 
If you take regular trips with the need to hold a reasonable schedule and you NEED IFR. If you can be very flexible, don't want to fly in IMC, don't usually fly to get somewhere, then you can do without. It is the one rating that truly increases your choices when flying cross country.
 
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