TIO540-AJ1A Lycoming Cylinder Advise

[Alexb2000]

I put my T206H (TIO540-AJ1A) in for annual in Oct. During that time we found that SB593A applied to my intake valves. I started a thread about that (got derailed by know it alls) where the advice was to have the exhaust valves checked while the cylinders were out. So I followed that advise, the result of which is that the cylinder shop is saying that ALL the exhaust valves are out of spec. I find that hard to believe on a 600+ hour engine, but that's what I'm being told.

No biggie, I think, just get new exhaust valves and pay to redo the guides, etc. Well EACH exhaust valve is $1800 (no typo). So the parts and labor JUST to redo the exhaust valves is $15K. This is not R&Ring the cylinders, this is also not the intake valves, piston rings, etc. That is all being paid for by Lycoming.

First thought it I am going to go measure those valve stems myself, bring my own mike, gauge block, etc. and make sure the measurements are accurate.

Second and most hopeful thought is that we are trying to get Lycoming to help us out because this is really an unfortunate situation. They have suggested that we might be able to get a really special deal on brand new cylinders complete from the factory. I expect they will be in the $2K range, I hope, they list for over $3K. Still that is $12K, best case to top a 600+ hour engine.

There are no PMA parts.

I would never not fix it right or put a dangerous plane in the air, but after this my first thought is to bite the bullet, fix it, then sell, and take a break from flying. I've had old planes and new ones and they all seem to give you a little swat to the wallet when you least expect it.

Anyway, here are the measurements from the cylinder shop. Any advice or recommendations at this point?

 

[N801BH]

I put my T206H (TIO540-AJ1A) in for annual in Oct. During that time we found that SB593A applied to my intake valves. I started a thread about that (got derailed by know it alls) where the advice was to have the exhaust valves checked while the cylinders were out. So I followed that advise, the result of which is that the cylinder shop is saying that ALL the exhaust valves are out of spec. I find that hard to believe on a 600+ hour engine, but that's what I'm being told.

No biggie, I think, just get new exhaust valves and pay to redo the guides, etc. Well EACH exhaust valve is $1800 (no typo). So the parts and labor JUST to redo the exhaust valves is $15K. This is not R&Ring the cylinders, this is also not the intake valves, piston rings, etc. That is all being paid for by Lycoming.

First thought it I am going to go measure those valve stems myself, bring my own mike, gauge block, etc. and make sure the measurements are accurate.

Second and most hopeful thought is that we are trying to get Lycoming to help us out because this is really an unfortunate situation. They have suggested that we might be able to get a really special deal on brand new cylinders complete from the factory. I expect they will be in the $2K range, I hope, they list for over $3K. Still that is $12K, best case to top a 600+ hour engine.

There are no PMA parts.

I would never not fix it right or put a dangerous plane in the air, but after this my first thought is to bite the bullet, fix it, then sell, and take a break from flying. I've had old planes and new ones and they all seem to give you a little swat to the wallet when you least expect it.

Anyway, here are the measurements from the cylinder shop. Any advice or recommendations at this point?

That is what I would do.....

 

[Geico266]

$1800 a valve is obscene.

 

[Alexb2000]

$1800 a valve is obscene.

Agreed. Some sodium filled valve made out of Unobtainium. I sold a Porsche once because I thought their parts were insanely expensive. I stand corrected, Porsche is a bargain.

 

[N801BH]

$1800 a valve is obscene.

Agreed.... for 1,800 bucks I can get 2 complete sets of aluminum cylinder heads with SS valves, new springs etc etc etc....

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/cylinder-heads/ford/performer-rpm-sb.shtml

 

[Henning]

Wow, that sucks, hopefully Lycoming will come through, but don't hold your breath. It sucks that there are some models of engines out there with really expensive parts, Lycoming's also got the 541 series with mind numbingly expensive parts costs. They know they have you over a barrel, this is how they keep shareholders happy.

 

[Ted]

They know they have you over a barrel, this is how they keep shareholders happy.

It's really Textron shareholders, not Lycoming. But yes, without a PMA alternative on cylinders, the prices are high and they know they have you over a barrel. The best thing for prices would be if Superior/ECi came out with a PMA'd replacement.

 

[Ted]

I'd agree with the fix it and sell it. My experience is that new planes don't do any better than old. If you bought a G58 Baron, that would have the best probability of being low MX in my opinion. G1000, proven airframe, and IO-550s. I think that these days, Continental probably has a better OEM product than Lycoming.

 

[Tom-D]

Are you allowed to grind the valve stems ?
Knerl the guides?

I'd send the whole mess to Zepher hills and stand by for a hit to the wallet

And people wonder why I don't like Lycoming.

 

[Alexb2000]

Are you allowed to grind the valve stems ?
Knerl the guides?

I'd send the whole mess to Zepher hills and stand by for a hit to the wallet

And people wonder why I don't like Lycoming.

Tom-

As I understand it no to all your questions. I put in plenty of valve guides in other than aircraft engines. I could take my time fitting them, drink a cup of coffee between each step, and still not take over an hour each. I am wondering why it cost $300 per guide to install? Maybe there is something difficult about the process I don't understand.

 

[Alexb2000]

I'd agree with the fix it and sell it. My experience is that new planes don't do any better than old. If you bought a G58 Baron, that would have the best probability of being low MX in my opinion. G1000, proven airframe, and IO-550s. I think that these days, Continental probably has a better OEM product than Lycoming.

I'd agree on the engines(especially right now) I just don't know what year that changed.

This is just my personality, but I HATE unexpected expenses or downtime. I don't mind writing a six figure check for an aircraft, but I really mind writing a $10K check I wasn't planning on. It's just not the way our household works. After owning several aircraft including brand new ones, I'm starting to wonder if that exists.

 

[charlie]

When I recommended checking the exhaust valves I thought you might end up with new guides but not valves. $300 each to install guides is ridiculous. I think we do the whole cylinder overhaul labor for not much more than that. If you want pricing for comparison call LJ at 800-204-0735. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

 

[Alexb2000]

When I recommended checking the exhaust valves I thought you might end up with new guides but not valves. $300 each to install guides is ridiculous. I think we do the whole cylinder overhaul labor for not much more than that. If you want pricing for comparison call LJ at 800-204-0735. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines

My plan at this point is to drive to the cylinder shop and measure the valves. IF they are truly out of spec. then my best hope is for Lycoming to make me a deal on new cylinders. Unless you have some serviceable valves laying around?

I will give you a call if it looks like my cylinders are worth fixing.

 

[Alexb2000]

Today's update. Well I got really sick of all the back and forth with no progress. So I decide to drive out to the cylinder shop. It was about an hour away out on a gravel road in farm country. I'm driving out there thinking, OK, this isn't a retail location by any means. Maybe that's why they were worried when I said I was coming out.

So I arrive at this place, lots of old car bodies up on blocks, tractors, chickens, etc. I go into the shop, there are cylinders laying all over the floor, stuff piled up everywhere, blast media all over everything, etc. I meet the owner who is a super nice guy and a talker. In two and a half hours of jawing he slowly fills in the blanks for me.

First he is VERY worried about liability putting anything on an aircraft. Even though he is a retailer and warranty repair station for all the major brands.

Second he sells A LOT of parts to the air boat guys.

Third he does some unofficial work for performance aircraft that are marked "Air Boat Use Only" yet finds its way onto aircraft.

Fourth his offer and recommended best option was to sell me some new cylinders from Lycoming at his cost and keep my old cylinders as his profit.

So I'm sure you guys can see the business model.

Anyway, he didn't seem real happy when I brought in my micrometer, so he was happy to get rid of me and my cylinders. So now I have the cylinders back and I'm at the same place I was two months ago. Tomorrow we will call Lycoming and see if they will help once again, perhaps with some truly wholesale parts.

 

[Henning]

Well, did the valves measure bad or not?

 

[N801BH]

Today's update. Well I got really sick of all the back and forth with no progress. So I decide to drive out to the cylinder shop. It was about an hour away out on a gravel road in farm country. I'm driving out there thinking, OK, this isn't a retail location by any means. Maybe that's why they were worried when I said I was coming out.

So I arrive at this place, lots of old car bodies up on blocks, tractors, chickens, etc. I go into the shop, there are cylinders laying all over the floor, stuff piled up everywhere, blast media all over everything, etc. I meet the owner who is a super nice guy and a talker. In two and a half hours of jawing he slowly fills in the blanks for me.

First he is VERY worried about liability putting anything on an aircraft. Even though he is a retailer and warranty repair station for all the major brands.

Second he sells A LOT of parts to the air boat guys.

Third he does some unofficial work for performance aircraft that are marked "Air Boat Use Only" yet finds its way onto aircraft.

Fourth his offer and recommended best option was to sell me some new cylinders from Lycoming at his cost and keep my old cylinders as his profit.

So I'm sure you guys can see the business model.

Anyway, he didn't seem real happy when I brought in my micrometer, so he was happy to get rid of me and my cylinders. So now I have the cylinders back and I'm at the same place I was two months ago. Tomorrow we will call Lycoming and see if they will help once again, perhaps with some truly wholesale parts.

I bet 10 bucks the exhaust valves he gave you were NOT your actual valves, but some he had laying around... Your good valves had already been sold to someone else...

And he knows DAMN well you cannot prove it either........

 

[Alexb2000]

Well, did the valves measure bad or not?

He was all over me at the shop, kept taking the micrometer out of my hands, etc. Anyway, the first one I pull out is within spec. I show it to him.

He says, "Yeah, OK, but would you trust it?"
I said, "Yes, why not?".
He said, "Well I wouldn't be comfortable reusing it"

I pulled a second out which also looked right on the edge of useable and it just got silly trying to get a good measurement to the .0001" in that dark shop with him so nervous and taking things out of my hands, etc.

So I just walked in, I'll measure them up in a few minutes.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

keep in mind....it's the installer who gets to decide whether they are airworthy....or not.

Not the fella in the chicken coop.

 

[Alexb2000]

keep in mind....it's the installer who gets to decide whether they are airworthy....or not.

Not the fella in the chicken coop.

I really didn't understand that. I know the A&P returns it to service, but I assume that a shop that rebuilds components like cylinders are responsible for them. I mean how is the A&P supposed to inspect the valves in an assembled cylinder?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I really didn't understand that. I know the A&P returns it to service, but I assume that a shop that rebuilds components like cylinders are responsible for them. I mean how is the A&P supposed to inspect the valves in an assembled cylinder?

The A&P is ultimately responsible for the dimensions....whether he re-measured the parts or not.

Who decided that they needed to come off and go to the engine shop?

 

[Alexb2000]

The A&P is ultimately responsible for the dimensions....whether he re-measured the parts or not.

Who decided that they needed to come off and go to the engine shop?

OK, interesting, so if I take the valves to the mechanic and they measure up, then they are good? Seems like every mechanic I talk to is deferring to the cylinder shop.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

OK, interesting, so if I take the valves to the mechanic and they measure up, then they are good? Seems like every mechanic I talk to is deferring to the cylinder shop.

If you can find an A&P who will sign them off....then they are magically airworthy.

 

[Alexb2000]

If you can find an A&P who will sign them off....then they are magically airworthy.

Thanks. I'll use that information tomorrow when I meet with the shop manager.

 

[Norman]

ALex,

Personal opinion, but I think you would do well to look for a new shop to maintain your plane.

As a retired A&P/IA I find it unconscionable for any shop to take their customer to the cleaners, and that's what appears to be happening to you.

The cylinder shop sounds like "The shop pf horrors".

 

[N801BH]

ALex,

Personal opinion, but I think you would do well to look for a new shop to maintain your plane.

As a retired A&P/IA I find it unconscionable for any shop to take their customer to the cleaners, and that's what appears to be happening to you.

The cylinder shop sounds like "The shop pf horrors".

Agreed...

My first and LAST experience with a cylinder shop that really specialized in airboats was an absolute trainwreck.....

They will cherrypick everything that comes in and aircraft owners get the royal SHAFT...... BTDT.......


I can expand on the story if you want to hear it....

 

[Alexb2000]

I have just spend about 45 minutes measuring the valves. I get 4 serviceable 2 just under. Of course even holding them in your hands can change the dimension a couple of .0001's. I'll let them sit over night and measure again tomorrow. I highly doubt that these shops are taking a calibrated Etalon Micrometer and measuring each valve 4-5 times to get a dimension. Even so I wonder in an engine with tolerances in thousands how critical a ten thousandth is?

 

[N801BH]

I have just spend about 45 minutes measuring the valves. I get 4 serviceable 2 just under. Of course even holding them in your hands can change the dimension a couple of .0001's. I'll let them sit over night and measure again tomorrow. I highly doubt that these shops are taking a calibrated Etalon Micrometer and measuring each valve 4-5 times to get a dimension. Even so I wonder in an engine with tolerances in thousands how critical a ten thousandth is?

There is a 100% chance the chicken coop overhaul guy would not know 1 ten thou of a inch if it hit him on the side of the head..


Edit....

If it were me at his shop today.. I would have demanded to see his tenth mic.....

You can bet he doesn't even own one.....

 

[Henning]

I have just spend about 45 minutes measuring the valves. I get 4 serviceable 2 just under. Of course even holding them in your hands can change the dimension a couple of .0001's. I'll let them sit over night and measure again tomorrow. I highly doubt that these shops are taking a calibrated Etalon Micrometer and measuring each valve 4-5 times to get a dimension. Even so I wonder in an engine with tolerances in thousands how critical a ten thousandth is?

It depends. If you run cool and LOP, your chances of seeing anything except a bit more oil consumption is pretty low. I haven't cut open one of the sodium filled Lycoming valves so I don't know their wall thickness, but there may be an issue there under hard use. If it was a solid stem it would be no major worry.

 

[Alexb2000]

I can expand on the story if you want to hear it....

Hit me… Oh, wait a minute, let me grab a cold one.


OK ready.

 

[Alexb2000]

ALex,

Personal opinion, but I think you would do well to look for a new shop to maintain your plane.

As a retired A&P/IA I find it unconscionable for any shop to take their customer to the cleaners, and that's what appears to be happening to you.

The cylinder shop sounds like "The shop pf horrors".

I hear you, you're right, that's what I'll being doing once my bird is mobile again. I work on cars, equipment, build things that could hurt someone if they failed, etc. At some point you have to do what makes the most sense and trust your judgement. If you always default to the path of least accountability and maximum cost, then you are doing your customer a dis-service.

 

[N801BH]

It depends. If you run cool and LOP, your chances of seeing anything except a bit more oil consumption is pretty low. I haven't cut open one of the sodium filled Lycoming valves so I don't know their wall thickness, but there may be an issue there under hard use. If it was a solid stem it would be no major worry.

My father owned a industrial / diesel engine rebuild shop in Miami / Motor Service Inc.....

I worked there alot and I would save all the sodium filled exhaust valves.. Every 4th of July I would saw off the heads and plant the stems all over the yard.. After dark I would turn on the sprinklers....... Best fireworks show you have ever seen....

Ps... Wall thickness between the cavity that held the sodium and the OD was about .090"

 

[N801BH]

Hit me… Oh, wait a minute, let me grab a cold one.


OK ready.

Fasten your seat belts and engage your airbags.....

BRB...

 

[Alexb2000]

It depends. If you run cool and LOP, your chances of seeing anything except a bit more oil consumption is pretty low. I haven't cut open one of the sodium filled Lycoming valves so I don't know their wall thickness, but there may be an issue there under hard use. If it was a solid stem it would be no major worry.

I'm talking a debatable .0001 not even .001. You still think oil consumption will be an issue? Of course the guides will be new.

 

[Henning]

I'm talking a debatable .0001 not even .001. You still think oil consumption will be an issue? Of course the guides will be new.

Oil consumption is always an issue, it's just a matter of how much, yes, ten thousandths on a valve to guide clearance makes a difference, but there is no way your oil consumption over the life of the engine will be close to the price of one of those valves.

No, I don't think that the parts were designed and built to be critical of being one ten thousandths under, but I have seen worse design failures in industry so I won't rule it out for you without knowing for sure, you can do that on your own.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm talking a debatable .0001 not even .001. You still think oil consumption will be an issue? Of course the guides will be new.

If you really want to choke chickenman's chain.....ask to see his calibration certs for his measuring equipment.....

I guarantee that +/- one thou will be in the noise of his cal error.....specially if he's using calipers....and not a mic.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

No worries.....dog breath will be by shortly to espouse proper measurement techniques.....

 

[bnt83]

Did your airplane dodge Cessna SEL78-01 and Lycoming SB 614A Cracks in #3 Exhaust Pipes Turbo mount replacement? Revised October 2014 to add engine serial #s.

 

[Ted]

What a train wreck. Glad you got the cylinders.

I'd agree with the new shop/different MX practices. Unexpected downtime will always occur with an airplane, but it can be managed.

 

[dell30rb]

I'll let them sit over night and measure again tomorrow. I highly doubt that these shops are taking a calibrated Etalon Micrometer and measuring each valve 4-5 times to get a dimension. Even so I wonder in an engine with tolerances in thousands how critical a ten thousandth is?

Is there a temperature spec for measuring them? I wouldn't put them in the oven or anything

 

[Henning]

Is there a temperature spec for measuring them? I wouldn't put them in the oven or anything

That is exactly what I would do to get my measurement to hone the guide to (actually a gas forge/furnace), and then heat them before dropping a T-stop down them.