Throttle Jockey

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
Have a look at the coordination (or seemingly lack thereof...depending upon your perspective) of the left hand. Then go back and look at the elevator commands with the right hand and the movement of the throttle.

Is this poor technique or just a pilot doing whatever it takes?

 
you know what they say.....any aircraft carrier landing you can walk away from.....
 
I could do better if it weren't for the fact that the F/A-18 doesn't qualify as an LSA.
That's the only reason.
 
Power for glideslope, stick for speed (AOA). Control inputs for a carrier approach won't look normal to the average GA pilot. There's a *lot* of throttle activity on this kind of approach, particularly when considering the precision required to get aboard the boat. It looks like a normal approach to me.

Nauga,
NEPAW
 
Need to compensate for the spool up time on the turbine so to get 5% more power you need to throw it 20% then back it down (as an example). Plus the weather looks fairly gnarly and wanting to be at full power on touchdown makes it all look rather odd to us.
 
Very cool, thanks for sharing. I would get in trouble if my instructor saw me handling the throttle like that on the Cirrus. Different world.
 
Nope, that’s normal. It’s just a totally different way of flying. Since attitude is SO important, for the proper hook engagement angle, ALL of the glide slope is via throttle.

and you don’t plan on being full throttle at touchdown, you go full throttle after you hit... big difference, you don’t anticipate it.

I didn’t watch just now, but look for a smaller row of green lights above the datum lights and ball, those are “cut lights”, used to indicate clearance to continue the approach without radio calls. Generally a fleet thing, not done during carrier qualification periods.
 
Poor technique? Geez I think not, its really apples and oranges compared to GA flying. Look at the white caps and swells, this runway is bobbing up and down! I have no idea what a real carrier landing must be like, and I have no turbine time at all, but pretty certain these videos (and I watch all the carrier video's I can) really don't even begin to capture what it must be really like to make a landing like that. I always like to notice that once the wheels hit, its full throttle in case they don't catch an arresting wire and have to bolt. Then they back it to idle, plane gets pulled back and cable drops off the hook, and they taxi away. Cool. It would scare the ever livin' crap out of me to do that. PBS did the series about carriers and one part was about doing night landings. Pilot's heart rates are actually higher during night carrier landings then when flying during actual combat. As one pilot said, you never ever get used to night landings.
 
I loved the video (I always enjoy watching carrier landings, but my ancestors are more (Royal) Air Force than Navy (Fleet Air Arm) :)). But the scariest part for me was the taxiing right up against the starboard edge of the flight deck at the end of the video. You really have to trust the guy(s) waving you in…

Dumb question for carrier-qualified and carrier-savvy people out there: do planes get lost going over the edge inadvertently while taxiing much or at all? The consequences seem a little harsh…
 
This is why you go full power on touchdown, albeit an extreme example.

You can also find numerous videos of aircraft going over the side due to various circumstances.

 
considering how much that cable slowed them down before it snaps, an outright miracle they flew out of that dunk. No hot seats either. If they didn't get hardware out of that stunt I'd be appalled at the USN.

ETA: Stand corrected, they did get AMs. Interesting read too, as it appears there was a much worse outcome aboard the ship as a result of the cable whipping into flattop personnel. Gnarly injuries.
 
hindsight2020 said:
considering how much that cable slowed them down before it snaps, an outright miracle they flew out of that dunk. No hot seats either. If they didn't get hardware out of that stunt I'd be appalled at the USN.

ETA: Stand corrected, they did get AMs. Interesting read too, as it appears there was a much worse outcome aboard the ship as a result of the cable whipping into flattop personnel. Gnarly injuries.
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I remember when it happened. It was a rough day for local hospitals. Fortunately, they were right off the coast when it happened and were able to airlift the injured sailors immediately.
 
woywoyboy said:
Dumb question for carrier-qualified and carrier-savvy people out there: do planes get lost going over the edge inadvertently while taxiing much or at all? The consequences seem a little harsh…
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There is a low (about 1 foot high) steel railing all along the sides of the flight deck and then catwalks just below the flight deck, so an aircraft would have to be going pretty fast to be lost over the side.
 
PaulS said:
Very cool, thanks for sharing. I would get in trouble if my instructor saw me handling the throttle like that on the Cirrus. Different world.
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Flying turbine aircraft really is different. You don't have to (shouldn't) do such throttle movements when flying piston aircraft. But with a jet, it is sometimes essential. Next time when you're sitting in the cabin during an approach in turbulent conditions, consider something that aggressive is similarly happening in the cockpit to keep the aircraft stabilized.
 
Fearless Tower said:
There is a low (about 1 foot high) steel railing all along the sides of the flight deck and then catwalks just below the flight deck, so an aircraft would have to be going pretty fast to be lost over the side.
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All the carriers I was on only had a few inch high “railing” (scupper i think), and then not everywhere. My father was on a carrier, a yeoman, and personally witnessed one go over the side as a result of lost brakes coming out of the landing area after an arrestment, it happens. The deal is, as soon as you “break the (horizontal) plane”, you are no longer in the ejection envelope (for seats back then). So you had to make up your mind BEFORE you thought you might go over the edge. We talked about it a lot.
 
Tools said:
All the carriers I was on only had a few inch high “railing” (scupper i think), and then not everywhere. My father was on a carrier, a yeoman, and personally witnessed one go over the side as a result of lost brakes coming out of the landing area after an arrestment, it happens. The deal is, as soon as you “break the (horizontal) plane”, you are no longer in the ejection envelope (for seats back then). So you had to make up your mind BEFORE you thought you might go over the edge. We talked about it a lot.
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Not sure when the last time was you were on a flight deck, but it is much more substantial than a scupper or knife edge. It’s not a full foot high, but several inches and beefy. Higher than standard USN wheel chocks.

The CVNs and LHDs I’ve been on have it. Obviously not across the forward edge or ramp, but it runs the length of the sides.

Again, it’s not going to stop everything, but will slow it down. You’d have to have a decent amount of speed to get over the curb and beyond the catwalk to go in the drink.
 
noahfong said:
Flying turbine aircraft really is different. You don't have to (shouldn't) do such throttle movements when flying piston aircraft. But with a jet, it is sometimes essential. Next time when you're sitting in the cabin during an approach in turbulent conditions, consider something that aggressive is similarly happening in the cockpit to keep the aircraft stabilized.
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Kinda true. Airliners are so big and heavy, and considering we only have to land in a couple thousand foot long area, that kind of throttle jockeying really isn’t necessary. For me, it’s just how I learned and am worse than most. I got a funny comment from a jump seater once, “man, you sure jockey the throttles a LOT, but I didn’t see the airspeed change a knot!” I took it as a high complement!

even in light civil airplanes I fully configure abeam, no final flaps crossing the threshold here, and tend to jockey the throttle more than most. I finally just quit trying to change who i am!

And then there’s the venerable MD-88... The yoke only moves the trim tabs. So TONS of stick jockeying to manage breakout forces to fly very precisely. I’m a hoot to watch on a gusty day. We always referred to it as fighting snakes in the cockpit.

So I transition to 75’s, a VERY gentlemanly airplane. I’m shooting down the chute doin my thang, airplane feels like a donkey cart on railroad tracks, check airman just grabs the yoke and immobilizes it, jet gets dead smooth, and he just yells, “damn 88 guys!” I’m like, well I’ll be, guess it isn’t so gusty after all... hmmm... hehe
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure when the last time was you were on a flight deck, but it is much more substantial than a scupper or knife edge. It’s not a full foot high, but several inches and beefy. Higher than standard USN wheel chocks.

The CVNs and LHDs I’ve been on have it. Obviously not across the forward edge or ramp, but it runs the length of the sides.

Again, it’s not going to stop everything, but will slow it down. You’d have to have a decent amount of speed to get over the curb and beyond the catwalk to go in the drink.
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We are not disagreeing! The point was it wasn’t obvious it would stop you. And you had to decide BEFORE you got there. If there was ANY question in your mind, it may as well not be there at all.

So the better question is, did anyone ever eject on the deck, to THEN witness the deck edge stop their jet? No clue. Would be no judgement on them if so!

The young guys working the deck, as far as I was concerned, were the most amazing humans I ever had the pleasure of knowing. I got the impression they’d dive under your wheels before they ever let one of their jets or pilots go over the side... simply amazing people. Honestly nearly everyone was like that, I just got to work with them the most. 12 hour shifts on that damn deck in the gulf during the summer. I’ll never know how they did it... unreal.

Hehe, one day towards the end of deployment I remarked to my plane captain that it must be nearing fall, it seemed nice and cool... he replied, YA! It’s only a hundred degrees! Geesh....
 
woywoyboy said:
But the scariest part for me was the taxiing right up against the starboard edge of the flight deck at the end of the video. You really have to trust the guy(s) waving you in…
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Sitting in front of the nose gear makes for some interesting times. One new moon night, I was being marshalled aggressively towards the edge. I got to a point to where I had to stop. The yellow shirt kept giving me the taxi forward signal. I shook my head. He dropped his head, frustrated, and then gave me the "little bit" finger sign then taxi forward. I smiled and chuckled into my mask, but again shook my head. He acquiesced and turned me to get chocked and chained. We had a good laugh about it after I came down the ladder.

Look for the white shirt in that video on the Ike. Hands on his head in an "Oh no!" position when the Screwtop disappears below the angle, then he raises them in victory when they fly back into view. Captures the moment nicely.
 
catmandu said:
Sitting in front of the nose gear makes for some interesting times. One new moon night, I was being marshalled aggressively towards the edge. I got to a point to where I had to stop. The yellow shirt kept giving me the taxi forward signal. I shook my head. He dropped his head, frustrated, and then gave me the "little bit" finger sign then taxi forward. I smiled and chuckled into my mask, but again shook my head. He acquiesced and turned me to get chocked and chained. We had a good laugh about it after I came down the ladder.

Look for the white shirt in that video on the Ike. Hands on his head in an "Oh no!" position when the Screwtop disappears below the angle, then he raises them in victory when they fly back into view. Captures the moment nicely.
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I've read that about the Vigilante, that there were times the cockpit was over the edge while taxiing on the deck.
 
Tools said:
Kinda true. Airliners are so big and heavy, and considering we only have to land in a couple thousand foot long area, that kind of throttle jockeying really isn’t necessary. For me, it’s just how I learned and am worse than most. I got a funny comment from a jump seater once, “man, you sure jockey the throttles a LOT, but I didn’t see the airspeed change a knot!” I took it as a high complement!

even in light civil airplanes I fully configure abeam, no final flaps crossing the threshold here, and tend to jockey the throttle more than most. I finally just quit trying to change who i am!

And then there’s the venerable MD-88... The yoke only moves the trim tabs. So TONS of stick jockeying to manage breakout forces to fly very precisely. I’m a hoot to watch on a gusty day. We always referred to it as fighting snakes in the cockpit.

So I transition to 75’s, a VERY gentlemanly airplane. I’m shooting down the chute doin my thang, airplane feels like a donkey cart on railroad tracks, check airman just grabs the yoke and immobilizes it, jet gets dead smooth, and he just yells, “damn 88 guys!” I’m like, well I’ll be, guess it isn’t so gusty after all... hmmm... hehe
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dont forget that great spool up time on the mad dog. you could go get a sandwich and get back before it spooled up.
 
My father in law flew radial flow jets, f9f-2s ?, apparently they were REALLY bad. Take runway and firewall it. Do taxi checks, before takeoff, build your nest, wait for clearance... hehe.

I, too, had a time where I just crossed my arms and shook my head. Pleading and begging got lots of sympathy but no movement out of the jet. Too scared, just wasn’t happening. Always warranted a trip to find the guy and beg forgiveness! Which was always granted.

of course went both ways, old butter bean, a ginormous yellow shirt named butterworth, DISAPPEARED from sight over the edge.. WTF? Me and Postal just stared in disbelief, he was walking backwards while marshaling, big no no, and GONE.

before we regained our composure his big old grape pops up from the catwalk... quick glance both ways and kept marshalling us without skipping a beat! We peed ourselves!

As soon as chalked he was in the cockpit asking if we told anyone! Nope! Another big chuckle to be had by all. Nary a scratch, hell of a move he pulled off.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not sure when the last time was you were on a flight deck, but it is much more substantial than a scupper or knife edge. It’s not a full foot high, but several inches and beefy. Higher than standard USN wheel chocks.

The CVNs and LHDs I’ve been on have it. Obviously not across the forward edge or ramp, but it runs the length of the sides.
Click to expand...

It may seem that way but it's not. It's 3" at most and there are a lot of breaks in it with no lip. With my jet weighing 56K at launch and 45K on return the deck lip and scupper represents virtually no impediment to a 20"-ish tire rolling over it and off the ship. If we lost brakes or headed for the deck edge if we hit the scupper the command was "eject" to enable everyone's seat to clear the jet before the angle of the plane got us out of the ejection envelope. (traps on Indy, Ranger, Kitty Hawk, Kennedy, Nimitz, Lincoln, TR, Ike, Stennis, Truman, Enterprise, GW)
 
Tools said:
of course went both ways, old butter bean, a ginormous yellow shirt named butterworth, DISAPPEARED from sight over the edge.. WTF? Me and Postal just stared in disbelief, he was walking backwards while marshaling, big no no, and GONE.

before we regained our composure his big old grape pops up from the catwalk... quick glance both ways and kept marshalling us without skipping a beat! We peed ourselves!
Click to expand...

:rofl: I've been laughing 5 minutes straight just imaging this.
 
Tools said:
The yoke only moves the trim tabs.
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To avoid confusing anyone, they are Control Tabs.

There are also Balance Tabs on the elevators (the elevators each float independently) which are geared to the elevator and stabilizer position to 'recalibrate' the neutral elevator position as the stabilizer moves. Pitch trim, as with most transport jets, is accomplished by a moveable stabilizer. The entire DC9 series uses two electric motors to move the stabilizer, a larger primary trim (pilots), and a small secondary trim (autopilot and pilot backup). The DC8 used a hydraulic motor for the primary trim and electric for secondary/backup.

On the DC9 series, the only powered primary flight control is the rudder. Ailerons and elevators are flown by Control Tabs. The elevator has a hydraulic actuator but it only fires in a situation that would occur in a deep stall where the wings have blanked airflow over the tail removing the ability of the Control Tabs to move the elevator.

The DC8 had powered ailerons and rudder but the elevator was still flown by Control Tabs.

The DC10, as we learned from UAL232, was completely hydraulic for all flight controls.
 
I stand corrected as you are totally correct!

Trivia, the MD-90 has a powered elevator... and the 717 might, never flown that, but I seem to recall that from somewhere. Pretty sure the 717 shares the same type rating. The -90 flies very oddly to me. Most of the ones, maybe all of them, I flew were Chinese. Seemed to have gremlins. Could have just been in my head!
 
Tools said:
Trivia, the MD-90 has a powered elevator... and the 717 might, never flown that, but I seem to recall that from somewhere.
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I did not know that. Never flew anything newer than the DC9-41. Strange that they changed it.
 
Hehe, the -90 “fixed” all the problems. Ooooookay.

I never flew anything older than a -88, or newer than a -90! Had no idea it was a DC-9 type until my new card came in the mail.
 
Larry in TN said:
To avoid confusing anyone, they are Control Tabs.

On the DC9 series, the only powered primary flight control is the rudder. Ailerons and elevators are flown by Control Tabs.
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I think I've told this before, but I made a fool of myself before one one mad dog flight, both of the ailerons were up, and as a newly minted PPL I just *KNEW* that wasn't right. As a FA walked by, I told her something on the wing didn't look right, so she had the FO walk back. He looked out the windows and laughed and said "Yeah, those are controlled by tabs. The wind at the gate blew them up, but they'll drop into place as we accelerate down the runway." Me? Red faced. :redface:

And yes, they dropped down on the takeoff roll.
 
How hard is it to taxi once you've turned 90 degrees to the relative wind? A 40+ knot wind might make it interesting...
 
A friend with about 700 traps flew the tanker aircraft above......to refuel a fighter after an abort. He said it was completely normal.
 
Bill said:
one mad dog flight, both of the ailerons were up, and as a newly minted PPL I just *KNEW* that wasn't right. As a FA walked by, I told her something on the wing didn't look right, so she had the FO walk back. He looked out the windows and laughed and said "Yeah,
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Not sure what you were seeing. The ailerons are connected by the Aileron Bus Cable so it shouldn't be possible for them to both displace in the same direction, but they can move around in a strong wind on the ground. The elevators are separate, and not bussed, so they can, and frequently do, wander around independently while on the ground.

I'm trying to think of what you might have been seeing but I haven't flown the DC9 since 2009. The Control Tabs are connected by cables to the control wheels so they move like conventional ailerons, just in the opposite direction of what you'd expect. I believe you also had trim tabs on the ailerons but that's a bit fuzzy.

Flaps are also on a bus cable to prevent, well limit, asymmetric flaps. Spoilers are hydraulically actuated as are the leading-edge slats. The slats, as well as the trailing-edge flaps, can droop when there is no hydraulic pressure but won't be pushed around by wind.

The ailerons are the only things on the wing that could be moved by the wind on the ground.
 
Larry in TN said:
I'm trying to think of what you might have been seeing but I haven't flown the DC9 since 2009. The Control Tabs are connected by cables to the control wheels so they move like conventional ailerons, just in the opposite direction of what you'd expect. I believe you also had trim tabs on the ailerons but that's a bit fuzzy.

Flaps are also on a bus cable to prevent, well limit, asymmetric flaps. Spoilers are hydraulically actuated as are the leading-edge slats. The slats, as well as the trailing-edge flaps, can droop when there is no hydraulic pressure but won't be pushed around by wind.

The ailerons are the only things on the wing that could be moved by the wind on the ground.
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It was probably an 80 or 88, but both were definitely up, which was why I brought it up to the FO when he came back.
 
Bill said:
It was probably an 80 or 88, but both were definitely up, which was why I brought it up to the FO when he came back.
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The MD-80 series, including the MD-88, are DC9s. The name was changed for marketing purposes after Douglas Aircraft Company merged with the McDonnell Aircraft.

What I'm saying is that both ailerons can not be up at the same time unless the Aileron Bus Cable is broken.

During the walk-around, I'd test the bus cable by pushing the right aileron up. When I reached the left wing I'd verify that the left aileron was down.
 
Pugs said:
It may seem that way but it's not. It's 3" at most and there are a lot of breaks in it with no lip. With my jet weighing 56K at launch and 45K on return the deck lip and scupper represents virtually no impediment to a 20"-ish tire rolling over it and off the ship. If we lost brakes or headed for the deck edge if we hit the scupper the command was "eject" to enable everyone's seat to clear the jet before the angle of the plane got us out of the ejection envelope. (traps on Indy, Ranger, Kitty Hawk, Kennedy, Nimitz, Lincoln, TR, Ike, Stennis, Truman, Enterprise, GW)
Click to expand...
Apparently my memory is a bit fuzzy. It's actually 4" high. The official nomenclature of the part I'm referring to is the wheel stop comings. I just asked a former sailor of mine, now an ABHCS from HST.
 
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