Thoughts on FAA/EAA's response to Jack Roush's Accident

[roncachamp]

a quick search in the NTSB database back to 1962 shows 3 pages + 1 entry for fatals at Oshkosh. Nearest I can tell about 4 of those didn't take place in or around airshow time (End of July/Beginning of August).

From 1962 through 1969 the EAA convention was at Rockford. I get 31 hits for a search of fatal accidents at Oshkosh between 1970 and the present, but some of them are counted twice. Beck's P-51A and the P-51D he ran into are both listed, as are the RV-6 and TBM from the year before. I count 21 fatal accidents at OSH for late July and early August. Much more than I would have guessed.

 

[tonycondon]

and that of course doesn't include any accidents at the outlying fields or other accidents of people travelling to/from the airshow. Even if there was a midair over Fisk and people died the accident might not be listed under "Oshkosh, WI" in the database if they listed the accident under a town closer to the actual accident. Not saying that that has happened, I don't know if it has or hasn't.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Steven: I realize you and Tony just discussing OSH, but there are many accidents/incidents that occur on the way up and back. Difficult to count and maybe a bit off point, but any discussions of the Air show accidents should take those into consideration even if they can't be quantified completely.

There seems to be an unwillingness to report violations and incidents also. The fella that pulled out in front of me made an active runway violation--no mention of reporting it. AND, that doesn't count the stupid things that are done like the fella in front of me landing on the wrong dot that aren't really violations---wink, wink.

Best,

Dave

 

[ScottM]

i for one don't think that a fatal mid air would have a serious impact on the airshow. There are fatal accidents many years at Oshkosh and the general attitude seems to be "The Show Must Go On"

Closing the entire airport seems to be standard response at any airport with fire and rescue equipment. I recall a time in Des Moines when an airliner was coming in to land with an emergency. The airport was closed as soon as the emergency was declared and not reopened until the airplane approaching was safely off the runway. The rest of us stuck up in the air had to make our own plan.

You don't have to joint he beehive over the lake. We are PIC's, not Lemmings. You don't HAVE to get to Oshkosh that night.

If I crash at Oshkosh I hope that they have any and all available emergency equipment available to help me out. Not half of the available emergency equipment because there was another crash an hour earlier but the incoming pilots didn't want to be inconvenienced with a stop on arrivals.

Exactly Tony.

Can thing be done better? Sure there is always room for improvement, but I think the disdain that the OP has for those that run the Oshkosh event and airport is a bit over the top, especially with his demands that other people freely contribute their labor and resources so he can drink their beer and watch airplanes.

 

[ScottM]

Trolling is forbidden on this board

Glad you know that. I have to ask why you continuously troll then? You posted to start an argument. You have not listened to one suggestion and believe in your own superiority in the topic at hand.

It certainly appears that you had no other purpose than to start an arguments with people.

 

[jesse]

Glad you know that. I have to ask why you continuously troll then? You posted to start an argument. You have not listened to one suggestion and believe in your own superiority in the topic at hand.

It certainly appears that you had no other purpose than to start an arguments with people.

Oh please Scott. Your above post is a troll in itself. I've seen Jay post plenty of good stuff and he entered into this conversation with good intentions. He was pointing out a valid issue and ATTEMPTING to come up with a solution. More useful then all the other people who'd just rather bash rather then contribute.

Should the airport shut down if there is an accident which isn't a threat to any runway? No it really shouldn't. Should other landings be attempted while the single emergency crew is occupied? No. If there were a crash lawyers would sue EAA out of existence. Perhaps we approach EAA with the question.

 

[roncachamp]

Steven: I realize you and Tony just discussing OSH, but there are many accidents/incidents that occur on the way up and back. Difficult to count and maybe a bit off point, but any discussions of the Air show accidents should take those into consideration even if they can't be quantified completely.

I'd agree for those that may occur in the areas covered by the AirVenture NOTAM. But if, for example, somebody has a mishap in Kansas on the way to Oshkosh I wouldn't consider that an Air show accident.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

a quick search in the NTSB database back to 1962 shows 3 pages + 1 entry for fatals at Oshkosh. Nearest I can tell about 4 of those didn't take place in or around airshow time (End of July/Beginning of August).

IIRC, The first on-site fatal accident was about 1980 (give or take a year) - a T-18 stall spin turning real short final onto 18. Hit the wingtip, landed upside down, fuel cap came off, both occupants burned while the air show crowd (including me) watched. (Attemps to move the aircraft were unsuccessful - it was lying in a pool of fuel.)

The fire truck took too long to get there to save the occupants - they changed the procedures / staffing / truck locations / etc. for the next year.

 

[jestertoo]

i for one don't think that a fatal mid air would have a serious impact on the airshow. There are fatal accidents many years at Oshkosh and the general attitude seems to be "The Show Must Go On"
.....

If I crash at Oshkosh I hope that they have any and all available emergency equipment available to help me out. Not half of the available emergency equipment because there was another crash an hour earlier but the incoming pilots didn't want to be inconvenienced with a stop on arrivals.

The show must go on, yes. That doesn't mean that after years and years of deaths that people don't get sick of it. I'll also add, A single fatal midair that causes injury on the ground doesn't ever do any good for our public image. You can look at the race Mustang that crashed and killed a family. That killed the air races in Cleveland.

So you would rather have a fatal midair miles away from 1/2 the equipment when the holding pattern got stacked with a bunch of novice pilots on indefinite hold trying to pee in a bottle lest they divert and lose their spot in line?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I'd agree for those that may occur in the areas covered by the AirVenture NOTAM. But if, for iexample, somebody has a mishap in Kansas on the way to Oshkosh I wouldn't consider that an Air show accident.

So if one departs Dallas for OSH non-stop and has a problem on the way, or someone tries to make it back from OSH and runs out of fuel north of Dallas like a friend in an RV-6 couple years ago, that's not related to the OSH tirp---right?

That's the point. A lot of folks plan for this trip and have issues on the way, there or on the way back. If one could quantify all of that, they would get a much better picture of how accidents/incidents relate to this event. That it happened within the NOTAMed area would relate more to how the controllers handled things, sequencing, etc. My perspective is a lot of folks that aren't highly proficient, and that may not have the most airworthy aircraft decide to go to this event. They stretch things going, arriving, departing and getting back, BUT it would be very difficult to scientifically quantify unless flight plans were filed that could be tracked. Of course, many VFR folks do not file. If I fly in IFR, I often land nearby or cancel in the air and fly into OSH VFR with no flight plan.

Best,

Dave

 

[Trapper John]

So you would rather have a fatal midair miles away from 1/2 the equipment when the holding pattern got stacked with a bunch of novice pilots on indefinite hold trying to pee in a bottle lest they lose their spot in line?

No, I'd rather have pilots smart enough not to put themselves in that position, but I'd be willing to accept the Darwinian solution.

 

[roncachamp]

IIRC, The first on-site fatal accident was about 1980 (give or take a year) - a T-18 stall spin turning real short final onto 18.

No, it was in 1974 that Dewey Bryan was killed. He had a roadable airplane of his own design. Foldable wings, of course, and one of the locking pins let go when he was in the fly-by pattern.

 

[roncachamp]

So if one departs Dallas for OSH non-stop and has a problem on the way, or someone tries to make it back from OSH and runs out of fuel north of Dallas like a friend in an RV-6 couple years ago, that's not related to the OSH tirp---right?

I believe the term you used was "Air show accidents". No, I wouldn't consider what you describe to be an "Air show accident" any more than I would consider it to be a "grandma accident" if the mishap occurred while enroute to grandma's house for Thanksgiving.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

No, it was in 1974 that Dewey Bryan was killed. He had a roadable airplane of his own design. Foldable wings, of course, and one of the locking pins let go when he was in the fly-by pattern.

OK. I guess my mind ran two things together - the T-18 accident and the first on site fatal (I was there in '74 also (and flew in the fly-by)).

 

[shenanigans]

That policy [airport closing on crash] is just lawyer-speak, dictated by some bitchy "risk manager" who was hired to make sure that no "risk" is ever assumed. I, for one, refuse to live in their world.

Further, I defy anyone to come up with the odds of having two serious crashes on Wittman Field simultaneously, where the second accident occurs before the first one is properly dealt with. I suspect that your odds of winning the lottery are significantly greater than of this happening, but we'll have to ask an actuary to chime in here.

Of course it depends on what you're considering serious, but your lottery estimate is way off. I'm not an actuary and more importantly I don't know how often the emergency equipment is used or the distribution of airport operations. But if the equipment is needed 3-4 times during the entire event, my ballpark guess is around a 5% annual chance of an event needing the equipment happening within an hour of an earlier one.

What are your odds of getting in a midair while circling waiting for the airport to open? Approximately 0% if you don't hang around. It will obviously be higher if choose to remain there.

 

[dmccormack]

Glad you know that. I have to ask why you continuously troll then? You posted to start an argument. You have not listened to one suggestion and believe in your own superiority in the topic at hand.

It certainly appears that you had no other purpose than to start an arguments with people.

Not sure about that, but there seems to be a "Guess what I'm thinking" game going on and if folks don't guess "right," well, then, try again.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay, I agree with you that a mass gaggle of holding VFR airplanes is a bad idea (and we heard 1.5 hours from someone who was holding during the incident), and I agree that a fatality in the air could result in serious damage to the show.

Assuming that the FAA and EAA can't/won't change the policy, do you think that there are other options? I was trying to suggest some changes so that planes in the air would be encouraged to divert rather than loiter when the field is closed.

I'm assuming the On-Scene-Commander (OSC) is using good judgement and if he decides the airport has to be closed, how the FAA could safely manage the aircraft in the air.

First, for the FAA/EAA to not change their "close-the-whole-airport-after-every-crash" policy is unwise, IMHO. Let's get that out of the way up front. IMHO there is no reason to close the entire airport because of an accident that happened over a mile from the active runway. Further, there was no reason for them not to extend the airport hours to accommodate the dozens (or hundreds) of pilots who were still trying to get into the show that evening.

If the FAA/EAA wants to minimize risk to pilots in the air, they are going to have to change this policy, IMHO.

That said, however, assuming you are right, and we can't get them to change the policy, improved communication is the key to helping the situation. Publishing the airport closure policy in the NOTAM (if, indeed, it is written somewhere that "Wittman Field will close after every accident") would help greatly. Letting participating pilots know that any on-field incident means landing somewhere else would eliminate any doubt, and enhance safety.

Anything short of that sort of black & white policy, however, will lead to pilots optimistically hoping that the airport will re-open "soon". This is especially true of guys who have been trying to get into the show for three days, as was the case this year. It's just human nature to try and "wait it out" if there is any hope of getting in.

Picture yourself this year. Let's say you're a guy who has flown for two days just to get to the show. Due to on-field flooding you have diverted to another airport -- so you've now spent 48 hours (and gobs of $$) putting your family up in a hotel somewhere in the Upper Midwest, biding your time.

EAA's information has been marginal at best, so no one really knows when -- or if -- the field will open. You're starting to think that you may have just wasted a week's worth of vacation time, your family is getting pi**ed, and you're frustrated that you're not where you're supposed to be.

FINALLY you get the word that that the airport is open to arrivals after the airshow, and you launch -- only to have the door slammed in your face because of a policy that dictates closing the airport after every crash, regardless of logic.

This is the situation that many pilots faced at OSH that evening. In the end, everyone performed their PIC duties admirably, thankfully, but it could have easily gone the other way.

Think about this: If the NTSB was investigating the chain of events leading up to an accident in the FISK approach that evening, would they have included this series of frustrating events in their report? You betcha.

We can't have one group of bureaucrats enhancing safety on the ground by implementing policies that reduce safety in the air. There needs to be a happy medium. I'm sure everyone is striving to find that "medium", and it certainly isn't beyond reach -- but we need to 'splain the situation to those who control the event in order to get this fixed.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Exactly Tony.

Can thing be done better? Sure there is always room for improvement, but I think the disdain that the OP has for those that run the Oshkosh event and airport is a bit over the top, especially with his demands that other people freely contribute their labor and resources so he can drink their beer and watch airplanes.

Troll. Again.

 

[Jay Honeck]

No, I'd rather have pilots smart enough not to put themselves in that position, but I'd be willing to accept the Darwinian solution.

I would respectfully submit that this attitude will be the death of Airventure. Thankfully, few adhere to it.

Yes, accidents happen. Yes, people die every year on their way to/from the show. But to cavalierly dismiss this as "the Darwinian Solution" rather than trying to identify and address choke-points in the chain of events leading to these accidents is irresponsible.

I've identified a choke-point. Let's see if we can fix it, rather than simply dismissing its existence as some sort of a test of airmanship.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Jay- Has anything been sent to EAA? Making a suggestion here is nice...but few (if anyone) on this board do much more thay pay EAA dues. Some o0f the EAA management seem to be on the Oshkosh365 forums, but I haven't seen you post there where it may do more good, and someone "on the inside" may be able to give more information to work with.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Of course it depends on what you're considering serious, but your lottery estimate is way off. I'm not an actuary and more importantly I don't know how often the emergency equipment is used or the distribution of airport operations. But if the equipment is needed 3-4 times during the entire event, my ballpark guess is around a 5% annual chance of an event needing the equipment happening within an hour of an earlier one.

What are your odds of getting in a midair while circling waiting for the airport to open? Approximately 0% if you don't hang around. It will obviously be higher if choose to remain there.

I don't think it's inappropriate to close the field immediately after an accident in order to give emergency responders time to assess the situation. Obviously an event of Airventure's magnitude means that an "accident" can range from "slight impact" (as in the Roush accident) to "catastrophic impact" (picture the DC-7 augering into the Warbirds area, as one horrible possible scenario) -- so the policy of immediate closure clears the air for responders.

The debate is over what happens next.

Right now, what happens next is...nothing. The field remains closed, even if the crash site is secure and there is obviously no impact on airport operations outside of the immediate crash site, as was the case with the Roush accident.

This is done for the sake of on-airport safety, because of insufficient emergency equipment. I'm suggesting that this policy be changed to allow the airport to reopen more quickly after the crash, in order to enhance safety in the air. IMHO the policy of keeping the airport closed, and ultimately closing the field for the night without ever reopening (despite ample daylight), decreased flight safety at OSH '10 for no apparent reason.

As to whether pilots are better off staying in the hold or diverting, that's always going to be an issue that's hard to deal with, because it involves too many variables. I therefore am restricting my discussion to policy matters that contribute to the situation.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Jay- Has anything been sent to EAA? Making a suggestion here is nice...but few (if anyone) on this board do much more thay pay EAA dues. Some o0f the EAA management seem to be on the Oshkosh365 forums, but I haven't seen you post there where it may do more good, and someone "on the inside" may be able to give more information to work with.

I was looking for viable solutions from fellow pilots here (and over on the Cherokee Pilots Association/Piper Owners Society site) before bringing it up to EAA. Sadly, the usual trolls here have acted to stifle constructive debate somewhat.

The good news? I've been told that this situation IS being discussed inside the EAA organization, same as it was last time this sort of thing happened. The OSH organizers are wonderful people, all working toward the common goal of conducting a safe event, and I have absolute faith that they will address this situation promptly and properly.

 

[kyleb]

First, for the FAA/EAA to not change their "close-the-whole-airport-after-every-crash" policy is unwise, IMHO. Let's get that out of the way up front. IMHO there is no reason to close the entire airport because of an accident that happened over a mile from the active runway. Further, there was no reason for them not to extend the airport hours to accommodate the dozens (or hundreds) of pilots who were still trying to get into the show that evening.

If the FAA/EAA wants to minimize risk to pilots in the air, they are going to have to change this policy, IMHO.

That said, however, assuming you are right, and we can't get them to change the policy, improved communication is the key to helping the situation.

I'm sure they have written procedures for dealing with accidents. In this case, the accident was serious enough that they felt it wise to close the field. Maybe the emergency vehicles needed to cross 09/27. Maybe they had recovery or environmental equipment that needed to cross that runway and they wanted to get everything handled in the daylight, as opposed to trying to figure out and handle everything in the dark, which is what might have been required if access was limited by 09/27 arrivals and taxiing.

I, for one, woudn't like to be an emergency responder having to cross under the arriving traffic. Beyond that, there is already plenty of pilot distraction at Osh. Having Joe 6-pack in his 172 trying to eyeball the accident site instead of flying his airplane is another risk. Maybe they wanted to avoid *that* potential accident.

I agree that they need to do a better job of providing information when these things occur - that should be part of their gameplan. BUT, it may be that the emergency folks have more pressing things to deal with such as injuries, taking reports, clearing wreckage, stopping/cleaning up fuel spills, etc. and were preoccupied with those duties.

Certainly, information flow is something to work on, but I don't fault whoever closed the field.

As far as extending the arrival hours, that's a bad idea. It can take a surprisingly long time to reach parking after you land at Osh. Been there, done that (Thursday, in fact). So they have to consider that they want all the props stopped and the airplanes parked well before dark, otherwise somebody will have *that* accident.

The bottom line is that most of the procedures at an event like Osh are pretty well thought out and need to be followed. There is no pressing need for Joe 172 to get to Oshkosh - if safety dictates, he's gotta be smart enough to change his plan. And the folks at Osh need to help him out by providing as much information as they have available.

 

[dmccormack]

Picture yourself this year. Let's say you're a guy who has flown for two days just to get to the show. Due to on-field flooding you have diverted to another airport -- so you've now spent 48 hours (and gobs of $$) putting your family up in a hotel somewhere in the Upper Midwest, biding your time.

EAA's information has been marginal at best, so no one really knows when -- or if -- the field will open. You're starting to think that you may have just wasted a week's worth of vacation time, your family is getting pi**ed, and you're frustrated that you're not where you're supposed to be.

FINALLY you get the word that that the airport is open to arrivals after the airshow, and you launch -- only to have the door slammed in your face because of a policy that dictates closing the airport after every crash, regardless of logic.

Which is precisely why Oshkosh isn't a family vacation destination for many "aviation" families.

GA is not train service -- if you *must* be somewhere -- drive.

If you as PIC cannot address pressures such as extra hotel nights, etc, etc , you have no business flying with the family.

 

[wabower]

If you can tell them exactly what kind of accident(s) will occur, I'm betting they will be able to give you an exact answer about how long the field will be closed. If not, it's going to be a case-by-case scenario and the priorities will never be based on the people and airplanes that are enroute.

I forfeited some room deposit money and then spent another extra night t in Madison due to all the foulups that occurred with the weather and other stuff. It's part of the drill, and I'm willing to bet that all the moving parts (and people required to move them, including input from the FAA) create a very difficult task for everyone involved.

There are thousands of stories every year about plans that went awry for some reason or another. My best advice is to be damn sure you're not the reason they have to close the airport.

First, for the FAA/EAA to not change their "close-the-whole-airport-after-every-crash" policy is unwise, IMHO. Let's get that out of the way up front. IMHO there is no reason to close the entire airport because of an accident that happened over a mile from the active runway. Further, there was no reason for them not to extend the airport hours to accommodate the dozens (or hundreds) of pilots who were still trying to get into the show that evening.

If the FAA/EAA wants to minimize risk to pilots in the air, they are going to have to change this policy, IMHO.

That said, however, assuming you are right, and we can't get them to change the policy, improved communication is the key to helping the situation. Publishing the airport closure policy in the NOTAM (if, indeed, it is written somewhere that "Wittman Field will close after every accident") would help greatly. Letting participating pilots know that any on-field incident means landing somewhere else would eliminate any doubt, and enhance safety.

Anything short of that sort of black & white policy, however, will lead to pilots optimistically hoping that the airport will re-open "soon". This is especially true of guys who have been trying to get into the show for three days, as was the case this year. It's just human nature to try and "wait it out" if there is any hope of getting in.

Picture yourself this year. Let's say you're a guy who has flown for two days just to get to the show. Due to on-field flooding you have diverted to another airport -- so you've now spent 48 hours (and gobs of $$) putting your family up in a hotel somewhere in the Upper Midwest, biding your time.

EAA's information has been marginal at best, so no one really knows when -- or if -- the field will open. You're starting to think that you may have just wasted a week's worth of vacation time, your family is getting pi**ed, and you're frustrated that you're not where you're supposed to be.

FINALLY you get the word that that the airport is open to arrivals after the airshow, and you launch -- only to have the door slammed in your face because of a policy that dictates closing the airport after every crash, regardless of logic.

This is the situation that many pilots faced at OSH that evening. In the end, everyone performed their PIC duties admirably, thankfully, but it could have easily gone the other way.

Think about this: If the NTSB was investigating the chain of events leading up to an accident in the FISK approach that evening, would they have included this series of frustrating events in their report? You betcha.

We can't have one group of bureaucrats enhancing safety on the ground by implementing policies that reduce safety in the air. There needs to be a happy medium. I'm sure everyone is striving to find that "medium", and it certainly isn't beyond reach -- but we need to 'splain the situation to those who control the event in order to get this fixed.

 

[zebra]

If you can tell them exactly what kind of accident(s) will occur, I'm betting they will be able to give you an exact answer about how long the field will be closed. If not, it's going to be a case-by-case scenario and the priorities will never be based on the people and airplanes that are enroute.

I forfeited some room deposit money and then spent another extra night t in Madison due to all the foulups that occurred with the weather and other stuff. It's part of the drill, and I'm willing to bet that all the moving parts (and people required to move them, including input from the FAA) create a very difficult task for everyone involved.

There are thousands of stories every year about plans that went awry for some reason or another. My best advice is to be damn sure you're not the reason they have to close the airport.

God wouldn't that suck! The only thing that would make it worse, (barring the obvious; fatalities, injury to bystanders, etc.,) would be if you were someone famous that screwed up!

I tend to see part of the point of the OP, and do wonder how the crash tied up the emergency workers long after the victims had left in the ambulance?

But then I thought of the fire truck standing by in case spilled fuel caught fire while the wreckage was removed, and the emergency personnel trying to keep attendees from getting too close to the wreckage.

I do think the local area makes enough money off this event to maybe lease an extra truck and crew to do the stand-by duties so as to free up the regular emergency response crew.

I also thought of the fact that you don't want people trying to find that perfect camping spot by taxxing all over a muddy airport after dark, so I guess I can see why they closed up at the normal time even though there were planes stacked up to get in.

So that leaves communication with the stacked up planes. It sounds like that has improved over previous years. Since I'm in law enforcement, I've taken part in emergency responce situations. Communication has always been a problem. Sometimes there isn't enough, sometimes there is too much, but there is almost always something dissiminated that isn't accurate.

My last thought on this is that the rag USA Today has already done an anti-GA article about OSH this year. I hope the airport closing and related hazards, or even basic pilot error doesn't cause a mid-air over the city to give those pricks any more ammo to hit us with this time next year.

hhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-27-airshow27_ST_N.htm

 

[roncachamp]

I do think the local area makes enough money off this event to maybe lease an extra truck and crew to do the stand-by duties so as to free up the regular emergency response crew.

Who leases trucks and crews?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Am I recalling correctly or do many of the controllers volunteer to work OSH? Don't know why they left right at eight, but it may be an airspace issue; police and city issue; folks having to be elsewhere or whatever. Operating beyond 8:00 may not have been a controller discretionary issue.

I'm pretty sure the 8 PM cutoff is a local politics/neighbors issue, as well as a safety issue - It is NOT light at 9 here this time of year - I think the idea is that there will be no props turning when it's dark, and that's a smart one. People can go elsewhere. However, they do need to be provided information that's as correct and complete as possible to make the right decision.

I doubt very much that the factory keeps a fleet of finished trucks sitting around. I think they are made to order, and are shipped immediately on completion.

FWIW, I did see a fire truck display from a short distance away. The truck was painted with the name of one of the Chicago 'burbs, I can't remember which. I don't think it was an Oshkosh truck though, I think it was a Pierce truck (another emergency vehicle company that's in Appleton). It'd be nice if they could have that display truck working on a "just in case" basis.

Further, I defy anyone to come up with the odds of having two serious crashes on Wittman Field simultaneously, where the second accident occurs before the first one is properly dealt with. I suspect that your odds of winning the lottery are significantly greater than of this happening, but we'll have to ask an actuary to chime in here.

I bet it's WAY better than the lottery. There's usually a handful of incidents at OSH each year - Let's say 3.5 on average, or one every other day, and it seems that it closes at least a runway for 3 hours, for a total of 10.5 hours of closure time. The field only operates for about 9 hours a day or 63 hours for the week, so we're talking about the field being closed roughly 1/6th of the time already. I don't think it's improbable at all for there to be two incidents within 3 hours of each other.

However, even if you allow these people to dictate your reality, there is little or no extra cost IF you can obtain volunteer airport fire fighters from, oh, say, Mitchell Field in Milwaukee, or the Air National Guard in Madison. I suspect that would take a few phone calls, and a few free passes.

And the closure of their airport, if you want their equipment too. The WI ANG handles all of the ARFF duties at KMSN. Not sure about KMKE.

Would it be unacceptable for the Madison ANG squadron to stand down for the week of OSH?

Yes, because they need to be there to intercept the wayward Canadian C172's. (It was our guys that intercepted the 172 out of Thunder Bay and followed him to MO.)

Why do you assume the WI ANG has the responsibility for CFR at MSN?

I don't think he was assuming that - I think he was assuming the opposite. However, the WI ANG does do the CFR at MSN.

 

[Trapper John]

I would respectfully submit that this attitude will be the death of Airventure. Thankfully, few adhere to it.

Yes, accidents happen. Yes, people die every year on their way to/from the show. But to cavalierly dismiss this as "the Darwinian Solution" rather than trying to identify and address choke-points in the chain of events leading to these accidents is irresponsible.

But the "choke point" as you call it is created entirely from show-goers' self-induced get-there-itis.

I've identified a choke-point. Let's see if we can fix it, rather than simply dismissing its existence as some sort of a test of airmanship.

In order to fix something, you need to identify what the problem is, and you haven't done that. How many people were inconvenienced by the closing of the airport? How many near-misses were there among the group that decided to stay in the various holds? How many people were actually in the holds? What is the cost of adding additional fire/rescue capability? What's the benefit/cost ratio?

In other words, try putting some numbers to the alleged issue, rather than arm-waving and pronouncing there's a problem.

 

[dmccormack]

FWIW, I did see a fire truck display from a short distance away. The truck was painted with the name of one of the Chicago 'burbs, I can't remember which. I don't think it was an Oshkosh truck though, I think it was a Pierce truck (another emergency vehicle company that's in Appleton). It'd be nice if they could have that display truck working on a "just in case" basis.

Emergency response requires trained, prepared, and ready crews and equipment.

Vehicles on display lack all three characteristics.

(There's a reason why static display aircraft in the old days were always the maintenance messes)

 

[roncachamp]

I don't think he was assuming that - I think he was assuming the opposite.

Odd, then, that he'd assume the WI ANG had any CFR capability at MSN.

However, the WI ANG does do the CFR at MSN.

And they're sure not going to shut down KMSN during AirVenture so that CFR equipment and personnel isn't available.

 

[bdlarkin]

My last thought on this is that the rag USA Today has already done an anti-GA article about OSH this year. I hope the airport closing and related hazards, or even basic pilot error doesn't cause a mid-air over the city to give those pricks any more ammo to hit us with this time next year.

hhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-27-airshow27_ST_N.htm

Wow! What a hit piece!

This part about the controllers, while factually accurate, is just asinine. It makes it sound like they are competing to kill us all in some giant game of chicken. It's amazing I made it in there alive!

FAA controllers compete for temporary assignments to work the show, where the thicket of traffic is a test of their skills. Planes line up for landing miles away, and pilots must follow the staccato bursts of instructions from controllers. Radio channels are so overburdened that pilots must remain silent, wagging their wings instead to acknowledge instructions.

As to the OP point. I think a lot of the issue is communication. Instead of stating "airport closed". Something on the order of: "Jet crashed on 18R, holding patterns (Fisk/Ripon) in use. Airport closed until further notice." Put that out over the ATIS, so planes entering the arrival area will think twice about entering the area and divert earlier.

This would also reduce the number of inquiries along the lines of "is the airport closed for my '37 WACO? What about my reservation at Basler for my Phenom jet?". Especially this year, with the parking situations basically closing the airport to specific types.

 

[jtheune]

I flew in on Monday with a res at Orion and had to question them over the air because the ATIS was down and it was not clear if I could come in as they ( controllers ) were saying the airport was closed to GA camping traffic. This year had many challenges that were not part of the normal drill. I do agree with the idea that more information is needed so PICs can make good decisions as they approach the airport.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Which is precisely why Oshkosh isn't a family vacation destination for many "aviation" families.

GA is not train service -- if you *must* be somewhere -- drive.

If you as PIC cannot address pressures such as extra hotel nights, etc, etc , you have no business flying with the family.

Agreed. But that doesn't change the scenario.

And actually this year, even DRIVING didn't guarantee that you would get into OSH. My A&P had his 5th wheel trailer (and truck) stuck up to the axles in Camp Scholler. He had to be pulled out with a tractor.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I also thought of the fact that you don't want people trying to find that perfect camping spot by taxxing all over a muddy airport after dark, so I guess I can see why they closed up at the normal time even though there were planes stacked up to get in.

I didn't mean to imply that they should keep the field open after dark. However, 30 extra minutes (past the 8 o'clock closing time) would have been golden to all those guys in the air, and would have left 30 minutes until dark.

My last thought on this is that the rag USA Today has already done an anti-GA article about OSH this year. I hope the airport closing and related hazards, or even basic pilot error doesn't cause a mid-air over the city to give those pricks any more ammo to hit us with this time next year.

hhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-07-27-airshow27_ST_N.htm

Nice article. Let's quote the poor widow, blasting OSH as "unsafe". Idiots.

 

[Jay Honeck]

But the "choke point" as you call it is created entirely from show-goers' self-induced get-there-itis.

In order to fix something, you need to identify what the problem is, and you haven't done that. How many people were inconvenienced by the closing of the airport? How many near-misses were there among the group that decided to stay in the various holds? How many people were actually in the holds? What is the cost of adding additional fire/rescue capability? What's the benefit/cost ratio?

In other words, try putting some numbers to the alleged issue, rather than arm-waving and pronouncing there's a problem.

As I've stated, I was on the ground sipping beers after the Roush crash this year, so I am in no position to put numbers on this year's problem. I *was* in the air, and in the hold(s) the LAST time this exact scenario occurred, however, just a few years ago, and nothing has changed since then WRT closing the airport after every crash.

I've identified a chokepoint in the procedure. To dismiss this as "due to 'get-there-itis'" is the same as making the problem some sort of test of airmanship. Given that we all know that there are pilots of wildly varying skill levels at OSH, I don't think this is appropriate, and we should be trying to fix -- rather than dismiss -- the problem.

 

[PilotAlan]

And they're sure not going to shut down KMSN during AirVenture so that CFR equipment and personnel isn't available.

You've said that multiple times, but apparently don't read what anyone else posts. Odd, then, that there WAS a WI ANG CFR truck and crew at KOSH all week.
So, obviously, there IS a method and mechanism to make that happen, despite your multiple, definitive pronouncements to the contrary.

 

[SCCutler]

But the "choke point" as you call it is created entirely from show-goers' self-induced get-there-itis.

In order to fix something, you need to identify what the problem is, and you haven't done that. How many people were inconvenienced by the closing of the airport? How many near-misses were there among the group that decided to stay in the various holds? How many people were actually in the holds? What is the cost of adding additional fire/rescue capability? What's the benefit/cost ratio?

In other words, try putting some numbers to the alleged issue, rather than arm-waving and pronouncing there's a problem.

That's just a bunch of ugly there.

 

[roncachamp]

You've said that multiple times, but apparently don't read what anyone else posts.

I'm pretty sure I said that just the one time.

Odd, then, that there WAS a WI ANG CFR truck and crew at KOSH all week. So, obviously, there IS a method and mechanism to make that happen, despite your multiple, definitive pronouncements to the contrary.

Well, I don't know that there was a WI ANG CFR truck and crew at KOSH all week, but I do know they don't shut down KMSN during AirVenture.

 

[bdlarkin]

And actually this year, even DRIVING didn't guarantee that you would get into OSH. My A&P had his 5th wheel trailer (and truck) stuck up to the axles in Camp Scholler. He had to be pulled out with a tractor.

Guess your annual will be more expensive this year.... :wink2: