Thoughts on a Cherokee 140 as a learner & 1st plane

Chesterspal said:
Can someone who owns the 140 do me a big favor?

I'll be getting my eyes checked next week for new glasses. I have a pair made specifically for computer use. All I need is to tell the doc the distance and he sets a card up and we get the eyes/lenses calibrated.

I can do the same for the 140 but I need to know the distance from the pilots eyes to the instrument panel. I'm 5' 10" if that helps with setting the seat.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I'll be flying on Monday (my plane's about 40 minutes from my house), and will be happy to take measurements then for you if you haven't heard back prior. I wear progressive lenses (have been for maybe the last eight years?), and have never had an issue in the cockpit seeing instruments and the views outside the cockpit.. and those outside views are VERY important. If I understand you correctly, you're considering getting a set of single-focal-length glasses made up for flying, and I'd caution against that. In addition to looking out the window and focusing on the panel, there'll most likely be times when you may want to be able to see something closer than the panel, too... backup EFB or docs on your phone? Who knows. If I misunderstood, my apologies.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'm wondering when you saw it. Was it Jeff's picture he posted a year or two ago?

If you liked it then, you should see it now. ;)
Click to expand...

Pics? Still wrestling with what I want to do with mine..
 
Chesterspal said:
So, things are progressing nicely.

I found a very decent CFI who will gladly train me in the plane I own. In fact, he has some 700 hours in the Cherokee from when he lived in Florida. Has a full time job in aviation but has four days off per week that he uses to take on students. His CFI rates are half the going rate of the local flight schools, so that's great, as well. Having no overhead makes a big difference. We seem to be on the same page with most of what I was proposing so that's a plus. Not looking for a guy who will fight me every step of the way.

Still plane searching. Will hire a firm that specializes in pre-buy inspections and have their experts check the plane out prior to my purchase. They also help with the negotiations.

Finally, I have found a pilot who will ferry the plane to me for free. I only need to pay for his travel to the plane and back home. Guess he does it for the hours, which seems fair.

Enjoying this process and looking forward to the final outcome... a nice little plane and my PLL.
Click to expand...

Just remember, as a student, your insurance is going to be very expensive, in the $nnnn range until you take your checkride and get a few tens of hours under your belt. You will also want to put the CFI on the insurance as a named insurer - for both of your protection.
 
murphey said:
Just remember, as a student, your insurance is going to be very expensive, in the $nnnn range until you take your checkride and get a few tens of hours under your belt. You will also want to put the CFI on the insurance as a named insurer - for both of your protection.
Click to expand...

The CFI should be OK under an "open pilot" clause but check with the insurer.
 
alfadog said:
Talking about paint?
Click to expand...
Maybe eventually, but right now the priority list is ADSB-out compliance (ordered and installation pending), slightly leaking master brake cylinders, interior, and then, if there's any money and patience left over, making the outside look nice. That's kind of far down the list. Mostly, I want to @#$@#$ FLY!
 
MuseChaser said:
Maybe eventually, but right now the priority list is ADSB-out compliance (ordered and installation pending), slightly leaking master brake cylinders, interior, and then, if there's any money and patience left over, making the outside look nice. That's kind of far down the list. Mostly, I want to @#$@#$ FLY!
Click to expand...

Ah. We were painting an Archer ourselves in one of our hangars and I took some pics of simple paint jobs on the field that I liked but the boss just shot some color on the wings and left it at that.
 
Chesterspal said:
...Finally, I have found a pilot who will ferry the plane to me for free. I only need to pay for his travel to the plane and back home. Guess he does it for the hours, which seems fair.

Enjoying this process and looking forward to the final outcome... a nice little plane and my PLL.
Click to expand...

If you are able, fly the plane on the ferry trip yourself (with an instructor of course). It's a tremendous learning experience if the trip is any distance. Your freelance instructor might be up for it.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'm wondering when you saw it. Was it Jeff's picture he posted a year or two ago?

If you liked it then, you should see it now. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm sure I've seen several pictures, Jeff's and some you posted more recently, iirc. That's one fine looking airplane you got there.
 
murphey said:
Just remember, as a student, your insurance is going to be very expensive, in the $nnnn range until you take your checkride and get a few tens of hours under your belt. You will also want to put the CFI on the insurance as a named insurer - for both of your protection.
Click to expand...

Mine was below 1k as a pre solo student
 
Tell me something about total time hours on a plane. Am I correct that a small plane's airframe is good for only 5,000 hours?
 
Chesterspal said:
Tell me something about total time hours on a plane. Am I correct that a small plane's airframe is good for only 5,000 hours?
Click to expand...

Many are in excess of that and airframes with 10,000+ hours are not that uncommon. When I was a kid (1960's) a car was generally regarded to be worn out at 100,000 miles. My view (and folks will be along to correct/argue this point shortly) is that figure is around 10,000 hours on airframes. Clearly corrosion, damage, and life limited components may change that. Grumman AA series wing spars are limited to (IIRC) 10,000 hours. Cirrus has a limit on the airframe hours (which has been steadily raised as we acquire more experience with the composite airframes).

There are C-47/DC-3 airframes with 40,0000+ hours.
John
 
Understood, but I'm talking about small planes such as the PA- series Pipers.
 
jsstevens said:
Grumman AA series wing spars are limited to (IIRC) 10,000 hours.
Click to expand...
As to the 4-seat AA-5 series, the spar assemblies are limited to 12,500 hours, and the wing shoulder bolts 7,250 hours. There are no service life limits on the two-seat AA-1 series. That doesn't mean the two-seaters are better built; it's just that certification standards were changed after the AA-1 series was certified in the late 1960s and before the AA-5 series came along in 1972. New types certified after 1972, beginning with the Commander 112/114, are subject to the new rules which include service life limits.

There are C-47/DC-3 airframes with 40,0000+ hours.
Click to expand...
There's an ex-Eastern Air Lines DC-3 (NC18121, s/n 1997), now based at Aurora, Oregon, that is believed to be the world's highest-airframe-time piston airplane. It has over 91,400 hours.
 
Chesterspal said:
Tell me something about total time hours on a plane. Am I correct that a small plane's airframe is good for only 5,000 hours?
Click to expand...
5,000 plus is not uncommon at all. 10k+ isn't uncommon and there are some 20k+ GA aircraft out there. Low total time on a 50 year old airframe can actually be worse than something with higher time. Low time often means that the aircraft flew very infrequently or not at all for years at a time. One of the worst things you can do to an airplane is just let it sit.

Just make sure you get a good prebuy and don't worry too much about total time.
 
I have a 1968 Cherokee 140 and it is a comfortable airplane for boring holes in the sky or 2-3 hour flights. It’s also a good plane to learn in. But… 100 kts is great if you are building time or sight-seeing—not so great if you actually want to go somewhere. If was buying a new plane I would not buy a 140 but step up to the 180 or a Warrior. The price difference is minimal and they are much more capable airplanes.

Even for a student pilot, insurance should be cheap—probably less than $1,000 for $25k hull value. If you have an instructor lined up, you want to have them listed on the policy as a named insured with no right of subrogation. It won’t cost any more and they are covered the same as you are.
 
JScarry said:
I have a 1968 Cherokee 140 and it is a comfortable airplane for boring holes in the sky or 2-3 hour flights. It’s also a good plane to learn in. But… 100 kts is great if you are building time or sight-seeing—not so great if you actually want to go somewhere. If was buying a new plane I would not buy a 140 but step up to the 180 or a Warrior. The price difference is minimal and they are much more capable airplanes.
Click to expand...
I have time in a Cherokee 180. It cruised at 105 KTAS. It's more capable in other ways than the 140, but the increased cruise performance is barely noticeable. I would make a choice between the 140 and 180 for reasons other than speed. :)
 
In my 67 140, I flight plan for 107kts on 8.5gph. Furthest non-stop flight was from OSH-M21 (410 miles). Took right at 4 hours and I still had 10 gallons usable fuel remaining. In turbulence the Cherokee shines over the high wing. Whereas in a Cessna having a filling dislodged is a possibility but the Cherokee will just wag its tail and wallow along. And its just about impossible to stall. You can have the yoke in your chest, stall light on, and it will just mush along. sinking like a stone. The Skyhawk will drop a wing (usually left) need a stomp on the rudder to keep the tail behind the nose. The Cherokee will slide down the glideslope like its on rails where in the Skyhawk, you tend to have more variations in pitch and heading. I have twice the Cessna hours than Cherokee, but I will take my 140 wonder over the Skyhawk and never look back
 
iamtheari said:
I have time in a Cherokee 180. It cruised at 105 KTAS. It's more capable in other ways than the 140, but the increased cruise performance is barely noticeable. I would make a choice between the 140 and 180 for reasons other than speed. :)
Click to expand...
Mileage does vary. I flew various Cherokee 180s of the 1968-70 vintage (short body, Hershey-bar wing). At lighter weights I usually saw around 120 KTAS, even without wheel fairings.
 
jsstevens said:
Many are in excess of that and airframes with 10,000+ hours are not that uncommon. When I was a kid (1960's) a car was generally regarded to be worn out at 100,000 miles. My view (and folks will be along to correct/argue this point shortly) is that figure is around 10,000 hours on airframes. Clearly corrosion, damage, and life limited components may change that. Grumman AA series wing spars are limited to (IIRC) 10,000 hours. Cirrus has a limit on the airframe hours (which has been steadily raised as we acquire more experience with the composite airframes).

There are C-47/DC-3 airframes with 40,0000+ hours.
John
Click to expand...
Don’t forget about the 50 yr old B-52s!
 
iamtheari said:
I have time in a Cherokee 180. It cruised at 105 KTAS. It's more capable in other ways than the 140, but the increased cruise performance is barely noticeable. I would make a choice between the 140 and 180 for reasons other than speed. :)
Click to expand...
Altitude.
 
Mooney Fan said:
In my 67 140, I flight plan for 107kts on 8.5gph. Furthest non-stop flight was from OSH-M21 (410 miles). Took right at 4 hours and I still had 10 gallons usable fuel remaining. In turbulence the Cherokee shines over the high wing. Whereas in a Cessna having a filling dislodged is a possibility but the Cherokee will just wag its tail and wallow along. And its just about impossible to stall. You can have the yoke in your chest, stall light on, and it will just mush along. sinking like a stone. The Skyhawk will drop a wing (usually left) need a stomp on the rudder to keep the tail behind the nose. The Cherokee will slide down the glideslope like its on rails where in the Skyhawk, you tend to have more variations in pitch and heading. I have twice the Cessna hours than Cherokee, but I will take my 140 wonder over the Skyhawk and never look back
Click to expand...
During my private checkride, I couldn’t get the cherokee 180 to stall. Repeated attempts. Finally the DE took the controls and managed the stall. Gave the controls back to me with the comment...” guess you won’t have many stalling problems...”
 
Pilawt said:
Mileage does vary. I flew various Cherokee 180s of the 1968-70 vintage (short body, Hershey-bar wing). At lighter weights I usually saw around 120 KTAS, even without wheel fairings.
Click to expand...
Same here. 1969 with a few improvements, such as the Hoerner wing tips
 
murphey said:
During my private checkride, I couldn’t get the cherokee 180 to stall. Repeated attempts. Finally the DE took the controls and managed the stall. Gave the controls back to me with the comment...” guess you won’t have many stalling problems...”
Click to expand...

I had the same issue except the DPE never took the controls. I just showed him the VSI which told us we were dropping like a rock.
 
MuseChaser said:
I liked and agreed with the rest of your post. This part, at least in my experience, is unrealistic. In my 150hp '65 PA28-140, 100 kts/115mph @ 8.5 gph seems to be real-world.
Click to expand...

Mine was poorly rigged and it would do 105 knots with no wheel pants at around 8gph. I don't think 107 is out of line for expectations.
 
MuseChaser said:
I liked and agreed with the rest of your post. This part, at least in my experience, is unrealistic. In my 150hp '65 PA28-140, 100 kts/115mph @ 8.5 gph seems to be real-world.
Click to expand...
Don't know what to tell you. You can look at my multiple flights on FA and see for yourself. Zero wind, 2450 RPM 2500' 107kts all day long
 
MuseChaser said:
I liked and agreed with the rest of your post. This part, at least in my experience, is unrealistic. In my 150hp '65 PA28-140, 100 kts/115mph @ 8.5 gph seems to be real-world.
Click to expand...
The '65 140 my Dad has will put put along Doing 105-110kts TAS at 6500' MSL and 2450 RPM all while putting 7.8 gph to the torch.
 
I’m with @GRG55 . Take some initial instruction in a rental, then get your CFI to ferry your plane home with you.

Great experience with real world flight planning, weather planning and in flight decision making.

I’m envious you have that opportunity. I hope you take it.
 
Last edited:
Chesterspal said:
Understood, but I'm talking about small planes such as the PA- series Pipers.
Click to expand...

We have twelve Cessna 172 trainers in our Club's 16-plane fleet. One has 14,000+ hours on it, a couple of others are over 10,000 hours and all but three are over 5000 hours. A typical 172 trainer in our fleet logs 900 to 1200 hours a year.
 
A cargo company I used to work at had Lances and Arrows with 14,000+ hours.
 
I have some more questions on the Piper 140...

Apparently, the windows do not open... so just how do you get fresh air moving through this plane?

Some low-wing planes of similar size and cost range have the wheels attached to the fuselage rather than to the wings like the 140. To me, this seems to make more sense as it puts less stress on the wings (that wing spar issue again) not having them take the hit on hard landings. Can anyone comment on this?
 
Chesterspal said:
I have some more questions on the Piper 140...

Apparently, the windows do not open... so just how do you get fresh air moving through this plane?

Some low-wing planes of similar size and cost range have the wheels attached to the fuselage rather than to the wings like the 140. To me, this seems to make more sense as it puts less stress on the wings (that wing spar issue again) not having them take the hit on hard landings. Can anyone comment on this?
Click to expand...
They're built tough. You have to abuse them pretty bad to damage the spar. That's why the proposed AD focuses on planes that have been abused, by the only objective measure available which is the number of 100-hour inspections required over the life of the plane (since PA-28 planes that require 100-hour inspections are almost universally full-time flight school planes).

There are fresh air vents near the feet of all four seating positions. Once you're moving, these blow a lot of fresh air.

There is a "storm window" in the pilot's window. You open this to yell "clear prop" before starting the engine. You can also open it while taxiing and stick your hand out to scoop in fresh air. Some planes have a flip-out plastic scoop that is mounted to the window that serves this purpose without sticking your hand out there. You can also unlatch the door while taxiing, which will bring in a good amount of fresh air. Doing so also forces you to learn checklist discipline and confirm that the door is closed and latched before takeoff, because forgetting that just one time will be a very memorable experience.
 
Chesterspal said:
Apparently, the windows do not open... so just how do you get fresh air moving through this plane?
Click to expand...
Depends on the year it was built.

Early 140s had vents at elbow level on both sides, taking air in through little openable vent doors on the outside of the cabin door and on the fuselage sides.

By 1968 or so, through the end of Cherokee 140 production, the air intakes were in the leading edges of the wing roots, feeding vents at ankle level. This provided decent ventilation at less of a drag penalty than with the side vent doors.

Beginning with the 1970 model year there were also optional airline-style overhead vents in the cabin ceiling, receiving air from an intake at the top leading edge of the vertical fin. Later models also had an optional fan to augment airflow in the overhead system.

And finally, starting in 1972 I believe (maybe '73) there an optional air conditioning system called Piper-Aire. It took up 60 pounds of useful load, degraded performance (the system was disabled when throttle was fully opened to permit full engine power when needed), and was notoriously unreliable. Many owners have taken the A/C out of their airplanes to save weight.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I know. I thought about telling the company that the knob on the crank they sent me is white instead of black. Even in the description it states: black. But I don't care, as long as it has a knob that isn't worn out, I'm happy.
Click to expand...
im sure you got an 8130 with that part right? :)
 
Is there a standard form used to purchase a used plane? Something that states each others responsibilities?

Also, if I find a plane I like, how to I go about holding it until I can get it inspected, etc. Is there a certain deposit amount and is it refundable should the deal fall through?

Thanks!
 
Chesterspal said:
Is there a standard form used to purchase a used plane? Something that states each others responsibilities?

Also, if I find a plane I like, how to I go about holding it until I can get it inspected, etc. Is there a certain deposit amount and is it refundable should the deal fall through?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

There are whole books on that subject...

Also, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=buying+first+airplane
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top