This is why we can't have nice things...

Wonder why the NTSB report wasn't admissible in court?
 
I remember that accident. The article lists '15% overweight'? I do recall he was overweight by a good amount, which was the reason he didn't make it far after taking off.

Just saying, experimenting or using the 'Alaskan exclusion' or whatever may be one thing if solo, but with passengers inboard it isn't the best time for that. No I've never been an AK bush pilot, just more along the common sense line.
 
Very sad deal. One of the saddest parts to me is the family suing the father/husband, I know it's just legal maneuvering, but still.
 
Businesses/manufacturers that settle baseless lawsuits get what they deserve. Unfortunately other responsible businesses then get ground up by the legal system due to the precedents set by the settlers. And it becomes an endless circle.
And in the real world vigorously defending yourself right to the end (even if you lose the first one) turns out to be less expensive in the long run than settling. Yeah, it costs you more for that first case but that blood-in-the-street reputation around the courthouse of being a junkyard dog who will fight to the end causers the contingency fee fraternity to lose interest in taking cases against you.
 
49 U.S.C. § 1154(b)
(b) Reports.—No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title49/html/USCODE-2011-title49.htm

This makes sense to me. You need (and want) the boards to be able to consider only the facts, and not be thinking politically, or of fallout from reports right?
 
And in the real world vigorously defending yourself right to the end (even if you lose the first one) turns out to be less expensive in the long run than settling.

whoa, do we know that the case? I would think if it were true, everyone would vigorously defend.
Also, I suspect many companies do not have 'many lawsuits' ie a "long run", they have one - and are faced with the decision of a $XX settlement, or a potential $XXXXXX trial judgment.
 
Businesses/manufacturers that settle baseless lawsuits get what they deserve. Unfortunately other responsible businesses then get ground up by the legal system due to the precedents set by the settlers. And it becomes an endless circle.
And in the real world vigorously defending yourself right to the end (even if you lose the first one) turns out to be less expensive in the long run than settling. Yeah, it costs you more for that first case but that blood-in-the-street reputation around the courthouse of being a junkyard dog who will fight to the end causers the contingency fee fraternity to lose interest in taking cases against you.

The liability insurance carrier may make the decision to settle.
 
I remember that accident. The article lists '15% overweight'? I do recall he was overweight by a good amount, which was the reason he didn't make it far after taking off.

Just saying, experimenting or using the 'Alaskan exclusion' or whatever may be one thing if solo, but with passengers inboard it isn't the best time for that. No I've never been an AK bush pilot, just more along the common sense line.
It mentioned 650lbs over weight, that seems a little more than 15%. The only 15% number I recall was what the FBOs allegedly taught him to overload a plane to.
 
Can't think of much worse than when people try and profit off a family member's death by blaming innocent parties. Really disgusting.
 
Personal responsibility doesnt exist anymore. Thats one reason I like the skydiving community (not the one-timers, the hardcore guys). Skydivers never sue one another. I broke my back 6 years ago from a hard opening. I would never be able to prove it, but my suspicion is a packing error. Guess who got sued? NOBODY! Never even considered it.

If you think loading your family in a plane and then loading it 650 lbs overweight is acceptable, you may have gotten what you deserve.
 
So much for the "if you can get the doors closed it will fly" theory.
 
So much for the "if you can get the doors closed it will fly" theory.
He did get it airborne. For me one lesson is that you can get an airplane airborne that cannot safely finish the flight. Also, complacency, and "getting away" with an illegal or unsafe flight is truly a form of learning to endanger your passengers.

I'm a bit angry because he never told me it was an engine problem, nor did he claim so. When we were talking he told me that the flaps were the problem, something along the lines that the flaps fully retracted when he was only trying to partially retract them. I had already read the prelim NTSB report and asked him some questions and he claimed that he didn't have all of that stuff on board and that the NTSB had an agenda against him. Never once did he admit to me that he might have just screwed up. I feel really bad for his wife and little boy and if he has no personal responsibility it might be best for them to be on the other side.

So sad.
 
Businesses/manufacturers that settle baseless lawsuits get what they deserve. Unfortunately other responsible businesses then get ground up by the legal system due to the precedents set by the settlers. And it becomes an endless circle.
And in the real world vigorously defending yourself right to the end (even if you lose the first one) turns out to be less expensive in the long run than settling. Yeah, it costs you more for that first case but that blood-in-the-street reputation around the courthouse of being a junkyard dog who will fight to the end causers the contingency fee fraternity to lose interest in taking cases against you.

The reason corporations settle is quite simple and logical. As long as it is a negotiated settlement they have control over the outcome. Once a dispute goes in front of a judge or a jury it doesn't matter how "baseless" one thinks it is, or how good a case one may think one has going into the courtroom, the outcome is now in their hands and there is always the risk of a highly negative result. In my entire (non-aviation) business career I have always maintained it is better to keep negotiating to reach a settlement, even one reached on the courthouse steps is better than walking through that door.

Just as an aside, I have a good friend who runs an aircraft maintenance business. Because of one clearly frivolous lawsuit that he ended up losing in front of a judge, related to an airplane that he and his firm never actually did any maintenance on, he no longer works on private airplanes other than his own. He is so adamant about this he won't even discuss anything to do with my plane when we get together over a beer. All his clients are now corporations taht use their airplanes to fly staff, not just the owner.
 
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So much for the "if you can get the doors closed it will fly" theory.

Looks like he was was out of balance...

I'm sure there are people that don't want to post how overweight they have flown but 650lbs over is extreme.
 
I was confused by the article. The verdict went against the pilot but the plaintiff was the wife. How does that work? Did they mean ex-wife?
 
I was confused by the article. The verdict went against the pilot but the plaintiff was the wife. How does that work? Did they mean ex-wife?
It is odd. Most states have guest statutes that prohibit negligence claims against spouses or parents for negligently operating a vehicle. I know my state has one specific to aircraft, and suspect most states have similar statutes. I suspect that the pilot's liability policy, if any, would exclude coverage for 3rd party negligence claims for family members, but I wouldn't know for certain without reading the policy.
 
Personal responsibility doesnt exist anymore. Thats one reason I like the skydiving community (not the one-timers, the hardcore guys). Skydivers never sue one another. I broke my back 6 years ago from a hard opening. I would never be able to prove it, but my suspicion is a packing error. Guess who got sued? NOBODY! Never even considered it.

If you think loading your family in a plane and then loading it 650 lbs overweight is acceptable, you may have gotten what you deserve.

This too, will go away eventually.

There was a local club that had volunteers working at a work party (not aviation or skydiving related) on a commercial location. Someone tripped and fell carrying something heavy they never should have lifted alone, on a small set of stairs (three steps) and broke their ankle.

They told the club they'd go to the hospital and get patched up and never sue. Not the club's fault.

Their insurance company demanded full details of the accident (location, activity, etc) before they would pay the medical claim. Person was honest and didn't lie, since they didn't want their claim to go unpaid for any clauses about lying to the insurer.

Insurer then spent plenty of time and money on lawyers and their administrative staff to find out who the club was, who the commercial site owner was, and involve all of them in a lengthy legal battle as well as forced the commercial sites to demand the non-profit clubs at their facilities now carry expensive liability insurance including a minimum medical claim capability, even though this type of work on site is at most, an annual thing, the work also includes clean up of the commercial location and the clubs do this for free, and has always been a symbiotic relationship benefitting all.

It almost got the commercial site owner's lawyers to outright ban all such club activities on these locations owned nationwide.

The only people who's lives were made better by the event were the lawyers on all sides. The clubs all bought the insurance and raised club dues. The commercial sites instituted heavy insurance requirements as well as nearly doubled their pieces for non-profits using their facilities to cover their additional insurance costs they also purchased. The guy's original underwriter ended up paying for his mistake as expected but also paid a phalanx of lawyers to do all of this work, so my assumption is they raised rates to their customers too, and the clubs decided on their own to stop doing volunteer work for the site owners to lower the overall risk to volunteers.

Lawyers have a way of destroying everything they touch, when used in this fashion. No offense to our lawyer friends here on the board, but it's my experience thus far. Absolutely nothing good came of the entire thing and a lot of people thought the process would mean the true end of the non-profit clubs involved. Volunteers who sit on the Boards of these organizations are often hanging their assets WAY out on a shaky limb when a volunteer gets hurt, even if it was the volunteer's fault and they admit it.

It's not the costs of covering the volunteers' medical expenses, since they all technically have medical coverage these days, or they're being fined by their own government for not carrying said coverage. It's about paying all the lawyers and staff at both the non-profits and the commercial site operator, for the "process".

Which ultimately led up to the same underwriter the accident started with, paying up. In the end it costs the insurer nothing, since they'll just raise rates to cover all the lawyer's time they allowed. And that was already "baked in" anyway. Their lawyers are salaried and/or on retainer. They probably have a "use them, we're paying them anyway" mentality toward these things.
 
Cheap kills. What a sad case.
 
Personal responsibility doesnt exist anymore. Thats one reason I like the skydiving community (not the one-timers, the hardcore guys). Skydivers never sue one another. I broke my back 6 years ago from a hard opening. I would never be able to prove it, but my suspicion is a packing error. Guess who got sued? NOBODY! Never even considered it.

If you think loading your family in a plane and then loading it 650 lbs overweight is acceptable, you may have gotten what you deserve.

This!

Not once have I seen someone play the I'm going to sue you card.

You buy a can of peaches and it turns out they were made with poision and your kid dies from eating them, yeah take the peach Co to the cleaners.

The above scenarios, especially when you operate something outside of it's design parameters, chit goes sideways, tuff cookies and "now what did you learn"


...When we were talking he told me that the flaps were the problem, something along the lines that the flaps fully retracted when he was only trying to partially retract them. ...

In a 185?
 
This too, will go away eventually.

There was a local club that had volunteers working at a work party (not aviation or skydiving related) on a commercial location. Someone tripped and fell carrying something heavy they never should have lifted alone, on a small set of stairs (three steps) and broke their ankle.

They told the club they'd go to the hospital and get patched up and never sue. Not the club's fault.

Their insurance company demanded full details of the accident (location, activity, etc) before they would pay the medical claim. Person was honest and didn't lie, since they didn't want their claim to go unpaid for any clauses about lying to the insurer.

Insurer then spent plenty of time and money on lawyers and their administrative staff to find out who the club was, who the commercial site owner was, and involve all of them in a lengthy legal battle as well as forced the commercial sites to demand the non-profit clubs at their facilities now carry expensive liability insurance including a minimum medical claim capability, even though this type of work on site is at most, an annual thing, the work also includes clean up of the commercial location and the clubs do this for free, and has always been a symbiotic relationship benefitting all.

It almost got the commercial site owner's lawyers to outright ban all such club activities on these locations owned nationwide.

The only people who's lives were made better by the event were the lawyers on all sides. The clubs all bought the insurance and raised club dues. The commercial sites instituted heavy insurance requirements as well as nearly doubled their pieces for non-profits using their facilities to cover their additional insurance costs they also purchased. The guy's original underwriter ended up paying for his mistake as expected but also paid a phalanx of lawyers to do all of this work, so my assumption is they raised rates to their customers too, and the clubs decided on their own to stop doing volunteer work for the site owners to lower the overall risk to volunteers.

Lawyers have a way of destroying everything they touch, when used in this fashion. No offense to our lawyer friends here on the board, but it's my experience thus far. Absolutely nothing good came of the entire thing and a lot of people thought the process would mean the true end of the non-profit clubs involved. Volunteers who sit on the Boards of these organizations are often hanging their assets WAY out on a shaky limb when a volunteer gets hurt, even if it was the volunteer's fault and they admit it.

It's not the costs of covering the volunteers' medical expenses, since they all technically have medical coverage these days, or they're being fined by their own government for not carrying said coverage. It's about paying all the lawyers and staff at both the non-profits and the commercial site operator, for the "process".

Which ultimately led up to the same underwriter the accident started with, paying up. In the end it costs the insurer nothing, since they'll just raise rates to cover all the lawyer's time they allowed. And that was already "baked in" anyway. Their lawyers are salaried and/or on retainer. They probably have a "use them, we're paying them anyway" mentality toward these things.
From your description, it sounds like the insurance companies are driving this, not the lawyers they hire.
 
From your description, it sounds like the insurance companies are driving this, not the lawyers they hire.

And...? (Not sure your point.)

Lawyers create questionnaire form, convinced the company they can save them money, send it to all injured patients...

Patient answers and says he screwed up and broke his own ankle...

Lawyers threaten to sue everyone in sight anyway...

Someone said in this thread that, they like skydivers because they never sue anyone, and I was just relating how they'll end up watching everyone get sued every time there's an accident, and it won't matter if they did not choose to sue.

As soon as an insurance company is involved, the legal action will happen nowadays. You can't stop it.
 
It was a 206.

That's even worse, I could kinda sorta see maybe someone screwing up with the Johnson bar flaps, after all they are as fast or as slow as you make them, but the electric selector on a 206, nice slow preselects, nope
 
I was confused by the article. The verdict went against the pilot but the plaintiff was the wife. How does that work? Did they mean ex-wife?

That seems to be the result of a counter-claim/cross-claim of some sort. The articles mention that her claim was limited in scope. Those odd setups are usually the result of insurers in the background (e.g. different health insurance companies between husband and wife).
 
Several years ago my oldest son bought a tire plugging kit at the local K-Mart (since gone). He decided to plug his leaking tire in the parking lot. Since he'd never done it before, he thought he needed to trim off the excess. He used his own pocket knife and trimmed the stuff. He also cut his thumb and needed stitches. He was 19 and living at home at the time so it was on my medical coverage from work (Blue Cross-Blue Shield at the time). Insurance company called me to ask questions about who owned the parking lot, were they or the store in any way responsible for the injury, etc. I told them I didn't know if K-Mart owned the lot or leased the property. I also told them (multiple times because they kept asking) that he was solely responsible for the injury. It was exceedingly clear that the insurance company was looking for any pretext to hold the store/property owner responsible for the costs...

John
 
Several years ago my oldest son bought a tire plugging kit at the local K-Mart (since gone). He decided to plug his leaking tire in the parking lot. Since he'd never done it before, he thought he needed to trim off the excess. He used his own pocket knife and trimmed the stuff. He also cut his thumb and needed stitches. He was 19 and living at home at the time so it was on my medical coverage from work (Blue Cross-Blue Shield at the time). Insurance company called me to ask questions about who owned the parking lot, were they or the store in any way responsible for the injury, etc. I told them I didn't know if K-Mart owned the lot or leased the property. I also told them (multiple times because they kept asking) that he was solely responsible for the injury. It was exceedingly clear that the insurance company was looking for any pretext to hold the store/property owner responsible for the costs...

John
A lot of businesses carry med-pay which covers a limited amount of medical bills (not pain and suffering, etc.) for injuries sustained on the premises regardless of fault. So, completely ok to inquire about that, even if it's not an at fault situation.
 
Several years ago my oldest son bought a tire plugging kit at the local K-Mart (since gone). He decided to plug his leaking tire in the parking lot. Since he'd never done it before, he thought he needed to trim off the excess. He used his own pocket knife and trimmed the stuff. He also cut his thumb and needed stitches. He was 19 and living at home at the time so it was on my medical coverage from work (Blue Cross-Blue Shield at the time). Insurance company called me to ask questions about who owned the parking lot, were they or the store in any way responsible for the injury, etc. I told them I didn't know if K-Mart owned the lot or leased the property. I also told them (multiple times because they kept asking) that he was solely responsible for the injury. It was exceedingly clear that the insurance company was looking for any pretext to hold the store/property owner responsible for the costs...

John

The only reason they let this go was that it only involved a $500 ER claim, not $3mil and counting like the subject case.
 
A lot of businesses carry med-pay which covers a limited amount of medical bills (not pain and suffering, etc.) for injuries sustained on the premises regardless of fault. So, completely ok to inquire about that, even if it's not an at fault situation.
The availability of insurance does not affect whether someone owes any duty of care or is in any other way responsible for the damage. Someone cutting their own hand in no way or form related to the underlying piece of dirt, such a subrogation action is clearly frivolous.
 
The availability of insurance does not affect whether someone owes any duty of care or is in any other way responsible for the damage. Someone cutting their own hand in no way or form related to the underlying piece of dirt, such a subrogation action is clearly frivolous.

That was my position. How is K-Mart or the property (I've since learned it is leased property, although I still don't know the company name...) in any way at all culpable?

John
 
That was my position. How is K-Mart or the property (I've since learned it is leased property, although I still don't know the company name...) in any way at all culpable?

John

This is America. Someone (else) is at fault.
 
That was my position. How is K-Mart or the property (I've since learned it is leased property, although I still don't know the company name...) in any way at all culpable?

They may be culpable if they have potholes deep enough for your car to bottom out or if their storm drain caves in. But a kid cutting himself in the hand on their parking lot nfw.
 
The availability of insurance does not affect whether someone owes any duty of care or is in any other way responsible for the damage. Someone cutting their own hand in no way or form related to the underlying piece of dirt, such a subrogation action is clearly frivolous.

It's not a subrogation action that I am talking about, and it has nothing to do with fault. It is a matter of whether the property insurance provides the med-pay benefit. The two carriers (yours and the property) may be co-insurers for this same loss and because both may have contractually agreed to cover the loss both may each owe a portion of the claim.
 
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That was my position. How is K-Mart or the property (I've since learned it is leased property, although I still don't know the company name...) in any way at all culpable?

John

It's not about the property owner's culpability. If there is med pay, it's the direct obligation of the insurance carrier, and (as I said above) has nothing to do with the fault of the property owner. Your auto policy may have med pay that would pay for medical bills for people in your car, even if you aren't the one liable. It's the same type of coverage. Businesses very often pay a premium for this med pay benefit that covers injuries that occur on their property, regardless of their own fault. Not cooperating with your health insurer by giving them the information that they ask for is a good way to void your own coverage.
 
It's not about the property owner's culpability. If there is med pay, it's the direct obligation of the insurance carrier, and (as I said above) has nothing to do with the fault of the property owner. Your auto policy may have med pay that would pay for medical bills for people in your car, even if you aren't the one liable. It's the same type of coverage. Businesses very often pay a premium for this med pay benefit that covers injuries that occur on their property, regardless of their own fault. Not cooperating with your health insurer by giving them the information that they ask for is a good way to void your own coverage.

I answered all their questions with all the information I had. I don't see how that's "Not cooperating". And they were the ones asking about culpability of the property owner/ I didn't bring it up. I wouldn't have thought to much about it except they kept asking even after I'd answered the question.

John
 
Well, reading many of the posts on POA has caused me great emotional and psychological distress. I'm suing the lot of you.
 
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