Third sleeping controller triggers action

[John Baker]

There was a thing in this mornings paper that said government researchers and other sleep deprivation scientists are pretty much unanimous that people who work the ten pm to six am shift perform considerably better if they are allowed a sleep break (nap) during their shifts.

It went on to say that many foreign nations actually provide a nap room, with cots, for their air traffic controllers.

Our government flat out refuses this advise from their own researchers, and refuses to allow nap breaks during any controllers shift. They feel that no one should be allowed to sleep during working hours, or be paid to sleep.

The one sentence that stood out for me was "Politics are of a much greater concern to the government than public safety" or something close to that. It was in this mornings San Diego UT 04/18/11 if you want to read for yourself.

John

 

[kevin7500]

There was a thing in this mornings paper that said government researchers and other sleep deprivation scientists are pretty much unanimous that people who work the ten pm to six am shift perform considerably better if they are allowed a sleep break (nap) during their shifts.

John

I am pretty sure that the same thing can be proven for any shift in any industry. The goal shouldn't be to cater to the sleep deprived by promoting nap time, rather prevent employees from becoming sleep deprived in the first place. Switching shifts every few weeks/months doesn't benefit anyone. Requiring a detrimental schedule can only happen within a government controlled entity.

 

[elmetal]

Noooooooooooooooo!!!!

I give em a quick and dirty on the three major parts of ATC. Tower, TRACON, and ARTCC. Not a lot of detail, just the basics. Sometimes it gets them even more interested.

I tried with a few people to just separate artcc and towers and they got instantly bored and said all around the same stuff "But they sit in rooms and control planes right? same sh*t"

 

[EdFred]

I tried with a few people to just separate artcc and towers and they got instantly bored and said all around the same stuff "But they sit in rooms and control planes right? same sh*t"

That's when I say "no, pilots control the planes."

 

[elmetal]

I used to work in a 24/7 computer lab when I was in college. We had a 12:00-9:30a shift and I used to do it sometimes.

It was all fine and dandy because my schedule was the same every week, and I prepared myself for that shift, I even made sure I had no other shifts that day One time I had to work 12:30a-9:30a and had to come back in at 8p to work 8p-12a.

It was so hard to stay awake for only 4 hours after having taken 10.5 hours off just because of the mess up in the sleep schedule.

One time I worked 9:30a -4p and I had to be back for the 12a shift. That was only 8 hours off and if somebody didn't come talk to me every 15 minutes I was sleeping, no lie.

The point is: If I had less than 12-14 hours before or after my overnight shift, I would be completely useless and I'm sure lots of controllers are the same way.

Stop throwing people in all kinds of hours and abusing the regulation on time between shifts, and you won't have to hire 26 extra controllers to comfort each other as they sleep together overnight in a tower.


(Did I mention I always worked in pairs at the lab? Didn't help the sleeping, except the other guy might wake me up if he was busy and I needed to do something)


AKA, tower guys are going to take turns sleeping because the airports do not have enough to traffic to keep two controllers on, and sometimes not even one. (sleeping is alright with me, but the loonies that are changing the law think that'll make us turn into the USSR)

 

[elmetal]

That's when I say "no, pilots control the planes."

I would just get the usual
"they tell you what to do and where to go right?"

It's hard to say, well if you are under and IFR plan sorta, but

I just say: No, I do what I want, my airplane.

"Don't you have to tell them where you are going and what route you are taking before the flight so there are no crashes?"


I swear to god, serious questions I get asked by random people every day.


"You mean you have to look outside to not crash into other people?"

 

[EdFred]

I would just get the usual
"they tell you what to do and where to go right?"

It's hard to say, well if you are under and IFR plan sorta, but

I just say: No, I do what I want, my airplane.

"Don't you have to tell them where you are going and what route you are taking before the flight so there are no crashes?"


I swear to god, serious questions I get asked by random people every day.


"You mean you have to look outside to not crash into other people?"

That's when I ask them if they contact the DMV every time they drive to the mall, or to work. And I am a lot further away from other planes than they are cars. Then I bring up a 2 lane road, and how they are doing 60 and pass within 4 feet of a car going the other way. Even if I am going 3 times faster, I am never within 12 feet of another aircraft. They usually start to understand it after a short while.

If they don't then just bring up that there is 2.75 million miles of paved roads in the US, and around 230million cars, so about 10 cars per mile of road. And there are about 230,000 planes in the US, even if all those planes were in the air at once, and they occupy on average 3 miles of space above the surface, that's 11.4 million cubic miles, or 1 plane for every 50 cubic miles. Ignoring the "depth" of the air and assuming they all flew at the same altitude, that's still one plane per 16 square miles - the nearest plane would average 4 miles of spacing around it if they were all airborne at once. That usually puts the issue of crashing into each other to rest.

 

[Anthony]

Maybe they should merge ATC with the TSA and let them do each other's jobs.

 

[elmetal]

That's when I ask them if they contact the DMV every time they drive to the mall, or to work. And I am a lot further away from other planes than they are cars. Then I bring up a 2 lane road, and how they are doing 60 and pass within 4 feet of a car going the other way. Even if I am going 3 times faster, I am never within 12 feet of another aircraft. They usually start to understand it after a short while.

If they don't then just bring up that there is 2.75 million miles of paved roads in the US, and around 230million cars, so about 10 cars per mile of road. And there are about 230,000 planes in the US, even if all those planes were in the air at once, and they occupy on average 3 miles of space above the surface, that's 11.4 million cubic miles, or 1 plane for every 50 cubic miles. Ignoring the "depth" of the air and assuming they all flew at the same altitude, that's still one plane per 16 square miles - the nearest plane would average 4 miles of spacing around it if they were all airborne at once. That usually puts the issue of crashing into each other to rest.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But how many of those towers are at airports where Airliners land at? It's one thing to have a Regional airport tower close at Midnight to 6 or 7am, it's another thing to have a tower at an airport that services airline close down.

The difference being that no one outside of General Aviation and Executive Aviation really cares about the Regional airport, I mean most people think GA is about a bunch of rich boys and their toys anyways. However, they don't hold the same view when it comes to the airlines.

So while they'll accept Regional airport tower's closing down for the night, they may not accept the airline airport tower closing down for the night.

As Steven notes, there are MANY airline airports that close down their towers at night. My home field, KMSN, is a "Regional" airport (not Int'l) but it's class C and has airline service - And not just a little, but probably 6 different airlines, and Delta operates A319's and DC-9's (or MD's?) out of here.

If you fly in here at night, the ATIS frequency pipes through the ASOS followed by "Madison Tower hours of operation are from 6 AM to 11 PM local time. The common traffic advisory frequency is 119.3 and is monitored by crash fire and rescue. ILS 18 and 21 are selected, and pilot controlled lighting is available on 119.3. For IFR clearance on the ground, contact Chicago Center on 135.45..."

Yes, airliners land here after the tower is closed, both in the case of delayed flights and also the one regularly scheduled flight that lands here after 11 PM.

Elsewhere in the state, Green Bay (class C) closes at night, and all of the class D towers close at night, including ATW, CWA, and EAU which all have airline service (and I've taken off from CWA after the tower was closed, and a Northwest flight was on the way in).

Heck, there's airline service at KRHI but they don't have a tower at all.

Now, maybe people are simply ignorant about the towers closing, and maybe they're even ignorant of the fact that there is no tower at all at KRHI, but I haven't heard any squawking about it. People just want safety, and if they can be safe with the tower closed I think they'll accept it. Clearly, Babbitt and LaHood don't think so though, so they're adding controllers instead of subtracting them.

 

[elmetal]

the problem is people think towers control the airplanes. When you say a tower is closed, there is still center or approach who's more than likely got radar on the area and handles the approaches.

People don't understand how ATC works, so when they hear "tower closes, controller sleeping" They think it's chaos in the skies and innocent people will die.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

But how many of those towers are at airports where Airliners land at?

I know of at least one. At least it used to be. I flew a 737 into New Haven, CT many times after the tower closed. And I am pretty sure there is an American Eagle flight that arrives in Dubuque after ITS tower closes. That argument is sort of a non starter with me.

So while they'll accept Regional airport tower's closing down for the night, they may not accept the airline airport tower closing down for the night.

If there are no scheduled arrivals during the night hours, or only one or two, why would it matter? And why should the people inside the industry kowtow to the ignorant public on such matters?

 

[Trapper John]

And why should the people inside the industry kowtow to the ignorant public on such matters?

I'm not so sure the public really knows or cares about towers. They just want to find the cheapest fare online and get there somewhere close to the scheduled time.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I'm not so sure the public really knows or cares about towers. They just want to find the cheapest fare online and get there somewhere close to the scheduled time.

Then why does anyone mention the public?

 

[Trapper John]

Then why does anyone mention the public?

I don't know. Has public outcry/concern ever been part of the decision-making process when towers are added to an airport?

I know a fair number of non-aviation people that travel for work to smaller markets. I've never heard someone say, "I'll only take daytime flights to Madison because they close the tower at night."

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I tend to agree with you. My comments were directed more to Tarheel Pilot.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So, there's now been a fourth in Reno and a fifth in Miami.

At this rate, they're gonna have to go on a hiring spree and allow old farts like me to become controllers.

 

[Tarheel Pilot]

Why? Airliners land all over the world every day at airports without control towers.

Obviously more than you've assumed. Appleton, Green Bay, and Madison WI are all served by scheduled airlines and have control towers that close at night. And here's a real shocker for you; there are airports with scheduled airline service that have no control towers at all.

You and I know that, but the general public doesn't or doesn't care. However as soon as they hear that an airliner airport that closes it's tower at night, they'll be freaking out, demanding action in the name of "safety".

I do apologize, I was speaking from the POV of the general public, and should've clarified that.

 

[weilke]

So, there's now been a fourth in Reno and a fifth in Miami.

At this rate, they're gonna have to go on a hiring spree and allow old farts like me to become controllers.

The reason we are hearing about this now is that after the DCA incident headquarters required the managers to report all sleeping controllers rather than running it through the local HR or chewing-out process.

 

[gprellwitz]

I know of at least one. At least it used to be. I flew a 737 into New Haven, CT many times after the tower closed. And I am pretty sure there is an American Eagle flight that arrives in Dubuque after ITS tower closes. That argument is sort of a non starter with me.



If there are no scheduled arrivals during the night hours, or only one or two, why would it matter? And why should the people inside the industry kowtow to the ignorant public on such matters?

Traverse City is another one. I was departing one evening after the tower closed, and there was an airliner landing around the same time. I see a Delta flight landed tonight at about 11 PM, but the tower closed at 9 PM.

 

[EdFred]

Grand Rapids is an International Airport and tower closes before the last flights arrive as well. Also think they have a few depart before it opens also.

 

[Fearless Tower]

OMG - Now they're watching MOVIES!!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/04/19/air.traffic.controllers.movie/index.html?hpt=T2

This is starting to sound like a massive witchhunt in the works in the ATC world.

 

[roncachamp]

Grand Rapids is an International Airport and tower closes before the last flights arrive as well. Also think they have a few depart before it opens also.

Seventeen Michigan airports have scheduled passenger service. Seven have no control towers at all. Three have part-time control towers and five have part-time towers and part-time TRACONs. Only two have full-time towers and those two also have full-time TRACONs.

 

[EdFred]

Seventeen Michigan airports have scheduled passenger service. Seven have no control towers at all. Three have part-time control towers and five have part-time towers and part-time TRACONs. Only two have full-time towers and those two also have full-time TRACONs.

I believe that's Lansing and Detroit Metro. I know I've talked to Lansing controllers well past midnight.

 

[chucky]

I know of at least one. At least it used to be. I flew a 737 into New Haven, CT many times after the tower closed. And I am pretty sure there is an American Eagle flight that arrives in Dubuque after ITS tower closes. That argument is sort of a non starter with me.

We used to get 737s in here? We've downgraded to dash-8s. They still land after the tower closes, though.

 

[Fearless Tower]

It does suck though when the tower closes and you need RVR for the approach.

 

[roncachamp]

I believe that's Lansing and Detroit Metro. I know I've talked to Lansing controllers well past midnight.

Correct. Part-time tower/TRACONs are FNT, GRR, AZO, MKG, and MBS. Part-time towers are SAW, TVC, and APN. Those without towers at all are CVX, CMX, PLN, CIU, ESC, IMT, and MBL.

 

[Doggtyred]

The problem with night shift is people not getting enough rest FOR WHATEVER REASON during their off hours.

If you try to be a "day person" on your nights off you WILL have trouble. even more so if you try to be a day person on your day off between two night shifts.

Flipping back and forth in short sequence is bad, as is scheduling a u-turn (less than 8 hours off between shifts)

If a tower is so slow it doesn't keep you awake maybe it needs to close during those night time hours.