Third sleeping controller triggers action

roncachamp said:
The answer to this problem is to close these facilities at night. I don't see why our society wouldn't like that answer.
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Because people are stupid. Just look at the quotes in and comments to any of the articles from people that have zero idea about what really goes on.
 
roncachamp said:
The answer to this problem is to close these facilities at night. I don't see why our society wouldn't like that answer.
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The FAA doesn't appear to be interested in that obvious solution - perhaps because the top management is driven by political considerations?
 
People think that an untowered airport = dangerous

If you have a plane coming in every 20 minutes, I'd hardly call that dangerous. I'd call it foolish to keep a tower open for 3 planes an hour


Keep the tracon or center alive as normal, but do they really need to hear "cleared to land?"

I hate the public
 
EdFred said:
Because people are stupid.
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+1

This statement proves it:

5) The “best” way to manage the problem is to have three controllers assigned the shift. Two to man the position while the other rests. And yes, rest does mean sleeping.

We have employees that work 5 or 6 shifts every week from 6pm - 6am. They manage to do this without napping during that time.
 
People aren't stupid, just ignorant. No reason they should know aviation trivia, so they don't.
 
kevin7500 said:
We have employees that work 5 or 6 shifts every week from 6pm - 6am. They manage to do this without napping during that time.
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They probably don't bounce around between days and nights though, which I think is one of big problems with the way ATC handles scheduling.
 
steingar said:
People aren't stupid, just ignorant. No reason they should know aviation trivia, so they don't.
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Maybe what makes them stupid is that they don't educate themselves and become un-ignorant before they begin their demands and calls for someone's head?

Just a guess, I'm really just making stuff up. :D
 
cherokeeflyboy said:
5) The “best” way to manage the problem is to have three controllers assigned the shift. Two to man the position while the other rests. And yes, rest does mean sleeping. That isn’t going to happen -- for a multitude of social, political and financial reasons (i.e. non-safety reasons). The FAA doesn’t have the controllers to implement that strategy anyway. See #4.
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As a person that use to work the night shift that is not needed. After you work nights for a while you get use to sleeping at other times and you are not tired all night.

Everskyward said:
They probably don't bounce around between days and nights though, which I think is one of big problems with the way ATC handles scheduling.
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Now if this is true that is just stupid the people will never get use to the hours. But we are talking about the goverment so:D
 
steingar said:
People aren't stupid, just ignorant. No reason they should know aviation trivia, so they don't.
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A person is smart. People are stupid.

This isn't trivia we are talking, as in what year was the last Connie made. It's just a basic understanding of how things operate. Ignorance is no excuse.
 
Everskyward said:
They probably don't bounce around between days and nights though, which I think is one of big problems with the way ATC handles scheduling.
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Exactly. Should be at least 3-4 days off before any shift change. And no shift changes for a month. If I were running things, there wouldn't be an issue. GAH-RUN-TEED.
 
kevin7500 said:
Oh, so there is already a traffic per hour standard in place determining whether a tower is open or closed? Do you have that number?

As for the physical labor....most towers are higher than the surrounding area. Gravity will do most of the work. :wink2: I have also found that a properly placed "FREE" sign will get most things moved without complaint.
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The standard is more than four operations per hour, however there are a number of other considerations which could result in keeping it open even though the numbers don't meet the standard.
 
Remotely operate the Tower during low-traffic hours... UAVs can land remotely...

NATCA would never have it.
 
N801BH said:
Have you noticed NATCA has been extremely quiet in this whole matter .:rolleyes2::rolleyes2:..............B)
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Probably because they don't need to help the FAA look like stooges. The FAA is doing that just fine on their own.
 
Just close the towers, KJQF closes it's tower from Midnight to 7am, and it's working fine for everyone. Of course it's a regional airport, but my point still stands.
 
EdFred said:
Because people are stupid. Just look at the quotes in and comments to any of the articles from people that have zero idea about what really goes on.
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Everyone has at least a passing familiarity to what a cow is. So over on CowsOfAmerica.com you will get stupid comments from people who think they know what cow raising is really like all because they may have seen a cow at some point in their life. Heck, I think I did see a comment from an EdFred over on COA. And it was stupid.
 
Richard said:
Everyone has at least a passing familiarity to what a cow is. So over on CowsOfAmerica.com you will get stupid comments from people who think they know what cow raising is really like all because they may have seen a cow at some point in their life. Heck, I think I did see a comment from an EdFred over on COA. And it was stupid.
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I think that's a midwest dating site.
 
EdFred said:
Exactly. Should be at least 3-4 days off before any shift change. And no shift changes for a month. If I were running things, there wouldn't be an issue. GAH-RUN-TEED.
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Wasn't it just 2 or three years ago that the FAA threatened the controllers with unwieldy shift changes in order to get the controllers to kowtow to some very unfavaorable rule changes in the FAA?
 
roncachamp said:
Why operate the tower at all during low-traffic hours?
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Agreed. See sentence two of my post for why the assumption was that the tower would have to remain open even without enough traffic to warrant it. (Union.)

Add in that the general public believes that aircraft only land when the magical tower words, "Cleared to land" are invoked by the Wizards of the Tower, which has already been covered adequately here... Er, beaten to death... and those mouth-breathers represent the majority of the votes a politician needs to remain in their cushy job that strokes their ego.

Okay, all caught up now. Thought all of that was pretty obvious. Guess not.

roncachamp said:
Can you explain the similarity between UAVs and control towers?
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Both can easily be operated remotely (in low traffic density environments). Was the sentence that difficult to parse?

If the public won't stand "unmanned" towers and also won't stand sleeping controllers, there are ways to make the public believe the tower is "manned" from afar which serves the dual-purpose of side-stepping the politics of shutting them down at night, and still keeping NATCA happy with one guy sitting at a "UAV style" control console "running" five towers.

He could probably get a good nap in while doing it, too. ;)

Thinking outside the box, since it's required with all the strange "needs" of everyone involved.

Meanwhile no one "needs" most Towers to be manned in the middle of the night other than NATCA and politicians dealing with keeping morons happy... but those requirements will outweigh common sense for certain.

It's America. Why would we do the simple, effective thing first? (Close the towers at night.)
 
denverpilot said:
Both can easily be operated remotely (in low traffic density environments). Was the sentence that difficult to parse?
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I'll take that as a "No."

If the public won't stand "unmanned" towers and also won't stand sleeping controllers, there are ways to make the public believe the tower is "manned" from afar which serves the dual-purpose of side-stepping the politics of shutting them down at night, and still keeping NATCA happy with one guy sitting at a "UAV style" control console "running" five towers.
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The public does stand "unmanned" towers, many control towers close during the night because traffic levels during those hours do not require an operating control tower.
 
roncachamp said:
The public does stand "unmanned" towers, many control towers close during the night because traffic levels during those hours do not require an operating control tower.
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But how many of those towers are at airports where Airliners land at? It's one thing to have a Regional airport tower close at Midnight to 6 or 7am, it's another thing to have a tower at an airport that services airline close down.

The difference being that no one outside of General Aviation and Executive Aviation really cares about the Regional airport, I mean most people think GA is about a bunch of rich boys and their toys anyways. However, they don't hold the same view when it comes to the airlines.

So while they'll accept Regional airport tower's closing down for the night, they may not accept the airline airport tower closing down for the night.
 
EdFred said:
A person is smart. People are stupid.

This isn't trivia we are talking, as in what year was the last Connie made. It's just a basic understanding of how things operate. Ignorance is no excuse.
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Simply not true. Do you know how aspirin works? It is a common every day thing. Do you know how to sew clothing. why not, you wear it every day!

Our society is complex and thus highly compartmentalized. I would not expect anyone on the street to understand how air traffic control works, or to understand that it isn't always strictly necessary. All they know is what they see in the popular media, and that's mostly crashes.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
But how many of those towers are at airports where Airliners land at? It's one thing to have a Regional airport tower close at Midnight to 6 or 7am, it's another thing to have a tower at an airport that services airline close down.
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Why? Airliners land all over the world every day at airports without control towers.
 
steingar said:
Simply not true. Do you know how aspirin works? It is a common every day thing. Do you know how to sew clothing. why not, you wear it every day!

Our society is complex and thus highly compartmentalized. I would not expect anyone on the street to understand how air traffic control works, or to understand that it isn't always strictly necessary. All they know is what they see in the popular media, and that's mostly crashes.
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I do, and believe it or not, I do! I can even make stuffed animals.
 
denverpilot said:
Why? Airliners land all over the world every day at airports without control towers.
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But the general public doesn't know that. Look at how many think the tower controls EVERYTHING.
 
EdFred said:
But the general public doesn't know that. Look at how many think the tower controls EVERYTHING.
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God yes!

Whenever I tell someone ok so I was talking to ATC

"That's the tower right?"

I just answer yes. Because the tower of some podunk airport can see you 100 miles away
 
steingar said:
Our society is complex and thus highly compartmentalized. I would not expect anyone on the street to understand how air traffic control works, or to understand that it isn't always strictly necessary. All they know is what they see in the popular media, and that's mostly crashes.
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I don't expect the general public to know how air traffic control works. I do expect a media outlet to report news and not sensationalize a non-story. The stories could have easily been about redundancies built into the system which permitted all of the events to conclude safely. Not quite the same headline though.
 
elmetal said:
God yes!

Whenever I tell someone ok so I was talking to ATC

"That's the tower right?"

I just answer yes. Because the tower of some podunk airport can see you 100 miles away
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Noooooooooooooooo!!!!

I give em a quick and dirty on the three major parts of ATC. Tower, TRACON, and ARTCC. Not a lot of detail, just the basics. Sometimes it gets them even more interested.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
But how many of those towers are at airports where Airliners land at? It's one thing to have a Regional airport tower close at Midnight to 6 or 7am, it's another thing to have a tower at an airport that services airline close down.
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Obviously more than you've assumed. Appleton, Green Bay, and Madison WI are all served by scheduled airlines and have control towers that close at night. And here's a real shocker for you; there are airports with scheduled airline service that have no control towers at all.
 
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steingar said:
Our society is complex and thus highly compartmentalized. I would not expect anyone on the street to understand how air traffic control works, or to understand that it isn't always strictly necessary.
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Nor would I, but it would be nice if the Secretary of Transportation had some idea how ATC works.
 
roncachamp said:
Obviously more than you've assumed. Appleton, Green Bay, and Madison WI are all served by scheduled airlines and close at night. And here's a real shocker for you; there are airports with scheduled airline service that have no control towers at all.
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Same with PVD - Class C airport where big jets land. It (the tower , not the airport) closes at night....jets still land.
 
I'm not so sure whether or not the average person knows or cares if there is a tower or if it is open. I have flown people to places where there is clearly no tower (visible, anyway) and have never been questioned about it. I'm not surprised or unhappy the the general public doesn't know that much about aviation. There are plenty of things I use daily which I don't have too much knowledge about. Computers, for example. My eyes glaze over whenever someone starts talking about the technical aspects and various languages.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm not so sure whether or not the average person knows or cares if there is a tower or if it is open. I have flown people to places where there is clearly no tower (visible, anyway) and have never been questioned about it. I'm not surprised or unhappy the the general public doesn't know that much about aviation. There are plenty of things I use daily which I don't have too much knowledge about. Computers, for example. My eyes glaze over whenever someone starts talking about the technical aspects and various languages.
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But you also aren't calling for unnecessary changes to the computing world.
 
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