Third Class Medical and Alchol Offenses

I don't think he was asking about whether he NEEDED to report the incident, he was inquiring about the repercussions of the report if you don't have a medical. I suspect If the FAA wanted to make a deal out of it, they'll just notify you don't meet the medical standards and that's enough to block you from flying under basic med (or sport pilot ...).
 
When you do basic med, you release the national driver's registry to the FAA. If you get a DL suspension the FAA will know. Then you get the attached form letter, informing you that they can action your PILOT certificate. Congress did not cede control of the drunks (despite the Cavanaugh decision).
 

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jstone said:
So you’re telling me that the faa at some point revoked or suspended babbitt’s medical? Does that mean he spent nearly a year without his medical while the faa took their time since he was now considered non rev? I just don’t see them treating his case like any other airman since he was the administrator even if he resigned after his dui arrest.
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He was down for..."quite some time"....and re-emerged as the DISASTER SWA Labor manager. Which, didn't last long.
 
bflynn said:
I wasn't talking about Babbit, this branched from something much further up.
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In post #31, you replied to a post by Midlifeflyer. That post from Midlifeflyer was a reply to a post of mine that arose out of an earlier claim that Babbitt got special treatment.

Yes, obviously 61.15 requires a MVA for an alcohol problem. But how do you get a DUI without a motor vehicle?
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Where did anyone say anything about "without a motor vehicle"? :confused2:
 
Half Fast said:
If @Palmpilot is correct when he says,
I don't see any requirement in 61.15 to report a DUI arrest before the next medical application, unless there is a conviction or other motor vehicle action.
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then a pilot without a medical would never report anything, and if his driver's license were never taken away he'd still be legal to fly under Basic or Sport.
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On the contrary, in the case of BasicMed, a DUI arrest DOES have to reported, to the state-licensed physician on the next BasicMed renewal, even if there was no conviction or other motor vehicle action. This is because of the way that question on the Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist is worded.

[Edit: My statement above is incorrect. See Post # 49.]
 
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I missed the earlier reference. Babbit was not in my thinking.

A DUI arrest is a MVA under 61.15e and has to be reported within 60 days. Even flying with basicmed, you hold a pilot certificate issued under part 61.

edit - my mistake, a mere arrest is not enough. You need a conviction.
 
Palmpilot said:
On the contrary, in the case of BasicMed, a DUI arrest DOES have to reported, to the state-licensed physician on the next BasicMed renewal, even if there was no conviction or other motor vehicle action. This is because of the way that question on the Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist is worded.
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Yes, but nothing goes to the FAA.
 
Half Fast said:
At least part of the question is what happens when there is no medical to review, such as someone flying under Basic Med (or perhaps Sport Pilots or glider pilots). The FAA would then have to use a certificate action, but that seems to have different criteria.

If @Palmpilot is correct when he says,



then a pilot without a medical would never report anything, and if his driver's license were never taken away he'd still be legal to fly under Basic or Sport.
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Let's look at three things.

  1. It is almost impossible to be arrested for a DUI and not have a reportable "motor vehicle action" unless, of course you passed the tests.
  2. FARC 68.11 Authority to require additional information. It allows information to be obtained and action to be taken on BasicMed pilots.
  3. 49 USC 44709 (Yes, that "709"), which allows the FAA to reexamine the qualifications of any FAA certificate holder.
Cracks to get through? Maybe tiny inconsequential ones.
 
Palmpilot said:
On the contrary, in the case of BasicMed, a DUI arrest DOES have to reported, to the state-licensed physician on the next BasicMed renewal, even if there was no conviction or other motor vehicle action. This is because of the way that question on the Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist is worded.
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Actually, that is not the case. For some reason, In section 2307 of FESSA (the 2016 FAA authorization extension) Congress directed the FAA to insert " boxes 3 through 13 and boxes 16 through 19 of the Federal Aviation Administration Form 8500-8 (3-99)". The 1999 version of the the 8500-8 asks for convictions, not arrests. Was that intentional? Who knows. As previously mentioned, this is reported to the physician conducting the BasicMed examination, not the FAA.
 
bflynn said:
I missed the earlier reference. Babbit was not in my thinking.

A DUI arrest is a MVA under 61.15e and has to be reported within 60 days. Even flying with basicmed, you hold a pilot certificate issued under part 61.

edit - my mistake, a mere arrest is not enough. You need a conviction.
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No. You need a conviction or a motor vehicle action. If they arrest you, you take a breath test at the station, you pass, and they let you go, there's nothing to report under 61.15. If they arrest you, you fail or refuse the test, and they even temporarily suspend your license, there is.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Let's look at three things.

  1. It is almost impossible to be arrested for a DUI and not have a reportable "motor vehicle action" unless, of course you passed the tests.
  2. FARC 68.11 Authority to require additional information. It allows information to be obtained and action to be taken on BasicMed pilots.
  3. 49 USC 44709 (Yes, that "709"), which allows the FAA to reexamine the qualifications of any FAA certificate holder.
Cracks to get through? Maybe tiny inconsequential ones.
Click to expand...
"
This was what I was about to write. Under BasicMed, you release your NDR record to the FAA. Between 61.15 reports and NDR hits, the FAA has "credible or urgent information" related to one's ability to safely operate an aircraft. Section 68.11 allows the FAA to ask for additional information. While the FAA docs don't have a medical certificate application to work from, they can consult the FAA inspector reviewing the case to determine what further steps are necessary. The FAA can ask for information that looks very similar to the questions asked of a medically certificated airman who gets a DUI.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No. You need a conviction or a motor vehicle action. If they arrest you, you take a breath test at the station, you pass, and they let you go, there's nothing to report under 61.15. If they arrest you, you fail or refuse the test, and they even temporarily suspend your license, there is.
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I'm slow sometimes. Conviction vs arrest is what I was missing. I figured it out, but a little late.

It's like an FAA medical, you would report the arrest at your next medical.
 
Brad Z said:
Actually, that is not the case. For some reason, In section 2307 of FESSA (the 2016 FAA authorization extension) Congress directed the FAA to insert " boxes 3 through 13 and boxes 16 through 19 of the Federal Aviation Administration Form 8500-8 (3-99)". The 1999 version of the the 8500-8 asks for convictions, not arrests. Was that intentional? Who knows. As previously mentioned, this is reported to the physician conducting the BasicMed examination, not the FAA.
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Thanks for the correction. I knew that Congress had specified the older version of the form, but I had forgotten what the substantive difference was. When I wrote the post you replied to, I looked at the FAA medical certificate application when I should have been looking at a BasicMed form.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
No. You need a conviction or a motor vehicle action. If they arrest you, you take a breath test at the station, you pass, and they let you go, there's nothing to report under 61.15. If they arrest you, you fail or refuse the test, and they even temporarily suspend your license, there is.
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In Babbit's case, do you know if he received a motor vehicle action?
 
Brad Z said:
"
This was what I was about to write. Under BasicMed, you release your NDR record to the FAA. Between 61.15 reports and NDR hits, the FAA has "credible or urgent information" related to one's ability to safely operate an aircraft. Section 68.11 allows the FAA to ask for additional information. While the FAA docs don't have a medical certificate application to work from, they can consult the FAA inspector reviewing the case to determine what further steps are necessary. The FAA can ask for information that looks very similar to the questions asked of a medically certificated airman who gets a DUI.
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Does the FAA routinely check NDRs of people who complete the BasicMed process, or only if the pilot comes to their attention for some other reason?
 
Brad Z said:
Actually, that is not the case. For some reason, In section 2307 of FESSA (the 2016 FAA authorization extension) Congress directed the FAA to insert " boxes 3 through 13 and boxes 16 through 19 of the Federal Aviation Administration Form 8500-8 (3-99)". The 1999 version of the the 8500-8 asks for convictions, not arrests. Was that intentional? Who knows. As previously mentioned, this is reported to the physician conducting the BasicMed examination, not the FAA.
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True, but it only leaves out arrests. It still asks for non-conviction administrative actions and diversionary dispositions which involve suspension or education.

No idea if that was an accident or, if intentional, for which of a few possible reasons I can think of offhand.
 
midlifeflyer said:
True, but it only leaves out arrests. It still asks for non-conviction administrative actions and diversionary dispositions which involve suspension or education.

No idea if that was an accident or, if intentional, for which of a few possible reasons I can think of offhand.
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Agreed. The form was updated sometime in the 2000s to ask for arrests in addition to convictions. My guess is whoever was drafting the statutory language innocently did a google search for the 8500-8 and that was the last version they found, since it's now integrated into MedXpress, never realizing there was a difference. I doubt the draft ever went to the FAA for technical assistance before becoming law.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Let's look at three things.

  1. It is almost impossible to be arrested for a DUI and not have a reportable "motor vehicle action" unless, of course you passed the tests.
  2. FARC 68.11 Authority to require additional information. It allows information to be obtained and action to be taken on BasicMed pilots.
  3. 49 USC 44709 (Yes, that "709"), which allows the FAA to reexamine the qualifications of any FAA certificate holder.
Cracks to get through? Maybe tiny inconsequential ones.
Click to expand...

It happens all the time actually. There are a ton of DUI arrests that are made that do not result in either a conviction nor action taken on the defendant's DL. All it takes is a good lawyer, an arresting officer who made some mistakes or hoped some lack of evidence would be overlooked, and wah-lah! The only thing in my state that would cause action on a DL without a conviction would be refusing a breathalizer, in which case DL suspension is automatic regardless of the case outcome.
 
KeepWatch said:
It happens all the time actually. There are a ton of DUI arrests that are made that do not result in either a conviction nor action taken on the defendant's DL. All it takes is a good lawyer, an arresting officer who made some mistakes or hoped some lack of evidence would be overlooked, and wah-lah! The only thing in my state that would cause action on a DL without a conviction would be refusing a breathalizer, in which case DL suspension is automatic regardless of the case outcome.
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I wonder whether there are stats on that "ton" where LEOs screw up basic informed consent and breath test failure paperwork (assuming it in one of the "most" states which have automatic suspension for those. It's been more than a few years since my last DUI defense, but it's not something I saw.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's been more than a few years since my last DUI defense, ...
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Y'know, I'm sure you meant that from your perspective as an attorney, but I suspect many readers won't realize that and might interpret it just a little differently.... :)
 
An update from end of original post. So, I discussed my situation with a Senior AME-HIMS and the issuing AME. I asked both if there is anything, I could be proactive on with submitting requested paperwork such as going ahead and meeting with HIMS and getting test done as well as submitting letters of character from fellow aviation industry colleagues. They both responded with the just give the FAA what they ask for and the result EVENTUALLY should be yes. Maybe require a psychological eval from the HIM. Once again nothing is a guarantee but maybe a glimmer of hope for my individual situation. I am still on a fence on if should go ahead and continue training or wait for what could be up to a year for a response. I hate to waste money, but at the same time I do not want to lose time. I have just put so much money and time into it thus far and to start all back over again by the time they make a decision IF they allow me to keep my 3rd c medical in good standing would suck. I am just awaiting the DMV to give to send me my 10-year record run and my hopes will be mailed off. If they do say yes down the road and I decide to after a first-class medical will I have to do this process all over again? If that is the case and they do say yes to my 3rd I might as well just go ahead and apply for a 1st class to get the year long battle rolling. Any thoughts?
 
I have a feeling once you submit what they want they will then tel you to contact a HIMS AME and require that you go thru with the testing that HIMS requires. I personally believe that you should put the training on hold until you’re issued a medical. If you follow all the steps that Hims prescribes you will probably end up with a medical, but also keep in mind that there’s a chance you will be denied. If you do decide to go thru with the process I would say go for a 3rd class medical as it is processed much faster than a 1st class which goes thru dc. My files have been at the faa now for over 11 months to give you an idea of how long this takes and have been in monitoring for over 2 years.
 
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum and have been going through HIMS for about 3 years now. If anyone has any questions about the journey to a new lifestyle and the process. Don't hesitate to ask. I was also wondering what to expect after the FAA clears you and a SODA is issued. Anyone have any experience on successfully completing the program? Thanks in advance. If I've posted this out of context or on the wrong forum, I apologize. New guy :)
 
Pilot hopeful said:
An update from end of original post. So, I discussed my situation with a Senior AME-HIMS and the issuing AME. I asked both if there is anything, I could be proactive on with submitting requested paperwork such as going ahead and meeting with HIMS and getting test done as well as submitting letters of character from fellow aviation industry colleagues. They both responded with the just give the FAA what they ask for and the result EVENTUALLY should be yes. Maybe require a psychological eval from the HIM. Once again nothing is a guarantee but maybe a glimmer of hope for my individual situation. I am still on a fence on if should go ahead and continue training or wait for what could be up to a year for a response. I hate to waste money, but at the same time I do not want to lose time. I have just put so much money and time into it thus far and to start all back over again by the time they make a decision IF they allow me to keep my 3rd c medical in good standing would suck. I am just awaiting the DMV to give to send me my 10-year record run and my hopes will be mailed off. If they do say yes down the road and I decide to after a first-class medical will I have to do this process all over again? If that is the case and they do say yes to my 3rd I might as well just go ahead and apply for a 1st class to get the year long battle rolling. Any thoughts?
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you’re eventually going to get the demand to find a HIMS AME. Believe what you want, but if you do it FAA incrementally, “see you next spring”. “Incremental ask” Results in forever to get medicals. It’s bad enough when submit a complete package; just prolong your agony....

Flight training for this year will be a waste of money. Believe what you will.
 
bbchien said:
When you do basic med, you release the national driver's registry to the FAA. If you get a DL suspension the FAA will know. Then you get the attached form letter, informing you that they can action your PILOT certificate. Congress did not cede control of the drunks (despite the Cavanaugh decision).
Click to expand...
You may be an awesome AME to get pilots back flying, but I’m personally tired of you belittling, shaming, and other derogatory names you call people that made a mistake in life.
Perhaps you don’t drink, but I’m betting there is some skeleton in your closet that folks can berate you for.
People look to you for help after a screw up. Show some humanity.
 
bbchien said:
you’re eventually going to get the demand to find a HIMS AME. Believe what you want, but if you do it FAA incrementally, “see you next spring”. “Incremental ask” Results in forever to get medicals. It’s bad enough when submit a complete package; just prolong your agony....
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This is such simple but important advice.

I'm not particularly surprised people don't know the current system benefits those who do an advance HIMS consult with any drug or alcohol history. But I do get a bit surprised when people don't take the advice to avoid the revolving door by getting all their ducks in a row in advance.
 
Kritchlow said:
You may be an awesome AME to get pilots back flying, but I’m personally tired of you belittling, shaming, and other derogatory names you call people that made a mistake in life.
Perhaps you don’t drink, but I’m betting there is some skeleton in your closet that folks can berate you for.
People look to you for help after a screw up. Show some humanity.
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I found that comment to be more a degradation of Congress than of alcohol users.
 
Kritchlow said:
You may be an awesome AME to get pilots back flying, but I’m personally tired of you belittling, shaming, and other derogatory names you call people that made a mistake in life.
Perhaps you don’t drink, but I’m betting there is some skeleton in your closet that folks can berate you for.
People look to you for help after a screw up. Show some humanity.
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I’m missing the belittling part too. People look to Bruce for knowledge, not feelings. If you want feelings go talk to dr Phil. Some can’t handle cold hard facts.
 
RussS said:
I’m missing the belittling part too. People look to Bruce for knowledge, not feelings. If you want feelings go talk to dr Phil. Some can’t handle cold hard facts.
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I like warm soft facts! ;)
 
Kritchlow said:
You may be an awesome AME to get pilots back flying, but I’m personally tired of you belittling, shaming, and other derogatory names you call people that made a mistake in life.
Perhaps you don’t drink, but I’m betting there is some skeleton in your closet that folks can berate you for.
People look to you for help after a screw up. Show some humanity.
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Humanity, bah. Who needs it? And I'm for calling people out, BIG TIME, when the screw up, and then helping them. No "don't worry honey, it will be OK" crap.
 
I’m just tired of everyone having to bow, then get chastised for a DUI several years back.
Many here have likely done it (myself included). But I’m just soooooo tired of the rightness.
Shist happens. Get off your high horses.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m just tired of everyone having to bow, then get chastised for a DUI several years back.
Many here have likely done it (myself included). But I’m just soooooo tired of the rightness.
Shist happens. Get off your high horses.
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It's the zero tolerance society we live in. Our mistakes are OK, "their's" make them morons or worse.

Kinda like Mel Brooks' line about the difference between tragedy and comedy.
 
Actually it's the **** heads who have flown drunk in the past who have made it so tough.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m just tired of everyone having to bow, then get chastised for a DUI several years back.
Many here have likely done it (myself included). But I’m just soooooo tired of the rightness.
Shist happens. Get off your high horses.
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s being on a high horse. People make choices, and have to live with the consequences of those choices. It’s not anyone else’s fault. When you come on here and ask for advice, you open yourself to the wrath of the forum. Does it suck to be chastised for poor choices....yep. Should have thought about that before you got behind the wheel drunk.
 
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