Thinking of downsizing to a fun 2 seater

Tom-D said:
Show me a 170 in good condition under $50K
They increase in value every day.
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As Cessna 180 prices have headed higher it's brought up the price of good 170s. The pilot that owns the hangar that I rent space in just bought quite a nice 1953 170. 180 hp O-360 with a constant speed prop, VGs, 180 gear legs, float kit, skis, etc. He paid $71k for it. A few years ago, for only a bit more than that, you could have bought a similar vintage 180.

But prices for the smaller taildraggers such as the 140s, Aeroncas, Luscombes, short wing Pipers and such don't seem to have gone quite so crazy. The 150 hp Pacer tailwheel conversions can be run on mogas and still seem to be a fair bit of fun airplane for the money.
 
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Check your life insurance policy concerning flying experimental airplanes.
 
Fly North said:
Check your life insurance policy concerning flying experimental airplanes.
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They're that dialed in to the distinction? Not in my cursory research. Now, flying recreationally outright vs not, sure. But I'm a paid pilot and the .mil currently floats my life insurance access, so I'm insulated for now.
 
I flew an RV6 for 15 years and I get up every morning kicking myself for selling it. Bad knees and getting in was a hassle. I instructed in most pipers and cessnas and there is no comparison to the fun and traveling factor in an RV.... everything they say about them is true. Warning: Once you fly one there is no going back!
 
The only problem for me and an RV is that I don’t have 5 to 10 years to build one.
 
WDD said:
The only problem for me and an RV is that I don’t have 5 to 10 years to build one.
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Vans says 800-1200 hrs for the RV-14. Yup at 12 hrs. /week that is two years. But over 10000 people found the time. A friend took five years to build an RV 10. But he was working full-time and had a family. I hope to retire from my regular job and go part time in about a year. I think there’s a reason why most of the people that have these things are not under 30 years old. If you can get some help even if it is unskilled but trainable, that would seem to change things.
 
Don’t get me wrong. I would love to do something like this. I retire in a few years and could do this full time. At 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 48 hours a week - that’s about 2 years. I think I would go stir crazy being alone in the basement for 2 years. Too bad there isn’t a group build program where for every man hour you get from a group you owe an hour to another group build.

Now if I could get it done more plug and play in 6 months then maybe. Or buy an rv9a already built and then rebuild it to get it up to date.
 
WDD said:
At 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 48 hours a week - that’s about 2 years.
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5 out of 4 people aren't very good with statistics. I am one of them, barely passed stats.
 
WDD said:
Don’t get me wrong. I would love to do something like this. I retire in a few years and could do this full time. At 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 48 hours a week - that’s about 2 years. I think I would go stir crazy being alone in the basement for 2 years. Too bad there isn’t a group build program where for every man hour you get from a group you owe an hour to another group build.

Now if I could get it done more plug and play in 6 months then maybe. Or buy an rv9a already built and then rebuild it to get it up to date.
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Well 6hrs a day/5 days per week for 48 weeks puts you at 1,440 hrs in one year. You could be up and flying in less than a year . . . get to bucking those rivets!
 
Morgan3820 said:
Vans says 800-1200 hrs for the RV-14...
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Is that the complete airplane (with firewall forward, avionics, etc.), or just assembling the "slow build" airframe kit?

WDD said:
The only problem for me and an RV is that I don’t have 5 to 10 years to build one.
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There always seem to be people that need to sell their partially completed RV kit. Changes in life, discouraged builder, that sort of thing. There's people in the EAA chapters that can assess how well the assembly quality is before one has to purchase.

Someone I know at my airport just ended up selling his almost finished RV-14 project due to divorce. He had a brand new engine and prop as part of the sale. Someone got a great deal.
 
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GRG55 said:
Is that the complete airplane (with firewall forward, avionics, etc.), or just assembling the "slow build" airframe kit?
Just reading off of the website. They claim to make it 'easy'. Saying the -14 kit is their most advanced. The holes are now full size, no drilling to size. Cleco together, start riveting. I could do 1200 hours.
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GRG55 said:
Is that the complete airplane (with firewall forward, avionics, etc.), or just assembling the "slow build" airframe kit?

There always seem to be people that need to sell their partially completed RV kit. Changes in life, discouraged builder, that sort of thing. There's people in the EAA chapters that can assess how well the assembly quality is before one has to purchase.

Someone I know at my airport just ended up selling his almost finished RV-14 project due to divorce. He had a brand new engine and prop as part of the sale. Someone got a great deal.
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All of this is correct. The 800-1200 hour figure is for an experienced builder going exactly by the plans - soup to nuts. The -14 is a very well engineered kit where you can literally buy everything already kitted from Van's. Airframe, firewall forward, panel, everything. It'll all fit together with little trouble and works just fine. BUT, everyone wants something a little bit different, so people tinker. Once you open Pandora's box, you start spending a lot of time scratching your head and researching things.

A second hand kit can be a good deal - the further along, generally the better of a deal it is, assuming the work is acceptable.

The $$ traps are buying a $50K triple redundant IFR panel when you will never use more than a $15K VFR/Autopilot panel and paying a painter $20K for an Oshkosh winning paint job. Peer pressure pushes a lot of people in those directions and their projects cost 50% more than they expected.
 
I bought an RV9A project October 2018 that the guy decided he was tired of building. He advertised it at 1/2 what he had in it. I bought it, had to drive to California from Oklahoma to get it. I enlisted some help from a friend to help me get it in the air sooner. I'll be test flying it mid February.
 
kyleb said:
All of this is correct. The 800-1200 hour figure is for an experienced builder going exactly by the plans - soup to nuts. The -14 is a very well engineered kit where you can literally buy everything already kitted from Van's. Airframe, firewall forward, panel, everything. It'll all fit together with little trouble and works just fine. BUT, everyone wants something a little bit different, so people tinker. Once you open Pandora's box, you start spending a lot of time scratching your head and researching things.

A second hand kit can be a good deal - the further along, generally the better of a deal it is, assuming the work is acceptable.

The $$ traps are buying a $50K triple redundant IFR panel when you will never use more than a $15K VFR/Autopilot panel and paying a painter $20K for an Oshkosh winning paint job. Peer pressure pushes a lot of people in those directions and their projects cost 50% more than they expected.
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I there any particular place to look for the partial kit deals? Or is it random?

I am not looking for the award winner. I would actually be happy with round gauges and a decent AP. They all fly the same.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I there any particular place to look for the partial kit deals? Or is it random?
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Word of mouth at the local airports, EAA chapters, etc. is probably the best way to buy or sell a kit.

After that, Vansairforce.com has a for sale section, and Barnstormers is always worth a look. Even Ebay has the occasional nugget.

I got my partial RV-6 kits out of Trade a Plane, but that was a different era. ;-)
 
Morgan3820 said:
I am not looking for the award winner. I would actually be happy with round gauges and a decent AP.
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There are a lot of good RV-6's out there that fit your description. There's one sitting in my hangar. (Not for sale unless someone needs it REALLY badly).
 
kyleb said:
The $$ traps are buying a $50K triple redundant IFR panel when you will never use more than a $15K VFR/Autopilot panel and paying a painter $20K for an Oshkosh winning paint job. Peer pressure pushes a lot of people in those directions and their projects cost 50% more than they expected.
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Reminds me of a story with a builder having a big dollar paint job put on his Zenith 601XL but wouldn't spend ~ $500 to have the MA3SPA carb rebuilt after he knew it was having issues. Tried rebuilding the carb himself and wound up dead in a schoolyard (thankfully it was a weekend) on the first flight attempt.

Spending money on stuff that's not needed or you'll never use is one thing but the builder of an experimental aircraft has got to be rabidly focused on the thing bring correctly built & reliable. I'll take some cheap upholstery and an inexpensive "2200 paint job" (that's what I have on mine) but don't go cheap on the things that matter. This is even more important if you plan to put family and friends in the thing that you build.

Just one old man's opinion ...
 
Daleandee said:
Reminds me of a story with a builder having a big dollar paint job put on his Zenith 601XL but wouldn't spend ~ $500 to have the MA3SPA carb rebuilt after he knew it was having issues. Tried rebuilding the carb himself and wound up dead in a schoolyard (thankfully it was a weekend) on the first flight attempt.

Spending money on stuff that's not needed or you'll never use is one thing but the builder of an experimental aircraft has got to be rabidly focused on the thing bring correctly built & reliable. I'll take some cheap upholstery and an inexpensive "2200 paint job" (that's what I have on mine) but don't go cheap on the things that matter. This is even more important if you plan to put family and friends in the thing that you build.

Just one old man's opinion ...
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Peer pressure has really pushed the RV line upscale over the years. I bought 2 partial kits to start mine, and later bought a runout engine and rebuilt it myself for the airplane. I painted it in my garage. With a bucket of craftmanship, the inexpensive route worked out pretty well. That kind of thing was fairly common 20-25 years ago.

Not so much today, but it is still doable unless you're driven by keeping up with the Joneses.

Here it is taxiing in at Oshkosh.

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Check out the Liberty XL. It’s now an orphan, but there are a lot of owners and a forum. It has a 590 lb. useful load and an IOF-240B engine. Cruise is 125 knots on 5 GPH. Prices are around 60 - 70 K. I’m 6’3 with broad shoulders and fit comfortably. Be sure it has the Vanguard Weight increase, or you can have it done. The plane was designed for easy maintenance, and one owner reported a 10 HR annual! It handled better than a C-172.
 
kyleb said:
Peer pressure has really pushed the RV line upscale over the years. I bought 2 partial kits to start mine, and later bought a runout engine and rebuilt it myself for the airplane. I painted it in my garage. With a bucket of craftmanship, the inexpensive route worked out pretty well. That kind of thing was fairly common 20-25 years ago.

Not so much today, but it is still doable unless you're driven by keeping up with the Joneses.

Here it is taxiing in at Oshkosh.

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That sure is a fine lookin' -6!
 
GRG55 said:
That sure is a fine lookin' -6!
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Thank you. I've built a lot of things over the years, but the RV-6 is the one that really hit the mark, coming out exactly as I envisioned it.
 
What about the 150 Aerobat? And keeping with the rules of POA, a acrobatic Bonanza?
 
kyleb said:
Thank you. I've built a lot of things over the years, but the RV-6 is the one that really hit the mark, coming out exactly as I envisioned it.
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Every time I start deluding myself about building an -8 I remind myself of that homebuilder's adage about "90% done, 90% left to go".

Even starting with a partially finished project requires discipline and dedication to get to a completed, flying, nicely finished airplane.

To you, and all the others here on PoA who have completed an EAB from scratch or kit, a well deserved congratulations!
 
Getting somewhat off topic - but it seemed that to get in the air buying used was cheaper than building your own. But with the crazy prices I see these days - and with the the trend continuing up - I wonder if we've now reached the point where building an RV9A or RV 14 is actually a better value than the cost of a comparable used plane is these days?
 
WDD said:
Getting somewhat off topic - but it seemed that to get in the air buying used was cheaper than building your own. But with the crazy prices I see these days - and with the the trend continuing up - I wonder if we've now reached the point where building an RV9A or RV 14 is actually a better value than the cost of a comparable used plane is these days?
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I find the comparison usually imperfect.
Most of us have to earn the money to buy an airplane.
Most of the time when someone tells me how much their EAB cost to build they put zero value on their time used.
 
GRG55 said:
I find the comparison usually imperfect.
Most of us have to earn the money to buy an airplane.
Most of the time when someone tells me how much their EAB cost to build they put zero value on their time used.
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Well the purpose of building an experimental aircraft is for education. Do the math to figure out how much it would have cost to go to a trade school for those self taught talents and consider that compensation. I find it pretty crazy that some people sell partially finished projects expecting to profit from their labor.
 
WDD said:
Getting somewhat off topic - but it seemed that to get in the air buying used was cheaper than building your own. But with the crazy prices I see these days - and with the the trend continuing up - I wonder if we've now reached the point where building an RV9A or RV 14 is actually a better value than the cost of a comparable used plane is these days?
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It's getting really close but by the time you factor in all the tooling to build the project and your time it will still be a loss. That said, when it's done you will have an airplane you can completely maintain your self for life (+$$$) and is brand new. Buying from someone else you could be buying their problem, and you will still be paying an A&P for condition inspections.
 
GRG55 said:
I find the comparison usually imperfect.
Most of us have to earn the money to buy an airplane.
Most of the time when someone tells me how much their EAB cost to build they put zero value on their time used.
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True. If I’m retired then the time cost is nothing.
 
one big reason that prices are going sky high is the new breed of assemblers (yes you do not build the newer models) they will not vary from the plans, they must buy everything new, they have to install every one of the latest thing. do i find fault in that? no its just the way things have played out. but it has drove prices of even basic equipment aircraft up. you should see some of the looks i get when people find out my engine is total time unknow, time since major is unknow, and bought with no log books.
 
I think the best one you mentioned so far was the Starduster (II). You have an IFR tourer in the arrow, go extreme and get a open cockpit low and slow and fast airplane. That would be my choice... there is also one for sale near me so I could be influenced lol. If not a starduster, something else that fits the low and slow and possibly open (depending where you live) bill.
 
WDD said:
True. If I’m retired then the time cost is nothing.
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Never assume your time isn't worth something. Even when that something is the immense satisfaction of building your own airplane. :thumbsup:
 
If retired my wife might pay to get me out of the house and something to do LOL.
 
TipTanks said:
I think the best one you mentioned so far was the Starduster (II). You have an IFR tourer in the arrow, go extreme and get a open cockpit low and slow and fast airplane. That would be my choice... there is also one for sale near me so I could be influenced lol. If not a starduster, something else that fits the low and slow and possibly open (depending where you live) bill.
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Second the Starduster suggestion, though it's not all that slow, it's not a bush plane by any means. Great plane for the $100 burger with a loop and roll along the way. But it could be the prettiest plane on the airport. You need solid tailwheel skills, though it's not as twitchy as a Pitts. I really enjoyed mine (it was a One, the single seat version) for the brief time I owned it. You can get a nice Starduster Too for under $30K.

Now my Hatz, that's low and slow...
 
Continuing off topic - in addition to cost of building now the same as buying new, the scarcity of inventory might be another reason to just build something. Seems hard to find a good airplane for sale that isn't sold before you have time to react.
 
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