Thinking about an EV (nvm, bought one)

[asicer]

I have never been able to figure out the difference between a "portable" EVSE and a wall-mount one.

Smart features with network connectivity?
Data logging?
Weather resistance?
Durability tradeoffs?
Repairability?
Theft-deterring mount?
90-degree plug?
NEMA 6/10/14/etc adapter kit?

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Smart features with network connectivity?

Spyware

Data logging?

Spyware

Weather resistance?
Durability tradeoffs?
Repairability?
Theft-deterring mount?
90-degree plug?
NEMA 6/10/14/etc adapter kit?

Neat (maybe)

 

[Velocity173]

I’m EV and ICE neutral. But a blanket won’t have any use when inside a residential garage even with a quick (4 minute) response time from a fire-department. Trucks usually carry 500-1000 gal and support tankers are in the 1500-3000 range typically, if no hydrant is available. It takes the “carbeque” to another level, lol!

Seems like they try and get it under control with water, then drag it out of the garage and throw a blanket over it.

 

[Velocity173]

You also won't see anything about the number of cars that wouldn't start because the batteries were dead/low, or the number of diesels that wouldn't start because they weren't plugged in and/or batteries were too low to crank over that 16+:1 compression.

The other day when it was -10F here I had plugged in my truck (Cummins 6.7 powered Ram) for about 4 hours, but hadn't let it sit overnight with the block heater. It started up just "fine" (not fully happy, but it caught and coughed a bit and didn't shut off) but until it got up to operating temperature the rail pressure was dropping off at anything above about 20% load. I have a gismo that tells me things including rail pressure, and it was interesting to watch. Fuel gelling issues. Once it got up to temp it was "fine", but that took about 20 minutes, it took another hour for the coolant and oil temps to actually reach normal level, and every time I stopped for 5 minutes with the engine running they dropped 20 degrees.

Nevermind the fact that I had to double clutch for upshifts until the transmission warmed up because the transmission fluid was so thick that it basically stopped the input shaft as soon as it was disconnected from the engine.

If it got this cold here more often I'd have a radiator cover in use but it doesn't happen that much.

Would an EV have performed better? Good question, it probably wouldn't have had the range for the amount of driving I did that day, but the gasoline powered vehicles would've performed best provided it started. Which, our gasoline powered vehicle that was running around that day as well (and had sat outside overnight with no block heater etc.) had no issues other than the touch screen needing to warm up as well on initial start.

An example of the range that I have right now at 90 % battery. I did this trip in the Subaru last month with only one 10 minute gas stop. If I would’ve used my Tesla it would have been four 45 minute stops. Now I will say mine is an old Tesla so the newer ones would only be two to three stops.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Seems like they try and get it under control with water, then drag it out of the garage and throw a blanket over it.

My understanding is that the blanket is more to stop it from catching other things on fire than to put its own fire out since the batteries don't need air to burn.

 

[FastEddieB]

On the plus side, the Fort Valley SuperCharger is at a Buc-ee’s!

Love them Beaver Nuggets!

That said, here’s that trip for our Model 3 Long Range from near Knoxville:

Fewer, shorter stops, every couple of hours. We’ve made that trip or similar many times, and have never found the charging times problematic. I challenge anyone to get into and out of a Buc-ee’s in 16 minutes!

 

[SoonerAviator]

Saw an article from one of the early Tesla CyberTruck owners on YouTube. He went on a ~1,300mi road trip and had to charge something like 10 times, took him 25 hours to make the trip which ICE vehicles would make in 19hrs. He also ran into a lot of issues with Telsa charging stations not having long enough charging cords to easily reach the CyberTruck charging port without practically putting the bumper against the kiosk. Thing had something like 150mi range at 80mph. Tesla may want to go back to the drawing board on that one.

 

[NoBShere]

with regard to comparison of plug in chargers to clothes dryers, the load is very different. I first installed a standard big box store outlet (i.e. great for clothes dryer). After thinking about the load difference, I opted for a more industrial/commercial outlet. When installing, it was obviously more robust (and expensive) and i could actually meet the torque specs. I went with a plug in charger as I have a vacation place in the mountains so I wouldn't have to buy two chargers. As it turns out, while i normally still have about 30% battery after the 170 mile drive, its up hill so I don't need 170 miles of charge on the way home with regen braking. So I normally just use the painfully slow charger (i.e. level 1) and just leave the level 2 plugged in at home. I know i'm being overly precautious but, i don't like plugging and plugging the level 2 unless i have to, and i normally throw the breaker before i do. I haven't unplugged it in years though.

There were some really cheap chargers available on amazon but, I don't like putting that much load through something "cheap". I opted for a zero frills residential version of a commercial charger (clipper creek) i have had installed at a few facilities. It has zero controls, its just a fancy cord. I chose that as my grocery getter ev has charging controls through its own ap. Seemed redundant to need controls from both car and charger. I am curious of the ev car fires, how many were due to inferior charging setups that did not meet industry standards for electrical connections (local code) or charger certifications (i.e. UL).

While I own more ICE than EV, I do find it funny that the ICE homers says that EVs don't work in the cold but, really cold climates have to plug in heaters for their ICE car so it will start in the morning. I know the ICErs won't like this but, a gas station local to my vacation place was selling water contaminated gas over the holidays that caused numerous people to have bricked ICE cars. So i guess the ICErs are going to have to go back to horse and buggy.

 

[Velocity173]

Saw an article from one of the early Tesla CyberTruck owners on YouTube. He went on a ~1,300mi road trip and had to charge something like 10 times, took him 25 hours to make the trip which ICE vehicles would make in 19hrs. He also ran into a lot of issues with Telsa charging stations not having long enough charging cords to easily reach the CyberTruck charging port without practically putting the bumper against the kiosk. Thing had something like 150mi range at 80mph. Tesla may want to go back to the drawing board on that one.

Cold sux. 900 miles and 8 charges.

 

[NoBShere]

Saw an article from one of the early Tesla CyberTruck owners on YouTube. He went on a ~1,300mi road trip and had to charge something like 10 times, took him 25 hours to make the trip which ICE vehicles would make in 19hrs. He also ran into a lot of issues with Telsa charging stations not having long enough charging cords to easily reach the CyberTruck charging port without practically putting the bumper against the kiosk. Thing had something like 150mi range at 80mph. Tesla may want to go back to the drawing board on that one.

I don't understand why anyone would want to go on roadtrip over 500 to 600 miles in an EV. That just isn't within an EVs mission without huge sacrifices. I'm personally fine with one stop for food but, more than that, ICE.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I don't understand why anyone would want to go on roadtrip over 500 to 600 miles in an EV. That just isn't within an EVs mission without huge sacrifices. I'm personally fine with one stop for food but, more than that, ICE.

I agree, but even without the long trip part of it, the range was just paltry for something touted as the "next big thing" from Tesla. I would have thought that 250-300 miles would have been acceptable. Apparently there was a noticeable drop in efficiency if the tonneau cover was left retracted, which isn't dissimilar to ICE trucks, but it's generally not a major source of drag. It also had the main screen shut off a couple of times and backlighting wasn't working.

 

[Velocity173]

Don’t get all the hoopla around Buc-ees. Been to one in Denton. Basically a big gas station with limited shopping and mediocre food.

 

[Larry in TN]

The Mach-E is, from everything I've heard, a good option. It should especially appeal to those who prefer having more physical controls in a more conventional setup. Someone with one should come through Nashville and we can take turns driving each other's car to compare. So far, I've only seen them from a distance.

Been eying used Taycan prices. Unless something really cool comes out in the next couple of years, that’ll be my next EV.

I hear a lot of good things that them. Really nice charging curve for road trips. I'd want to wait until they finish the switch to NACS.

Also how easy is it to install the charger?

It's as easy as installing an electric dryer outlet. The most expensive part of the installation is the wire and that will depend on the location of your electric panel. If cost is a concern, a 240v/30A circuit is fast enough for almost anyone. For a bit more, thicker wire, you can do 240v/50A or 240v/60A for a faster charge.

I’m EV and ICE neutral. But a blanket won’t have any use when inside a residential garage even with a quick (4 minute) response time from a fire-department. Trucks usually carry 500-1000 gal and support tankers are in the 1500-3000 range typically, if no hydrant is available. It takes the “carbeque” to another level, lol!

The key to avoiding an EV fire in your garage is to have the charging equipment installed correctly. Other than the faulty Bolt batteries, from a few years ago, a charging car isn't going to burst into flames. The fire is most likely to start from cheap, or improperly installed, electrical connections catching the garage on fire and then spreading to the car. Tesla, and probably others, now have thermal monitoring in their "chargers" (EVSE) which reduce charging rate when things get too warm. Make sure your EVSE has that feature.

An example of the range that I have right now at 90 % battery. I did this trip in the Subaru last month with only one 10 minute gas stop. If I would’ve used my Tesla it would have been four 45 minute stops. Now I will say mine is an old Tesla so the newer ones would only be two to three stops.

I've never driven a Model S and don't know a lot about the earlier models, like yours. If that's how it performs, I understand why you have such negative views on taking it on road trips. In late-model Teslas, if you need to Supercharge for 45 minutes you're doing something wrong. Eddie's plan didn't even have 45 minutes of total charging for the entire trip. His longest stop was 16 minutes.

 

[Bill]

Don’t get all the hoopla around Buc-ees. Been to one in Denton. Basically a big gas station with limited shopping and mediocre food.

It’s the spectacle of the joint! And beyond that, the sliced brisket sandwich is actually very good for the price, and the fresh jerky made on premises is excellent.

 

[FastEddieB]

I don't understand why anyone would want to go on roadtrip over 500 to 600 miles in an EV. That just isn't within an EVs mission without huge sacrifices. I'm personally fine with one stop for food but, more than that, ICE.

We’ve been north to Ottawa and south to Key West with dozens of trips in between. I would be forthright enough to admit it if we felt we were “sacrificing“ anything, “huge” or otherwise. We don’t, and enjoy road tripping in our Tesla more than any car we’ve ever owned.

Stipulated: NOT saying EV’s fit everyone’s mission profile. Need to just gas ‘n’ go and do 1,000 mile days, ICE is the way to go. But it sure works for us right now, and will only get better with more charging stations coming online, shorter charge times and improving battery chemistries.

 

[Bill]

It's as easy as installing an electric dryer outlet. The most expensive part of the installation is the wire and that will depend on the location of your electric panel. If cost is a concern, a 240v/30A circuit is fast enough for almost anyone. For a bit more, thicker wire, you can do 240v/50A or 240v/60A for a faster charge.

Sometimes not so easy. We have a detached garage, and the present electrical service is 120v/30A, which is woefully inadequate for charging EVs. To complicate matters, the service is underground, and the wires run underneath 25’ of paved patio. The cost to install a proper charger is such that I’d never see any savings going electric. As such, it’s just a total nope for us, the only way I’d go electric is if for some reason I can no longer purchase a new/used ICE vehicle.

 

[schmookeeg]

Smart features with network connectivity?
Data logging?
Weather resistance?
Durability tradeoffs?
Repairability?
Theft-deterring mount?
90-degree plug?
NEMA 6/10/14/etc adapter kit?

Yeah I dunno. I secretly think the wall-mount ones are just a portable EVSE in a square box with a $200 higher price. Possibly Amazon has turned me cynical about all consumer products these days. I don't know how to suss out the durability/repairability differences (and I have an app for my car, so the smart features are redundant for me -- I get that they have value for others)

The portable EVSE has more claim to being weatherproof I'd think than a box intended to go into a garage.

 

[Larry in TN]

Sometimes not so easy. We have a detached garage, and the present electrical service is 120v/30A

As I said, it's as easy as installing an outlet for an electric dryer. You aren't going to be putting one of those into your garage, either.

 

[Larry in TN]

Yeah I dunno. I secretly think the wall-mount ones are just a portable EVSE in a square box with a $200 higher price. Possibly Amazon has turned me cynical about all consumer products these days. I don't know how to suss out the durability/repairability differences (and I have an app for my car, so the smart features are redundant for me -- I get that they have value for others)

The portable EVSE has more claim to being weatherproof I'd think than a box intended to go into a garage.

Big advantage for a hard-wired EVSE is that it is hardwired. No outlet to fail, or connections to loosen from repeated plugging/unplugging. You can also get them that are fully outdoor rated. Much better than an outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet.

The biggest danger, IMO, of the 14-50 outlet, is when people use consumer-grade receptacles ($10 at Lowes) that aren't designed for high current for hours at a time. A commercial-grade receptacle (~$80), properly torqued, will perform much better.

 

[Grum.Man]

Love them or hate them, a Tesla would be the only EV I'd own right now simply because of the charging infrastructure. I know other vehicles are adopting the Tesla style charge port so that may change. Otherwise I've seen so many horror stories of charging stations I would be really uncomfortable planning a trip where I arrived at one with minimal range. Add in the fact that you aren't supposed to routinely charge them over 80% (I've read) your real world range is likely only 150ish miles for most EV's when it comes to road trips. If the mission is to go somewhere and return home sure you could start to stretch it out more. I would certainly be more comfortable taking a Tesla out to it's max being more assured to not have issues at the designated charge point. Ultimately though, until the price of an EV becomes noticeably less than a comparable ICE car, they just want be for me. Looks like the used market is heading that way so we will see. I shouldn't need a new car for another 8 years minimum so by then who knows what the options will be.

 

[MIFlyer]

On the plus side, the Fort Valley SuperCharger is at a Buc-ee’s!

Love them Beaver Nuggets!

That said, here’s that trip for our Model 3 Long Range from near Knoxville:

Fewer, shorter stops, every couple of hours. We’ve made that trip or similar many times, and have never found the charging times problematic. I challenge anyone to get into and out of a Buc-ee’s in 16 minutes!

Eddie, if at one of your stops, say the Fort Valley one, you only "need" 16 minutes, but you end up shopping for 25 and leave with a higher than planned charge, does the software automatically revise the rest of the trip to either eliminate a stop or change them (location/duration)?

 

[MIFlyer]

Love them or hate them, a Tesla would be the only EV I'd own right now simply because of the charging infrastructure. I know other vehicles are adopting the Tesla style charge port so that may change. Otherwise I've seen so many horror stories of charging stations I would be really uncomfortable planning a trip where I arrived at one with minimal range. Add in the fact that you aren't supposed to routinely charge them over 80% (I've read) your real world range is likely only 150ish miles for most EV's when it comes to road trips. If the mission is to go somewhere and return home sure you could start to stretch it out more. I would certainly be more comfortable taking a Tesla out to it's max being more assured to not have issues at the designated charge point. Ultimately though, until the price of an EV becomes noticeably less than a comparable ICE car, they just want be for me. Looks like the used market is heading that way so we will see. I shouldn't need a new car for another 8 years minimum so by then who knows what the options will be.

One note, I would say if they say don't "routinely" charge over 80%, the exception is road trips. Go ahead and charge to 100% before leaving home, and at each overnight stop. The few times you do this shouldn't hurt the battery pack in any real way. They're just saying don't charge to 100% every night in the garage when you only need 30 miles to go to work and back the next day.

Editing to add, I wouldn't buy an EV without a range of 300 miles if it was going to be our family trip car. 90% of our destinations are well under 300 miles (most of our car trips are 100-200 miles each way). The exception is Seattle-Bend where it's 350 so we'd have to stop for a brief top off somewhere on that 6 hour drive.

 

[172andyou]

I know other vehicles are adopting the Tesla style charge port so that may change.

Yep. Changing rapidly.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Love them or hate them, a Tesla would be the only EV I'd own right now simply because of the charging infrastructure. I know other vehicles are adopting the Tesla style charge port so that may change. Otherwise I've seen so many horror stories of charging stations I would be really uncomfortable planning a trip where I arrived at one with minimal range. Add in the fact that you aren't supposed to routinely charge them over 80% (I've read) your real world range is likely only 150ish miles for most EV's when it comes to road trips. If the mission is to go somewhere and return home sure you could start to stretch it out more. I would certainly be more comfortable taking a Tesla out to it's max being more assured to not have issues at the designated charge point. Ultimately though, until the price of an EV becomes noticeably less than a comparable ICE car, they just want be for me. Looks like the used market is heading that way so we will see. I shouldn't need a new car for another 8 years minimum so by then who knows what the options will be.

My understanding is that Tesla network will be available to all EV's shortly and may just require an adapter. The other charging networks also now rival or exceed the Tesla network (in my area).

I ruled Tesla's off my list for a few reasons... One I worked with their engineers at a previous employer and was pretty mortified. Also you're a 52 year old's grown man's temper tantrum away from him deciding to turn off all of his cars. There's also a lot of cold weather issues from a vehicle that was not made by a normal car engineers. i.e door handles, ice sliding into the trunk etc.

 

[FastEddieB]

Eddie, if at one of your stops, say the Fort Valley one, you only "need" 16 minutes, but you end up shopping for 25 and leave with a higher than planned charge, does the software automatically revise the rest of the trip to either eliminate a stop or change them (location/duration)?

Yes. We often decide to sit/shop/walk the dog/for a a bit longer, as long as we’re there, to pick up some extra “cushion”. The software can also look ahead to see if a particular SuperCharger is at or near capacity, and it will automatically reroute you to one that’s not. As you drive, you can see how many charging stations are available at the next SuperCharger. Three times we’ve seen a little ”stopwatch” icon, indicating we could expect a wait - once in Sarasota and twice in Canada. But each time there were one or more stations by the time we arrived, and to date we’ve never had to wait.

 

[Grum.Man]

Also you're a 52 year old's grown man's temper tantrum away from him deciding to turn off all of his cars

That's not really true. Tesla has a board just like any other publicly traded company that can overrule such tendencies. I admire the guy, what he has accomplished, and his stick it to the man attitude which if I'm being honest is another main reason they are the only ones I would consider. Everyone is copying their door handles which I agree are needlessly complicated and annoying, kind of like the swipe handle on the Mach E. Even the doors on my Lincoln Corsair freeze up and become difficult to open occasionally and water runs into the cargo area when I open the rear hatch. So I guess that makes Ford engineers just as mortifying. Heck the most basic part of owning an ICE car is a struggle with my Lincoln sometimes when filling it with gas. Some days it just refuses to let gas in without tripping the pump and the dealer insist nothing is wrong. Or the recall that has been out for almost a year with no planned fix for the 360 camera.

 

[Larry in TN]

Eddie, if at one of your stops, say the Fort Valley one, you only "need" 16 minutes, but you end up shopping for 25 and leave with a higher than planned charge, does the software automatically revise the rest of the trip to either eliminate a stop or change them (location/duration)?

Yes. While charging, the car will show how many minutes of charging remaining to continue your trip.

You can also browse other Superchargers, and their nearby amenities, and choose a different place to stop. i.e. avoid a Buckees in favor of your favorite fast food stop.

The system now also tracks cars that are navigating to each Supercharger and their ETA and routing around Superchargers that will be full when you get to them. Previously, it only showed the current availability.

As to the door handles, the handles are just switches. They don't operate the latch. If a handle is frozen, you can unlatch the driver's door from the mobile app then unlatch the other doors from inside the car.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

So I guess that makes Ford engineers just as mortifying.

Nah I wasn't talking about the product. The team I worked with (manufacturing engineers) didn't know what a PLC was... I mean WTF.

 

[172andyou]

Tesla has a board just like any other publicly traded company that can overrule such tendencies

Elon is increasingly erratic and, while I agree the board has power, each time Elon does something erratic it legitimizes a fear that the board power might be exercised "after the fact" to undo something he has already done, rather than stop him from doing it in the first place.

 

[Grum.Man]

Nah I wasn't talking about the product. The team I worked with (manufacturing engineers) didn't know what a PLC was... I mean WTF.

look on the bright side, at least you could talk to the Tesla engineer without knowing Spanish like you would for the MachE.

 

[FastEddieB]

look on the bright side, at least you could talk to the Tesla engineer without knowing Spanish like you would for the MachE.

¿Qué?

 

[Racerx]

Obviously different batteries but still an eye opener.

 

[172andyou]

look on the bright side, at least you could talk to the Tesla engineer without knowing Spanish like you would for the MachE.

They speak Spanish in North Carolina? I mean, I know they have funny accents, but...

 

[2-Bit Speed]

This is a good video about EV fires from a good channel.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

They speak Spanish in North Carolina? I mean, I know they have funny accents, but...

They move further north every year, it seems.

 

[Flyhound]

I do all of my own vehicle maintenance and oil changes are due for both of our cars. Getting on the ground (or even on my creeper) in these cold temps is miserable. My next vehicle will be electric just to avoid oil changes all together. The number of electric vehicles available expands each year, so when we are ready for our next car purchase in a couple of years there will be even more options - both new and used. I'm retired, so don't have any commute and I live in a small town, so everything is close. An EV makes tremendous sense for my wife and I. On the rare occasion we travel farther, we either use our plane, or fly commercially. An electric car really has no downside for us. I'm actually looking forward to the change.

 

[PaulS]

Nah I wasn't talking about the product. The team I worked with (manufacturing engineers) didn't know what a PLC was... I mean WTF.

That's probably because they are designing and building their own tooling, controllers included.

 

[RyanB]

Congrats on the purchase! We'll be likely jumping on the EV train sometime this summer, so I look forward to further reviews!

Be prepared for everyone to tell you how wrong you are!

 

[FastEddieB]

I do all of my own vehicle maintenance and oil changes are due for both of our cars. Getting on the ground (or even on my creeper) in these cold temps is miserable. My next vehicle will be electric just to avoid oil changes all together.

I would love to not have to deal with oil ever again!

I have a comparable amount of oil at the GA house as well. And yet I STILL sometimes don’t have the grade I need!

Not going to happen in my lifetime, but there will surely come a time when this will be seen as the ”dark ages” of ICE.

As an aside, you can also see our Tesla Mobile Charger, plugged into that “piggy-backed” L14–30R receptacle. The charging is done outside. We just have to be sure not to try to raise/lower the hangar door while charging.

 

[schmookeeg]

Anyone know anything about the Lyriq? I've only seen one in the wild, and while I'm stalled by analysis paralysis in the market for a 3-row ICE, I wonder if I could make that work as a 2-row EV instead. It looks similar in size to my Outback, or maybe a pinch smaller.

Super Cruise is very appealling to me, and has been for an age, and the recent price chops seem to have brought this thing closer to reality in its pricing (while everything else has floated up to insane)