Thinking About a Boat

Which, of course, might be an option for the OP...is renting an option, or maybe a local marina has a posting for someone looking to share?

The rental rates are high enough that we'd never go. I also think a partnership in a boat would go like a plane, probably not for me. However we'd most want non-peak days, so might work.
 
If you want to imagine what flying would be like without the FARs, go boating in any popular body of water on a nice summer weekend. The stupidity you will witness is outstanding. Sure, there are rules for boating, but I bet 90% of the people out there either don't know there are rules, just don't care, or are too drunk to care.

This is why we'd aim for off-peak times.
 
If you get a good day and the right boat you can fly like a rocket.

One of the guys at the club has a Melges E-scow. On a good wind day, I'm first in line to crew on that bad boy. The power boat guys drop their jaws when that thing gets up on plane. It is an "E" ticket ride!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSyOmYyMsY

At about 0:40 she steps up on plane and starts to go.
 
If you want to imagine what flying would be like without the FARs, go boating in any popular body of water on a nice summer weekend. The stupidity you will witness is outstanding. Sure, there are rules for boating, but I bet 90% of the people out there either don't know there are rules, just don't care, or are too drunk to care.

Agree. I just give them a wide berth.

When I was in the Navy, we learned the rules of the road, and we also learned the law of gross tonnage!
 
If your schedule allows for off-peak usage, you will absolutely love pleasure boating. I used to take split shifts back when my kids were young and we would get to the lake on Wed night, and come home on Friday just when the lake traffic picked up. So peaceful, ski anytime you want, no waves, etc.
 
I also like the boat+jetski idea, but not today. That would be fun when kids get a few years older. Right now, need something big enough that everyone can fit on and be a "one size fits all" type. Plus, not enough parking space.
 
Because we don't own enough unreliable vehicles, we're thinking of adding a boat into the mix.

Actually, it's more because with our one 2 year old (and twins on the way), going on our friend's boat last weekend was quite fun, and we think it might be a fun diversion that we'd be able to do for amorning/afternoon with small kids, and continue to enjoy further.

Of course, I want a twin. :D But I'm not sure it's mandatory so much as iLikeTwins. ;)

Our driveway space is limited, but we can fit a 20ish ft boat w/trailer in a corner without getting in the way I think. We have a 1/2-ton Avalanche, so that's about right for towing it anyway. Likely don't want something bigger due to cost and storage concerns, not to mention not wanting to buy a bigger truck just for a boat.

I really have no idea what I'm looking at. General mission thought would be that it would be nice to get something that has the ability to tow a tube or skis. It seems like a cabin area would be nice (especially for kids having naps or needing a bathroom break), but it seems the boats with cabins have virtually no deck space. Definitely not looking at a "go-places" boat, more the $100 hamburger sort since I don't like $100 hamburgers in planes. The twin engine jet ski types also look like fun, but probably be something we'd outgrow in a few years, and might even be too small to start.

Curious as to thoughts. Maybe a cabin sounds nicer than it would really be, especially if it makes it hard to be on deck. Also figuring that needs could change, so I'm not opposed to buying something and upgrading later. With vehicles I tend to just buy what looks interesting and then buy something else later if my needs change.



Lots of potential, what's the budget? Cabin can be done, but it comes at a cost. You don't need much, but you want something to stash the kiddo out of the sun and weather. Many boats have a covered bow that can suffice. If you get into the 23' boat, most of which tow just fine behind a light pick up, you can get a couple of amenities to use it in camping mode as well and still have reasonable deck space.

For safety and efficiency I suggest you go with a modified twin, real main engine of 190+HP and a 15hp kicker 4 stroke outboard as a "come home" engine. With a twin you won't maintain plane on one, so using two big engines unless you want the top HP of both doesn't serve any great advantage and increases your overall costs.

For cost and reliability reasons I would use a straight inboard drive setup. This gives you a modified automotive engine, probably a Velvet Drive transmission, a shaft out through a simple gland that you tighten or repack occasionally to keep the water out, a strut with a simple cutless bearing and a simple taper socket prop. It gets no simpler or more reliable. Trouble is these rigs are not that common anymore, but most of your competition style boats still have them. Correct Craft, an excellent manufacturer used to make a nice 21' that had reasonable space for a simple cabin, high gunwalls, and a straight drive off a SB or BB Chrysler. It would also make a great platform to put a Diesel in since you can work right in the middle of the boat.

The more common drive you'll find is an IO with a geared z leg at the transom. Everything that happens will cost $2500 now a days. Change the boots and lube every year and U-joints every 5 and you shouldn't have much trouble unless you hit something or neglect the anode. The fastest way to cost yourself a lot of money with an out drive is to do a bunch of high power hard turns or start the engine in the full or trailer tilt range. You'll eat u-joints prodigiously and when you lose one it typically shreds the boot which may or may not fill the boat with water while you are sitting there broke down. Not exactly where you want to be. The advantage they have over outboards is again they use a marinized auto/pick up engine.

Outboards used to be a good deal because they were cheap and easy to replace. Still easy, not cheap, a 300hp outboard costs more than your 300hp IO-520. In the 4 stroke - 2 Stroke debate, I'll take a 4.

The big loss risk factor for your maint $$$ it hitting things below the water.
Direct drive, $750, Outdrive $2500, outboard, $1500-$7500 depending what all breaks.

Your big loss risk factor for human tragedy is the prop, and I won't deign it with a $ figure.

Now there is one more drive that mitigates both of those factors and that is a Jet Drive. As with any insurance though, it comes with a premium, and that premium is a 15% cost in efficiency translating torque to thrust.

Personally having seen what I have seen over the years, if I wanted a family boat for fun and water sports, the only drive I would have is a jet pump, plus it opens up shallow sluices and river mouths for use.

You can pick up any Inboard or Outdrive hull and make it a jet with new or salvage parts simply. The outboard hulls will likely take a bit of work making engine beds, but not a biggie, or you can get a Jet leg for many outboards that affixes a pump as the lower unit.
 
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As with planes, think of your mission. You're gonna have the kids, and the diapers, and some baby food, and life vests, cooler with drinks, and blankets, water, beer, some clothes, etc. Once you get it all on the boat, you are gonna want to stay out for a full day. Then, it becomes overnight, and finally you are out all weekend, and holidays too. It's just not worth all the setup and teardown to go out for an afternoon, plus the driving to and from the lake. That's why these weekender boats are setup the way they are. They know you are gonna want to get out of the sun and lay down for a while. This is also why I said gets lots of ground tackle. Eventually you will need it all.

The other thing is, once you get out on a serious lake, you have what you have, and if you don't have it, you don't have it. Want a corkscrew? Take it. Need matches? Better have them onboard. Trashbags? Sunscreen? condoms? Did you forget them? DOH! You aren't going back to shore to get stuff, so make a check list, and keep up with the essentials.

I see where you're going with this and why you recommended this boat, but for me, simplicity is key. With the 25ft sailboat, I had in inboard diesel, fuel system, cooling system, electrical system, water system, propane gas, etc.etc.etc. I hated maintaining crap I hardly used anyway.

When I sold and looked for a power boat, I went for simplicity. Minimal systems, proven power unit (Merc 4.3 MPI with Alpha). We have a 15 minute drive from home to lake, and the dry storage is perfect for us. I call as we leave the house, and the boat is dockside when we arrive. At the end of the day, tie up and cover the boat, and the dock crew puts it on the fork truck and into its slot.

Easy peasy. When I was sailing, I observed the following: the amount a boat was actually used was inversely proportional to it's size and complexity.
 
Easy peasy. When I was sailing, I observed the following: the amount a boat was actually used was inversely proportional to it's size and complexity.

Exactly my thought, and what I'm trying to avoid. I don't see us spending a weekend out there, more like 1/2 or 1 day.
 
Build one in your garage! I'm sure there are experimental boat kits too! :goofy:


;)

YES! A larger industry than Homebuilt aviation by far. Lots of plans and kits out there. Plus there are molds laying around all over the place that you can rent, borrow, or buy to lay one up in. If you are inclined to build something, Ruell's got some nice plans up for Sharpie style hulls. http://www.parker-marine.com/parker2_1.htm

Sharpies are efficient, stable, shallow draft, and easy to build fair. The same hull design principle works throughout the size range.
 
V-drive for an in-shore, shallow water use is asking for trouble. Besides, it reduces your potential choices to almost custom built, specialty boats. Just stick with a Alpha or Bravo drive. Leave the Casale or Velvet drives to 30' + boats going offshore. The worst mess I ever had was a Lenco 2 speed to a Casale in a 24' speedster. Never again.
 
I don't see us spending a weekend out there, more like 1/2 or 1 day.

We pack a cooler with lunch/water/drinks/beer. If we decide it's a nice evening and want to stay out later, we hit one of the four decent lakeside restaurants that are within a 20min cruise of where we usually hang out.

Again, simple is easy, and easy is fun.
 
Exactly my thought, and what I'm trying to avoid. I don't see us spending a weekend out there, more like 1/2 or 1 day.

It 2-4 years you will.

Here's how it went with us. We had a 21' Shiada jet boat. Were out at the lake with our kids around 6-ish on a beautiful summer day. All we had was a cooler, some lunch meat and life vests with a few towels, and a carry-on potty. No one wanted to go in, we all took a swim and decided right then that we would just make the best of it on the couches down below, and the kids were on the vests we laid out on the floor.

As the sun went down, the lake quieted, the water calmed, the cool air came in, and then darkness, and the stars lit up. The kids woke up around 10 and we all laid up front on the deck and watched meteors, and satellites go by. We talked about all kinds of things, read a story by flashlight, my kids got their first taste of being away from the city, and running water, and TVs, computers, games, phones, etc. I knew right then that this was the way to raise a family.

Heck, it didn't even need to be on a boat, but the nice thing about that is you can't walk over to the arcade, or the restaurant, or watch the game, or a thousand other distractions. It was the Family Moment that people search for, and I found it in the middle of lake Isabella, on a summer night in June. We went for another late night swim, had a snack, and bedded down. Next morning, no one had tooth brushes, so we cleaned our teeth with some paper towels, and I made a mix up of chopped bass and hot dogs on the grill. We stayed out until 3, and I vowed to get a boat with more amenities. Sold the Shiada and bought a Seaswirl Sable 22', which was the best boat I ever had, except for the darn OMC drive POS.
 
Exactly my thought, and what I'm trying to avoid. I don't see us spending a weekend out there, more like 1/2 or 1 day.

Even at that, you want a minimum shelter. An interesting solution that I like with bow rider and platform boats is the bow tent. You need to be able to get the kiddo out of the sun and hail, even on small lakes and such weather can be brutal and turn quickly as you know, and relentless sun isn't much fun either. Even a Bimini top is at least some shade.

Here's something in your region, you're in Ohio right?

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/197...-2573020/Mentor/OH/United-States#.U_Oq7MsaySM
 
I love boats, big surprise.

Buy a quality hull just like an airframe , Cobalt and Four Winns are not the same.

Have a used boat surveyed, bad stringers, transom, etc. can be VERY expensive to fix. I/O boats especially.

Dock maneuverability sucks in a big single without a bow thruster. I would want C/R props on a single I/O.

Power, just like an airplane more is better. Pulling a full size man up on a single ski with a small 4.3 powered cuddy, would be funny to watch.

If you will be on a ANY rough water, get something with a good ride.

Buy a bigger boat than you think you need.

Test any boat where you plan to use it.

+1 on Shade, not an option, get a BIG Bimini.

Here is a boat I would like for your mission and able to pull with a half ton.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Cobalt...5758b91&item=201149746065&pt=Power_Motorboats

Or a Searay cuddy, or plenty of other good choices.
 
After you get your boat maybe you can give us an objective comparison of airplanes vs. boats for the family toy. :)

Family 'toy' there is no comparison, far more utility and use for your family dollar, hence why boating is a huge industry and GA tiny.
 
So regarding the brands, I have no idea which ones are good. What are brands to avoid and brands to look at? Home built I don't see having time for now, but a project of needing some mechanical work I'm not afraid of.
 
Get a proper boat

DSCN9246.JPG


Or if you're more the sporty outdoors type a hurricane, can actually get these cheap on govliquidations just need a little TLC

Zodiac-CZ7-UAB.jpg


Or if you're just trying to pick up chicks a Donzi always works well for that.

256390_p_t_640x480_image03.jpg
 
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Have two boats and a plane ,like to keep the oil company's in the green. Enjoy both sports. With the boat ,do my own maint. And can sleep on it over night. Jump in the waters fine.
 
So regarding the brands, I have no idea which ones are good. What are brands to avoid and brands to look at? Home built I don't see having time for now, but a project of needing some mechanical work I'm not afraid of.

Need a budget to name a brand. Quality comes at a price, but if you're a day boat user in the Midwest the required quality, and expense, is not that great. Yo looking at $5k, $15k, $25k?:dunno:
 
Get a proper boat

DSCN9246.JPG


Or if you're more the sporty outdoors type a hurricane, can actually get these cheap on govliquidations just need a little TLC

Zodiac-CZ7-UAB.jpg


Or if you're just trying to pick up chicks a Donzi always works well for that.

256390_p_t_640x480_image03.jpg

Three boats with $100k price tags.
 
So regarding the brands, I have no idea which ones are good. What are brands to avoid and brands to look at? Home built I don't see having time for now, but a project of needing some mechanical work I'm not afraid of.

Ruh-roh, now you're fishing in dangerous waters. Everyone has their own brands they like, and dislike. I'm no fan of Bayliners, but I've owned two, and they were fine for in-shore lake use on weekends. Right now I have a WellCraft Excel, and it's ok. The hulls are pretty much all going to surface crack no matter the builder if it's left outside all year. The Merc is the same, no matter what it's in. Here's a list I have personal experience with, in my favorite order.

Glastron-Carlson; SeaSwirl; Donzi; Wellcraft; Boston Whaler; Sea Rey; Bayliner; Shiada; Sleekcraft; Lavey Craft; Larson; Galaxie; Kona; Ebbtide; Four Winns;

Others will have a different opinion. Also, boat builders have good years, and bad years, and have been sold and gone BK over time. So, a current boat builder may not make as good a product as they used to back in previous days.


<edit: grab up that yellow and gold CV-23 and put some new springs on the trailer, and a marine long block. Get some oversized canvas for it, and it will last for a good 10 years.>
 
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If you go into the cuddy to change a poopy diaper, well you deserve everything you get! I just hang them over the gunwale by the wrist and dunk them up and down a few times. Towel off, powder, diaper and good to go. Best not to be going more than ~40-ish when you dunk them. :D

ROFL!
 
So regarding the brands, I have no idea which ones are good. What are brands to avoid and brands to look at? Home built I don't see having time for now, but a project of needing some mechanical work I'm not afraid of.

I didn't research a huge amount of brands, but it is hard to go wrong with well known brands like Sea Ray.

We came across a 2 year old Bryant 210 with 25hrs for $25k, the guy was wanting to sell quick. Equivalent new was $40k.

What I liked about the Bryant was: high quality hull, 100% fiberglass (no wood), 100% hand laid. The carpet, vinyl, seats, etc., also seem to be of high quality. I also like that the factory is only 70mi from us and they have a very good rep for customer service.

I figure you buy a good hull for a lifetime, and like a good airframe, re-engine as necessary over the years.
 
was: high quality hull, 100% fiberglass (no wood), 100% hand laid.

I know nothing about boats. I am just about the only person on this island that can say that. :lol:

So, please 'splain to me why "hand laid" would be better than "machine built"? Wouldn't it be better to have a boat hull vacuum-formed in a giant machine?
 
I know nothing about boats. I am just about the only person on this island that can say that. :lol:

So, please 'splain to me why "hand laid" would be better than "machine built"? Wouldn't it be better to have a boat hull vacuum-formed in a giant machine?

This brings up a lot of rather contentious issues. FG boats in the late 50s - 80s were made with hand laid materials. The air could be worked out and the resin was usually a bit thicker than needed because a thin resin coat was useless, so it typically was a little on the 'rich' side for safety. If you google fiberglass chopper gun, you will see what the entire industry(except some special cases) went to in the mid 70s or early 80s. The chopper gun method was faster, and could be adapted to production line methods, it used less resin, and the glass came out in strands of about 5-20 inches.

I won't go into detail, but as you might imagine, they don't have the same strength as bidi, or unidirectional fiberglass mat. But, they were cheaper, and lighter, and faster to build. Some mfg used hand laid for the bottom hull, then grafted chopped onto the sides, and the cap, which is the section above the rub-rail. Some made the whole boat out of chopped glass. In the early days, it didn't take long for a chopped glass boat to start coming apart at the seams or corners.

Nowadays, 'hand laid' is the standard for high end boats, but I think you would find that even a hand laid boat has a chopped glass cap above the rub rail.
 
This brings up a lot of rather contentious issues. FG boats in the late 50s - 80s were made with hand laid materials. The air could be worked out and the resin was usually a bit thicker than needed because a thin resin coat was useless, so it typically was a little on the 'rich' side for safety. If you google fiberglass chopper gun, you will see what the entire industry(except some special cases) went to in the mid 70s or early 80s. The chopper gun method was faster, and could be adapted to production line methods, it used less resin, and the glass came out in strands of about 5-20 inches.

I won't go into detail, but as you might imagine, they don't have the same strength as bidi, or unidirectional fiberglass mat. But, they were cheaper, and lighter, and faster to build. Some mfg used hand laid for the bottom hull, then grafted chopped onto the sides, and the cap, which is the section above the rub-rail. Some made the whole boat out of chopped glass. In the early days, it didn't take long for a chopped glass boat to start coming apart at the seams or corners.

Nowadays, 'hand laid' is the standard for high end boats, but I think you would find that even a hand laid boat has a chopped glass cap above the rub rail.

Seriously? In 2014, there are still guys hand-laying strands of fiberglass in a mold?

With all the boats being sold (everyone here has at least one, I swear), I was envisioning some giant, industrial version of my old "Vaccuform" toy that I had when I was ten years old. Something maybe the size of a large garage, into which you would inject hot plastic/carbon fiber/whatever, and bake it into a nice, single-piece, entirely waterproof hull.

Instead, there's "Bob" sitting there laying in one-piece of fiberglass strand at a time, followed by some goop? Really?
 
Seriously? In 2014, there are still guys hand-laying strands of fiberglass in a mold?

With all the boats being sold (everyone here has at least one, I swear), I was envisioning some giant, industrial version of my old "Vaccuform" toy that I had when I was ten years old. Something maybe the size of a large garage, into which you would inject hot plastic/carbon fiber/whatever, and bake it into a nice, single-piece, entirely waterproof hull.

Instead, there's "Bob" sitting there laying in one-piece of fiberglass strand at a time, followed by some goop? Really?

Plenty/most of boats are made in a mold. It's actually called a 'plug'. Some are hand-laid into the mold, some are chopper gun. The plug makes the shape, not the construction method.
 
I know nothing about boats. I am just about the only person on this island that can say that. :lol:

So, please 'splain to me why "hand laid" would be better than "machine built"? Wouldn't it be better to have a boat hull vacuum-formed in a giant machine?

Hand laid means there are sheets of woven and roven materials making up the entire hull. The other process uses a chopper gun that feeds ribbons of glass strands into the gun along with metered resin an catalyst that you spray in the mold to make up 95% of the hull then you hand lay in woven and roven in areas that need strengthening. As long as properly done, either is fine. What is more important is what type of resin, polyester, vinylester, or epoxy, what type of core material: open cell or closed cell foam, ply or balsa wood. Then there is the vacuum bag or not factor. If it's epoxy, what process? Autoclave or not? Dry or wet?

There are a ton of factors involved in quality and each factor has a compounding price tag. As with aviation, most of your costs come with accessories. You can get the boat equivalent of a Fly Baby or an A-380.
 
Need a budget to name a brand. Quality comes at a price, but if you're a day boat user in the Midwest the required quality, and expense, is not that great. Yo looking at $5k, $15k, $25k?:dunno:

At this point, under $10k is the likely budget. Like to stay closer to $5k, but may be hard to accomplish.
 
Oh, there are no "machine built" boats, they are all hand built once you get past the kayak and canoe stage.
 
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