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Archimago

Archimago

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Archimago
So I have been actively looking for my first plane for while now and have finally settled on a Grumman AA5. I joined the Grumman Gang and have received great assistance. I have a handful of planes that I am considered with another pilot. There are two planes that are the same price.

One plane has a 160hp engine but has had some periods of inactivity(i.e not flown for 2 years before August compressions in the low 70's), has original instruments for IFR but no GPS.

The other plane has a 150hp but flys regularly and has a garmin 400 non waas with adsb out. If it came down to these two planes which would you choose?

I am wanting to fly this plane with another passenger and 60 lbs of dogs in the back with luggage from California to Florida, Mississipi, and Wisconsin. Would I miss the 10 hp?
 
… This would be a trip in the summer
 
You’ll always miss horsepower, and 150 is pretty limited. If I were looking at an AA5 (and they’re exceptional airplanes), for traveling, I’d go straight to the Tiger.

Btw, if the Garmin 400 is a non-WAAS gps, it cannot legally provide the position source for the ADS-B out. Some ADS-B devices have their own WAAS-enhanced GPS. If your prospect’s does not, it cannot be a legal ADS-B out.
 
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Was the plane that sat treated with CamGuard?
 
SCCutler said:
You’ll always miss horsepower, and 150 is pretty limited. If I were looking at an AA5 (and they’re exceptional airplanes), for traveling, I’d go straight to the Tiger.

Btw, if the Garmin 400 is a month-WAAS gos, it cannot legally provide the position source for the ADS-B out. Some ADS-B devices have their own WAAS-enhanced GPS. If your prospect’s does not, it cannot be a legal ADS-B out.
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Owner says he will add a Garmin GDL 82 to go with existing Garmin transponder.
 
These were sold as a Traveler, Chetah and Tiger at one time. The Tiger vastly outsold the lower hp models. 180 hp is what you want both for performance and resale.
 
Clip4 said:
These were sold as a Traveler, Chetah and Tiger at one time. The Tiger vastly outsold the lower hp models. 180 hp is what you want both for performance and resale.
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Problem is that "Tiger" can be twice the price of the traveler/cheetah.

The Traveler/Cheetah is fine if you consider it a 2 seater, or on some occasions a 3 seater. Just don't try to put 4 adults in it.

You have to be VERY careful with planes that sit, and especially planes like these with the o-320 that sit. o-320s are great engines, but they don't sit well.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
Problem is that "Tiger" can be twice the price of the traveler/cheetah.

The Traveler/Cheetah is fine if you consider it a 2 seater, or on some occasions a 3 seater. Just don't try to put 4 adults in it.

You have to be VERY careful with planes that sit, and especially planes like these with the o-320 that sit. o-320s are great engines, but they don't sit well.
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I read this silliness often, buy this plane because it’s half the price. It’s half the price for a reason, few people want the lower hp versions and when you go to resell the plane you have to find a buyer who is willing to accept a poor performance model like you did.

if you then do upgrades, you really take a beating.
 
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Archimago said:
Not that I am aware of.
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Yikes, Lycoming O320 that sat for 2 years unprotected? I guess the next question to ask is where did sit for 2 years. If the answer is Tucson, maybe it's OK. If New Orleans then run away!
 
Clip4 said:
I read this silliness often, buy this plane because it’s half the price. It’s half the price for a reason, few people want the lower hp versions and when you go to resell the plane you have to find a buyer who is willing to accept a poor performance model like you did.

if you then do upgrades, you really take a beating.
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And with that mentality, we'd all own million dollar + aircraft. I mean, why not? You will get 10x the aircraft with 10x the resale, by your logic.
 
Weekend Warrior said:
And with that mentality, we'd all own million dollar + aircraft. I mean, why not? You will get 10x the aircraft with 10x the resale, by your logic.
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No, we all wouldn’t own 1 million dollar airplanes, but when basically the same airframe has 100% more value (your claim) with a 12% cubic inch increase in displacement, that tells you a lot.
 
Clip4 said:
No, we all wouldn’t own 1 million dollar airplanes, but when basically the same airframe has 100% more value (your claim) with a 12% cubic inch increase in displacement, that tells you a lot.
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Economic choices might be "silliness" to you with all the CFI bank you're making, but my aircraft is just a small portion of my life, but a big portion of my play money. I can totally understand not spending twice as much money for 12% more displacement, if you don't need it (which was my original point).
 
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Weekend Warrior said:
Economic choices might be "silliness" to you with all the CFI bank you're making, but my aircraft is just a small portion of my life, but a big portion of my play money. I can totally understand not spending twice as much money for 12% more displacement, if you don't need it (which was my original point).
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You could make the peanuts required for that simple up grade by working part time as a line guy dude.
 
Clip4 said:
I read this silliness often, buy this plane because it’s half the price. It’s half the price for a reason, few people want the lower hp versions and when you go to resell the plane you have to find a buyer who is willing to accept a poor performance model like you did.

if you then do upgrades, you really take a beating.
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Although that may be true, not all of us can afford a better plane for 2x as much, and there will always be people like myself who just want to get into a plane and would be absolutely thrilled to have a traveler. I would love a tiger... who wouldn't, but....
 
asicer said:
Yikes, Lycoming O320 that sat for 2 years unprotected? I guess the next question to ask is where did sit for 2 years. If the answer is Tucson, maybe it's OK. If New Orleans then run away!
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Pennsylvania in a hangar.
 
Clip4 said:
You could make the peanuts required for that simple up grade by working part time as a line guy dude.
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I think that's true for some people, but I work full time job plus a part time one and also fly. Some of us have families and not seeing your family so you can work your second job on a flight line...so you can go faster and climb better when flying.
 
Archimago said:
I think that's true for some people, but I work full time job plus a part time one and also fly. Some of us have families and not seeing your family so you can work your second job on a flight line...so you can go faster and climb better when flying.
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If you are raising a family maybe you can’t afford an airplane.
 
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Archimago said:
I think that's true for some people, but I work full time job plus a part time one and also fly. Some of us have families and not seeing your family so you can work your second job on a flight line...so you can go faster and climb better when flying.
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I paid cash for my warrior. I would have LOVED a Cherokee 6, but a lowly warrior fit my mission, and I liked that it was newer for less money. Could I have saved, maybe working another job even though I work two already, to get a 6? Sure! But the warrior does what I want and I’m fine with it.
 
There are those wonderful people skills again.

clip may have a point, despite his rude way of saying it.

any airplane is a compromise unless you are a Bezos type with infinite funds. There’s always a cheaper one and a more expensive one. You can not buy, and end up being one of the many that stop flying or buy one you can’t afford, have it break not be able to afford to fix it and end up not flying or buy one you can afford, but it doesn’t fit your mission so you end up not flying.

buying a plane is a difficult proposition for normal humans. I got lucky and found a plane priced right that I thought I couldn’t afford, but nothing bad happened and I could afford it and have been able to grow into it.

My advice is to buy what will keep you flying. Even if it’s not perfect.
 
Archimago said:
How bad is that? no really, I am in California, I know it snows in PA but is it humid and does the hangar help?
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Hangar helps, but I'd still keep enough money in reserve to replace the engine. Hopefully you'll get a pre-buy with someone who knows how to boroscope Lycomings.
 
I looked at both a Cheetah and a Tiger. While I ended up buying a Tiger, a case can be made that the Cheetah is the better bargain. You get ~94% of the cruise speed (127 vs 135 kt) and probably 90% of the useful load, but at only 60% of the cost. In my 200 hours in the Tiger, I think I've only flown 6 hours with four adults in the plane. Otherwise the Cheetah would have done just fine.

That said, if you are flying in high density altitude areas I'd want as much HP as possible for the airframe. At max gross, on a hot day, the Tiger takes awhile to get off the runway and I can imagine the Cheetah is even worse.
 
So if the 150hp is theoretically in better shape, how much am I going to miss the 10hp on a long cross country near gross?
 
In cruise I wouldn't think you'd miss the extra 10HP at all. As far as takeoff and climb, look at the POH tables for the likely altitude, temperature, and runway length of your en route airports. Add a safety factor of 50% for runway length, and look carefully at the required climb for departure obstacles. I flew the Tiger from California to Maryland via Albuquerque. Leaving Double Eagle in New Mexico, I was only seeing about 600 ft/min on departure, and that was on a cool day in December at somewhat less than max gross.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
In cruise I wouldn't think you'd miss the extra 10HP at all. As far as takeoff and climb, look at the POH tables for the likely altitude, temperature, and runway length of your en route airports. Add a safety factor of 50% for runway length, and look carefully at the required climb for departure obstacles. I flew the Tiger from California to Maryland via Albuquerque. Leaving Double Eagle in New Mexico, I was only seeing about 600 ft/min on departure, and that was on a cool day in December at somewhat less than max gross.
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Traveler, Chetah, Tiger. SL @ IAS. 2200# MTOW 660 fpm vs 830 fpm vs 2400# MTOW 1060 FPM. The Traveler performance chart warns of a 7% decrease for high humidity and gives no method to determine rate of climb at non standard temperature, but in a 88F humid summer day in the flat lands 375 fpm decreasing with pressure altitude is the reality
 
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