the road to my (your?) own LearJet

N747JB said:
JG here's your new airplane, why mess with common old Lears, when you can fly like The KING!! :yes::yes:
http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CONVAIR-880/1960-CONVAIR-880/1334219.htm
http://www.controller.com/listingsd...EED-JETSTAR/1960-LOCKHEED-JETSTAR/1334205.htm
Buy one or buy them both, you will be flying in style and they are cheap to buy as well!! They might require a little attention on the mechanical side of things, but nothing that a man of your means can't handle! :D
Click to expand...

Interesting. I wonder what they are thinking for a number on the 880 or the pair. I seriously doubt anything near $600k would be a considered offer. I wonder why Graceland is selling them off. I think they are hoping someone is going to come up with stupid level money due to the provenance, and it might, his fan demographic includes some real rich collectors who can drop $5 million on it and $5 million to get it flying, or stick it in a museum.

More likely we'll hear about it hitting one of the big luxury market auction houses.
 
N747JB said:
JG here's your new airplane, why mess with common old Lears, when you can fly like The KING!! :yes::yes:

Buy one or buy them both, you will be flying in style and they are cheap to buy as well!! They might require a little attention on the mechanical side of things, but nothing that a man of your means can't handle! :D
Click to expand...

Very interesting. Yes, that would be very fitting for me to own the plane that transported The King. Just the thought of that brings a tear to my eye, what a glorious validation that would be for me and triumphant announcement of my official arrival into the non-virtual aviation world after my complete and undisputed owning of the simulated aviation world.

This is a magnificent way to end this thread. There will now be no more discussion on this topic. Everything that needed to be said has now been said. I regret that most of what many of you have said has been ignored due to the lack of value or any kind of intelligent reasoning behind your comments. However with time and with your association with higher quality individuals like myself eventually some of it may rub off on you.

Administrators please lock this thread.

Thank you.
 
John Galt said:
Very interesting. Yes, that would be very fitting for me to own the plane that transported The King. Just the thought of that brings a tear to my eye, what a glorious validation that would be for me and triumphant announcement of my official arrival into the non-virtual aviation world after my complete and undisputed owning of the simulated aviation world.

This is a magnificent way to end this thread. There will now be no more discussion on this topic. Everything that needed to be said has now been said. I regret that most of what many of you have said has been ignored due to the lack of value or any kind of intelligent reasoning behind your comments. However with time and with your association with higher quality individuals like myself eventually some of it may rub off on you.

Administrators please lock this thread.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

John, good luck with your struggles
 
FastEddieB said:
I have nothing to say on this topic, which was manufactured for the sole purpose of stirring things up.

But I don't like to be told by some obvious troll when I can enter a discussion.

Discuss.
Click to expand...

I think internet forums are a place for many, suffering from mental illness, to express themselves and vent.
 
Henning said:
Interesting. I wonder what they are thinking for a number on the 880 or the pair. I seriously doubt anything near $600k would be a considered offer. I wonder why Graceland is selling them off. I think they are hoping someone is going to come up with stupid level money due to the provenance, and it might, his fan demographic includes some real rich collectors who can drop $5 million on it and $5 million to get it flying, or stick it in a museum.

More likely we'll hear about it hitting one of the big luxury market auction houses.
Click to expand...

I can get you a great deal on Carrie Grant's Lodestar. It does need a little work though...
 
::goes in thread, looks around, runs away::


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
This John is a supercilious wannabe. Or, as Bugs would say, an absolute maroon.
 
I'm starting to believe Pflemming/Jgalt/Hocky etc are a moderator here. There is no decently moderated forum in the world where an obvious single-source troll would be allowed to mess around this long.

Come on mods, fix it.
 
I will tolerate no more posts on this thread. The next poster will be banned. You have been warned.
 
Wow...I havent looked at this thread in more than a week and looks like the majority of the discussion went downhill pretty fast.

Its odd that so many of you are presumably aircraft and flying enthusiasts but when someone else shows interest in it, suddenly they are a troll because its a jet or because its a very complex and expensive process. Even more amazing is your lack of awareness of how obviously threatened you must be to react that way. This goes above and beyond even the worst youtube comments I've read. Even the high school kids know when they are just sounding butt hurt and ego bruised.

Would you tell the same things you are telling me to your son or daughter who sees a jet and says they want their own and want to fly it? Would you say things like "not happening" to their face? Why would you tell an adult that who has a much better chance of making it happen?

My goal is to own and operate my own jet. If I have to explain that to anyone, then maybe you don't really like planes or flying and should question your career and hobby choices. Maybe I'll hate a small jet for some reason, but I'm betting I'd like it. I don't have to have all the answers or know all my reactions to something to discuss it on a forum.

I can't imagine why anyone could see LearJet's going for $75k and not at least daydream about the possibilities, especially if you are already a pilot and fly, but I guess some of you are just dead inside or so bigoted that your plane and your piloting experience are the only ways that make sense. Maybe if you didn't see yourselves as so limited you wouldn't be so apparently bitter about other peoples dreams of flight.

Now to be fair, there have been several people in this thread who have provided thoughtful information and I greatly appreciate it. You are what makes the internet worthwhile. All forums have different ratios of you to the "junk". If you want to see nearly 100% junk check out the Jeep and Corvette forums.

So, I've done a little more thinking, and not much more research. I had an epiphany basically.

What I want here is to somehow get it so I can own my own jet and fly it fairly regularly. And I'd like to do it as safely, quickly, and inexpensively as possible. The old discount LearJet's may have gotten my attention, but it does sadly seem like they may not be the optimum way to accomplish this. I dont like how they look with the hush kits, and the insane fuel burn rates really bug me. It does seem pretty realistic that they would quickly become more expensive than buying a modern jet would be at a higher price tag initially. No, I have not done the full calculations. Or maybe with passengers its a wash. I dont know. But that argument seems pretty solid.

Its too bad because the huge climb rate is exciting (6800ft/min), and the speed (545mph) and altitude (51k?) are pretty awesome. I find it a little hard to believe that all the old LearJets are literally going to be crushed and turned into soda cans unless you put on the hush kits or pay insane fuel rates. I bet someone will figure out a way to breathe new life into them (engine swaps?).

That said, what I'm trying to do here has actually been done many times. What it really is is simple starting your own private jet charter company. The difference is that I'm saying I want to start it before I'm even a pilot. But other than that, the costs and complexity is pretty much the same. Its the same thing. You can make a profit chartering a jet, obviously, so this apparently can work out.

The silver lining to all this is that I would be shooting for just paying off the jet and the training, and not really beyond that. Lets say its $1mil for the jet (Epic Victory?) and $200k for the training and everything else.

So now you have a jet, your legal to fly passengers in it, and you owe the bank $1.2mil.

To pay it off you start flying people. I'll make up some more numbers: you charge your passengers an average of $5000 for a cross country flight. You make lets say $2500 profit. So you need about 500 flights to pay it all off. Throw in a fudge factor of 2..so lets say 1000 flights.

So if we assume $1.2mil gets you a VLJ/MicroJet and training, can you make it back in 1000 flights as a private jet charter company? Thats the real question here. "Business plan for starting your own private jet company using a VLJ/Microjet".
 
You need an FAA part 135 operating certificate to do this. There are lots of requirements. It's a major headache/paperwork nightmare.

Easier way to reduce costs would be to get a partner.
 
JGalt said:
That said, what I'm trying to do here has actually been done many times. What it really is is simple starting your own private jet charter company. The difference is that I'm saying I want to start it before I'm even a pilot. But other than that, the costs and complexity is pretty much the same. Its the same thing. You can make a profit chartering a jet, obviously, so this apparently can work out.

The silver lining to all this is that I would be shooting for just paying off the jet and the training, and not really beyond that. Lets say its $1mil for the jet (Epic Victory?) and $200k for the training and everything else.

So now you have a jet, your legal to fly passengers in it, and you owe the bank $1.2mil.

To pay it off you start flying people. I'll make up some more numbers: you charge your passengers an average of $5000 for a cross country flight. You make lets say $2500 profit. So you need about 500 flights to pay it all off. Throw in a fudge factor of 2..so lets say 1000 flights.

So if we assume $1.2mil gets you a VLJ/MicroJet and training, can you make it back in 1000 flights as a private jet charter company? Thats the real question here. "Business plan for starting your own private jet company using a VLJ/Microjet".
Click to expand...

This isn't like running a lemonade stand. You don't just buy $5 worth of lemons and sell $10 worth of lemonade and have $5 left over as profit.

You'll need to hire staff. You'll have substantial legal, regulatory, and insurance costs. You'll need realistic numbers for operating costs, customer acquisition, maintenance, and so forth. It's not something you are going to do as the owner, operator, and sole pilot with no experience in the field.

Of course you can make money flying jet charters. You just have to look at it as a large, capital-intensive business with high barriers to entry. It's not something you do to pay off your personal flying.

But then, I shouldn't continue to feed this thread...
 
Henning said:
Interesting. I wonder what they are thinking for a number on the 880 or the pair. I seriously doubt anything near $600k would be a considered offer. I wonder why Graceland is selling them off. I think they are hoping someone is going to come up with stupid level money due to the provenance, and it might, his fan demographic includes some real rich collectors who can drop $5 million on it and $5 million to get it flying, or stick it in a museum.

More likely we'll hear about it hitting one of the big luxury market auction houses.
Click to expand...

The story I read some weeks ago is that the planes are NOT owned by Graceland or Elvis Presley Enterprises or whatever entity controls that place. The planes were parked there under mutual agreement some years ago to offer fans a chance to see them as a part of Elvis's Graceland exhibit, and in my opinion, that is the proper place for them.

Fast forward to current times, the Graceland owners have decided that the real estate being used by the planes will be more profitable as a hotel (and maybe casino?) and thus the planes are getting the boot. Quite a shame, really.

Hopefully they will survive the next transportation and get a good refurb and new home somewhere. It would be hard to reproduce that much gaudy interior today, and I'd hate to see it go away lest we forget. :D
 
Lear 35's are barely chartering anymore...there is definitely no market for a 25. Not to mention it would be a maintenance nightmare. Every time you fly, things will break. A 25 will need anywhere from 50 to 250,000 in maintenance each year. Here are some other yearly figures:

Hangar: 24,000
Pilot Salaries: 150,000
Training: ~30,000
Insurance: 15,000
Staff to run a Charter Company: ???

So lets say you have a year with 150k in MX. That's $369,000 total costs. Lets say fuel and engine reserve is 1500 bucks and it goes out at 2200 an hour. A decent charter plane will do 300-400 hours a year, a 25 will not. Lets say you have a great year and do 200hrs....that means you bring in 140k from charter. You are still 229,000 short. You would have to do 527 hours to even break even which a 25 will never do.

But again even if you did buy one, refurb it, go through the long and expensive process of forming a charter company.....no one is going to charter a 25, it will simply become a huge expense.
 
KSMooniac said:
The story I read some weeks ago is that the planes are NOT owned by Graceland or Elvis Presley Enterprises or whatever entity controls that place. The planes were parked there under mutual agreement some years ago to offer fans a chance to see them as a part of Elvis's Graceland exhibit, and in my opinion, that is the proper place for them.

Fast forward to current times, the Graceland owners have decided that the real estate being used by the planes will be more profitable as a hotel (and maybe casino?) and thus the planes are getting the boot. Quite a shame, really.

Hopefully they will survive the next transportation and get a good refurb and new home somewhere. It would be hard to reproduce that much gaudy interior today, and I'd hate to see it go away lest we forget. :D
Click to expand...

Hotel/Casino sounds likely, so I guess whomever the owner of the planes is doesn't want to deal with moving them?:dunno:
 
JGalt said:
Wow...I havent looked at this thread in more than a week and looks like the majority of the discussion went downhill pretty fast.


My goal is to own and operate my own jet. If I have to explain that to anyone, then maybe you don't really like planes or flying and should question your career and hobby choices. Maybe I'll hate a small jet for some reason, but I'm betting I'd like it. I don't have to have all the answers or know all my reactions to something to discuss it on a forum.

So, I've done a little more thinking, and not much more research. I had an epiphany basically.

What I want here is to somehow get it so I can own my own jet and fly it fairly regularly. And I'd like to do it as safely, quickly, and inexpensively as possible. The old discount LearJet's may have gotten my attention, but it does sadly seem like they may not be the optimum way to accomplish this. I dont like how they look with the hush kits, and the insane fuel burn rates really bug me. It does seem pretty realistic that they would quickly become more expensive than buying a modern jet would be at a higher price tag initially. No, I have not done the full calculations. Or maybe with passengers its a wash. I dont know. But that argument seems pretty solid.

Its too bad because the huge climb rate is exciting (6800ft/min), and the speed (545mph) and altitude (51k?) are pretty awesome. I find it a little hard to believe that all the old LearJets are literally going to be crushed and turned into soda cans unless you put on the hush kits or pay insane fuel rates. I bet someone will figure out a way to breathe new life into them (engine swaps?).

That said, what I'm trying to do here has actually been done many times. What it really is is simple starting your own private jet charter company. The difference is that I'm saying I want to start it before I'm even a pilot. But other than that, the costs and complexity is pretty much the same. Its the same thing. You can make a profit chartering a jet, obviously, so this apparently can work out.

The silver lining to all this is that I would be shooting for just paying off the jet and the training, and not really beyond that. Lets say its $1mil for the jet (Epic Victory?) and $200k for the training and everything else.

So now you have a jet, your legal to fly passengers in it, and you owe the bank $1.2mil.

To pay it off you start flying people. I'll make up some more numbers: you charge your passengers an average of $5000 for a cross country flight. You make lets say $2500 profit. So you need about 500 flights to pay it all off. Throw in a fudge factor of 2..so lets say 1000 flights.

So if we assume $1.2mil gets you a VLJ/MicroJet and training, can you make it back in 1000 flights as a private jet charter company? Thats the real question here. "Business plan for starting your own private jet company using a VLJ/Microjet".
Click to expand...

You posted in this thread yesterday....

Your best bet to getting in a jet and flying it is going to be one of the Epic jets. It will be a while before you qualify to fly passengers in a charter service with it which is fine because you'll need the time for charter insurability as well, you'll need 1500hrs.

Many many many people have done exactly what you want to do. 99% went broke doing it. Lot more to the charter business than having a plane and flying it. You have to get clients, and more importantly you have to retain clients. That means no unscheduled down time. It's also going to take a bit to get a Pt 135 Air Taxi Operator certificate, including commercial/charter insurance.
 
Mason said:
THIS might be credible regarding the planes.
Click to expand...

:rofl: Now things are starting to make sense. If they really do want that property for a hotel/casino this could be interesting. Could just build the casino around the planes. Stranger accommodations can be seen in Manhattan.
 
Fix what? This thread is awesome. If it fails to amuse you, don't click on it.

I too have eyeballed the old jets and daydreamed. If the originator is to be believed he has the $$$ to put one back in the air. I say go for it! You only go around once. I've never bothered looking into the details or costs but I know if it was even halfway "practical" or affordable more people would be going it.

mtuomi said:
I'm starting to believe Pflemming/Jgalt/Hocky etc are a moderator here. There is no decently moderated forum in the world where an obvious single-source troll would be allowed to mess around this long.

Come on mods, fix it.
Click to expand...
 
These threads are fine. Yes, everyone day dreams about a jet, and there are always changes in the readers and the market that make these threads informative because people with direct knowledge of current reality speak up, and are entertaining because people with mental health issues speak up. :lol:
 
Henning said:
You posted in this thread yesterday....

Your best bet to getting in a jet and flying it is going to be one of the Epic jets. It will be a while before you qualify to fly passengers in a charter service with it which is fine because you'll need the time for charter insurability as well, you'll need 1500hrs.

Many many many people have done exactly what you want to do. 99% went broke doing it. Lot more to the charter business than having a plane and flying it. You have to get clients, and more importantly you have to retain clients. That means no unscheduled down time. It's also going to take a bit to get a Pt 135 Air Taxi Operator certificate, including commercial/charter insurance.
Click to expand...

Epic is bankrupt and sued out of existence. A Russian company bought it and says they are gonna only produce the Epic E1000 turpoprop and certify it. Thats supposed to happen next month. The only way to get an Epic jet is to buy one that has no support used.
 
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CTLSi said:
Epic is bankrupt and sued out of existence. A Russian company bought it and says they are gonna only produce the Epic turpoprop and certify it. Thats supposed to happen next month. The only way to get an Epic jet is to buy one that has no support used.
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Epic made the twin jet that Dayjets used right? If not, which one was that? That's the one I'm thinking of. Twin turbofan 6 seat with glass deck issue that you have to assess carefully at to what it's capable of and isn't as there are a few itterations.
 
Henning said:
Epic made the twin jet that Dayjets used right? If not, which one was that? That's the one I'm thinking of. Twin turbofan 6 seat with glass deck issue that you have to assess carefully at to what it's capable of and isn't as there are a few itterations.
Click to expand...

No, that was Eclipse. And it is possible to get an Eclipse pretty cheap if you get one of the ones that is on the older avionics. There was a really good thread on another board (Beechtalk I think?) about it.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
No, that was Eclipse. And it is possible to get an Eclipse pretty cheap if you get one of the ones that is on the older avionics. There was a really good thread on another board (Beechtalk I think?) about it.
Click to expand...

Ahh, sorry, my error, Eclipse. They seem to be a decent deal even with the upgrade avionics and apparently there are people flying them without RVSM getting climb throughs from the sounds of it with no great hassle.
 
Henning said:
Ahh, sorry, my error, Eclipse. They seem to be a decent deal even with the upgrade avionics and apparently there are people flying them without RVSM getting climb throughs from the sounds of it with no great hassle.
Click to expand...

Eclipse just layed off their whole crew. They delivered one production plane and folded up yesterday.

Eclipse Blames Layoffs on Sluggish VLJ Sales
 
CTLSi said:
Eclipse just layed off their whole crew. They delivered one production plane and folded up yesterday.

Eclipse Blames Layoffs on Sluggish VLJ Sales
Click to expand...

That may make the existing ones even cheaper. The other decent low price option would be a Citation I or II SP with the Sierra conversion. For more money, longer legs, and (hopefully) reduced operating costs there is the Sino Swearingen SJ-30 with a pair of William's FJ-44s. Morgan Freeman has one.
 
That's sad about Eclipse.

Mason Holland was a Cirrus owner who's effort to bring the company out of bankruptcy and provide a real VLJ product are to be lauded. I did not realize that they were now in such dire straits.

Like I said, sad.
 
Henning said:
That may make the existing ones even cheaper. The other decent low price option would be a Citation I or II SP with the Sierra conversion. For more money, longer legs, and (hopefully) reduced operating costs there is the Sino Swearingen SJ-30 with a pair of William's FJ-44s. Morgan Freeman has one.
Click to expand...

Real risky to buy a plane from a company that no longer exists, can get pretty expensive when things break.

I would LOVE to see a VLJ around a million bucks. But it looks like the deep pocket companies are the only ones ready to lose money for a number of years making these things. Like Cirrus and Cessna.

Even a good turbo prop is too expensive. Most of us looking for new who dont want to mortgage a house to fly solo pilot VLJ will have to wait till someone makes one a LOT more cost effectively and mission applicable.
 
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CTLSi said:
Real risky to buy a plane from a company that no longer exists, can get pretty expensive when things break.

I would LOVE to see a VLJ around a million bucks. But it looks like the deep pocket companies are the only ones ready to lose money for a number of years making these things. Like Cirrus and Cessna.

Even a good turbo prop is too expensive. Most of us looking for new who dont want to mortgage a house to fly solo pilot VLJ will have to wait till someone makes one a LOT more cost effectively and mission applicable.
Click to expand...

The big risk with the Eclipse is that panel. That would scare me away because it's not as easy as dropping it off at the Avionics shop and putting in a bunch of Garmin stuff and picking it up a month later. Our intrepid Mr Galt wouldn't let such trivialities hold him back though, he has no fear.
 
Those Sierra conversions are tempting, especially for a 501, much bigger cabin than a CJ, fast, fuel efficient, single pilot:yes:...........................still a 35 year old jet.:no::no::D

Henning said:
That may make the existing ones even cheaper. The other decent low price option would be a Citation I or II SP with the Sierra conversion. For more money, longer legs, and (hopefully) reduced operating costs there is the Sino Swearingen SJ-30 with a pair of William's FJ-44s. Morgan Freeman has one.
Click to expand...
 
N747JB said:
Those Sierra conversions are tempting, especially for a 501, much bigger cabin than a CJ, fast, fuel efficient, single pilot:yes:...........................still a 35 year old jet.:no::no::D
Click to expand...

How old is the Conquest? :popcorn::D
 
There has been at least one company that proposed to hang Williams engines on the Lear 25. The obstacle that they were never able to over come was when all was said and done, you could buy a Lear 35 for what the conversion would cost. It's pretty tough to overcome economic obsolescence. The King is dead, long live the King.
 
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