the road to my (your?) own LearJet

The reason the old Lears are so damn cheap is because nobody wants them. There are plenty of people running around in private jets, but you'll see, they're not older Lears and the cost to purchase is considerably higher.

That said, they are a hell of a lot cheaper to operate over time. If you really want a jet an old lear isn't going to be what you want.

I suggest you learn to fly (which will be in a small single) and see if you like it. You'll start to see what kind of airplane you really want after you have some hours under your belt.
 
It's a fun thread to read. My won-the-lottery daydreams stop at King Air. Aim high! If you want a LearJet, buy one.
 
My lottery jet would be the SJ-300. All the load I need and long legs.
 
Hey guys, at one time way back I had thoughts along the same line myself. So, I looked at what could be done, vs was should be done to get in the seat and push the levers forward.

Required for a Lear 24/25:
Buy the plane, presuming it is currently airworthy;no RVSM, no hush kit, with some time remaining on engines and 12 year cycle - $350,000

Ab-initio; Train from nothing up to twin rating; no comm, no IR, just H/P, twin, complex via the rental route - $25,000

Type cert in YOUR Lear 20 series(note, this assumes you could even find a CFII willing to put his name in your logbook with no IR, comm); est 30 hours @ $2000/hr - $60,000

Co-pilot/aircraft crew chief - $45,000/annual.

You are now flying your own Lear 24/25 from some limited airports to some other limited airports in the CONUS under 18k'. If the Co-pilot has his IR, we could even go up to 29k' and not worry about RVSM. But - you are now the captain of that Lear Jet out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Xq2KEDAnY

Now, before you go off on my list remember first that this is what COULD be done, not what should be done. Also, within the next 10 months I would say the op-ex budget will be a fixed $2 mil and a variable of maybe another $1 mil.
 
Richard said:
How far back into your non-CFI career would you have to go to find $30-50/hour is attractive?
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Not sure what you are getting at but I don't think I've ever gotten paid by the flight hour in my non-CFI career.

It seems to me that even a few years ago Learjet contract pilots were getting in the neighborhood of $500/day.
 
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There's also the 91.501 stuff to contend with, I believe. ("turbojet-powered multiengine civil airplanes of U.S. registry")
 
Everskyward said:
It seems to me that even a few years ago Learjet contract pilots were getting in the neighborhood of $500/day.
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And if I knew the contract involved babysitting some owner-pilot in a dirt cheap Lear, I'd be charging over double that. :mad2:

:)
 
kayoh190 said:
And if I knew the contract involved babysitting some owner-pilot in a dirt cheap Lear, I'd be charging over double that. :mad2:

:)
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So would I... no, I wouldn't do it at all. And I have a LR-JET type rating and a few thousand hours in them.
 
Bobanna said:
Troll alert. Looks to me like someone has been watching too many old James Bond movies. OP has no certificates or experience...just a wild fantasy about ripping around in a personal jet with vintage sex appeal. I admire the thoughtful and incisive advice offered by fellow accomplished aviators, but feeding the trolls is a total waste of oxygen and kind advice. It is an insult to read the blather about having an A&P certificate to "save" on maintenance (let's not even discuss the shop, tools, and experience needed to "wrench" an obsolete 23/24 Lear. The details are obviously interfering with this exercise in auto-eroticism. Blessings.
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I guess they're too small to warrant a refurb and a better set of modern engines and panel?:dunno: How worn out do these airframes get?
 
Henning said:
I guess they're too small to warrant a refurb and a better set of modern engines and panel?:dunno: How worn out do these airframes get?
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I think by the time you upgraded the engines and avionics, you'd have spent $2-3 million bucks.:dunno: I think the Beech Jet/Hawker 400 retrofit is priced at $3+ million! and it's 20 years newer than a 23/24/25 Lear.;)
 
Well... this was a depressing read. What a bunch of dream-killing wet blankets you all are. :p

I daydream about LR-JETs all the time. Other than the 2-pilot requirement and the "every departure is a fuel emergency" concepts, I think it'd be a neat way to dispose of 600k in surplus cash. I imagine a person could get a hundred or so jet hours that way. I think it would be real amusing to do the PPL initial in a typed aircraft like this.

Still cheaper to rent though.. The L39 advice was well-placed. 90% of the thrill, only ~20% of the cash. :)
 
I suppose the OP is a troll, but on the other hand there are people out there, including young Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, who could pull this off without much of a strain on the bank account.
So if a Learjet turns you on, why not?
I might suggest a Lear35A if one likes the LJ look. With it's fan jet engines you avoid the noise issue and have much better fuel flows down low. Many already have RVSM hardware and can be found with many years to go on the 12 year inspections. There's plenty of mid time engines for sale out there too. Most will still have all those great analog gauges everywhere.
Training from zero to an LRJET type rating is doable for someone with the motivation, time and money.
Got to admit that piloting a 24 or 25 is like flying a fighter. However a 35 might be the OP's solution. :D
 

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When I was in the Air Force I participated in some Lear Jet flying that was done by Flight International and latter Phoenix Air. I actually have logged USAF EWO time in the Lear 35!

The Lear 24s were just like Mig-21s, they were fuel emergency shortly after gear up. I guess if you flew one on an IRBM trajectory you could go somewhere, but not if you wanted them to mill around at medium altitudes.

The Lear 35, on the other hand, was a terrific airplane! Long range, fast, sexy, and cheap (by Air Force standards anyway).

If the OP is real (which I doubt) then I'd suggest that he take his $600K to Phoenix Air in Cartersville Georgia. Give it to their CEO Mark Thompson and tell him you want to fly Lears for a few years.

He'll get you up to speed and probably let you be a copilot eventually. If you're lucky you can fly Ebola patients around!!
 
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Well, that's the internet.

For all we know, that was Eddie Van Halen we were talking to..... or some other billionaire rock star or just a moron in his Mom's basement.

It was fun to dream though ... :rollercoaster:
 
txflyer said:
Well, that's the internet.

For all we know, that was Eddie Van Halen we were talking to..... or some other billionaire rock star or just a moron in his Mom's basement.

It was fun to dream though ... :rollercoaster:
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Nope, a troll with an agenda. Google "Who is JGalt?" From the Peoples Republic of California.

Edit: I am not the OP by BTW, I just read the book
 
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Question for the Gallery;

How well would a turbo twin like the King Air fill the OP's needs instead of proposed Lear Jet?

After riding to Gaston's and back in Dave S's King Air, I can say that I found it as nice as any limo ride in terms of comfort. And watching Dave fly it in and out of Gaston's multiple times showed me that there are very few places it won't go. It's easy to see why some business folk would chose the King Air for their travel.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Question for the Gallery;

How well would a turbo twin like the King Air fill the OP's needs instead of proposed Lear Jet?
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Proposing to own and fly a twin turboprop isn't nearly as good a troll as proposing to own and fly an obsolete Lear...
 
I'm pretty sure we're talkin' to the same OP here as the guy who supposedly video taped his practical exam to the dismay of the (fictitious) DPE.

Carry on, folks, carry on....
 
I scaled back my dream machine to something less than a twin turbo prop. I went down to the Aerostar, something I can actual put hands on.
 
JHW said:
Because the OP is not actually going to do anything remotely like this. Of he were, he wouldn't be trolling on internet boards about it, ,he would be doing it.

I know someone who did exactly that. He chartered a flight for a trip, it was in a cheyenne. He decided he liked it so he called up piper for a referrel, hired a recommended instructor as an employee, hired an agent and bought a plane, and learned to fly in his airplane as they used it for trips. After a couple year's of trips he cut the instructor loose. It worked out well for him. Point is he just did it. He didn't ask 1000 questions about it, while working in thoughts combining poverty, business jets, and cost sharing with his other rich friends.
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I don't keep up who's who on the inner webz.

When I first responded to this thread I was thinking exactly how that someone you know did it. That's how I would do it.
 
dans2992 said:
He could start with any plane he wants, you are right.

You disagree that "self-insurance" is "rolling the dice"? How so?
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I disagree that self provided bond is an untenable solution of risk management. I argue that such self-insurance can be a viable means to that end.
 
StinkBug said:
I think his point was that most people qualified to do the job he is describing could make considerably more than that elsewhere. It's not that a certain amount is attractive, it's that a higher amount is more attractive.
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First of all, IIRC, my comment to which you respond was directed to Mari. Mari is a woman. Son, don't make that mistake again. :D

Gauging by my own admissions, if I were a CFI and was contacted by the OP I would love to be involved in the project of bringing the applicant from zero to hero in his privately owned Lear.

I know CFIs who do earn (as opposed to demand) $50/hour or more. Warbird classics to Technically Advanced Aircraft, these CFIs have exploited a niche in which their services are in demand. I gather many such persons, if not all, would jump at the project. The project would not be full time thereby allowing the CFI to service his existing accounts and to remain active within the normal stream.

Side note: Ref: the 'normal stream'. There is the condition that one becomes so involved in a specialized project that they become invisible to the normal, garden variety source of work to the degree that the specialized project acts to remove them from the general source of income stream. At the conclusion of the project one may find themselves having to devote significant effort to again capture market share. There is increased financial risk to the service provider attendant to such projects. Therefore, any specialized project would be billable at a multiplier of the normal wage. It is incumbent upon the individual to exercise discernment before accepting any project. I suspect only one who has 'been there' will understand what I just wrote.
 
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Henning said:
Could, in today's economy that's a pretty big could.
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Ain't that the truth. For the past several years I tell people one or both of two things; do not quit your job, and, for the first time in my history, (to the young people) do not join the military. This economy is flat lined or at best shows an irregular heartbeat. And our foreign policy sucks eggs. Incompetent fools in the house.
 
champ driver said:
Hey, I'm just asking a simple question on whether he really needs, or just wants a jet.
I see people all day long that can afford to fly around in jets, that's their business and this is America, so that's fine with me.
You're the one bringing politics into this discussion, not me.
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Yeah, I guess I was hard edged in my response. My apologies. My reference to Al Gore was about 'carbon footprint'. Your comment, it seemed to me, was that a guy flying his old inefficient smoke trailin Lear was enough to sound the alarm of the tree huggin folk.
 
DFH65 said:
Beat me to it. :D

You could order one of these today.
JSX-2_Twins_5808-366.jpg

http://www.sonexaircraft.com/subsonex/index.html
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Tomato soup can nailed to the backside? Sign me up! I'll take two! Wait, those aren't soup cans, they are window mounted 1960s air conditioning units.
 

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evapilotaz said:
waiting for OP response.

Are you guys feeding the troll :nono:
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So what? Do you not admit that this was vicarious daydreaming? The closest to a jet I would want would be a gas turbine PC-9. With hardpoints, of course. Um, I mean an A-10.
 
3393RP said:
Although Munson's death is a parable about the dangers of being a low time pilot in a complex aircraft, he made the same mistakes many pilots in much more mundane aircraft have made and died from.

Munson had jumped into a Duke before buying the Citation, so he was definitely fast tracking it. I think he had a little less than 200 hours in the Duke when he bought the jet. He had about 25 hours in the Citation when he took his piston CFI and another guy for a ride. Like a teenager in a 172, he had to show off his skills.

They made a couple of T&Gs before Munson decided to do a no flap landing. I seem to recall a runway change was also made. On final he got slow, didn't monitor his airspeed, and failed to account for the spoolup delay. The aircraft crashed short of the runway.

If Munson had exercised a little more self discipline he wouldn't have attempted the no flap landing. I always thought it was a really odd thing to do. I guess he wanted to impress his piston CFI by doing something out of the ordinary and that one one of the few tricks he had learned in just 25 hours of flying the jet.

The CFI survived the crash, that's how we know the details of the failed approach. The instructor said Munson had done very well in the Duke, and in terms of work load flying the Citation probably wasn't much more difficult than the Duke.
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So was the impetus for 91.126(c). For years it had mystified me why that part was added. AOPA couldn't answer my question. Queries to the FAA bore no response. It was only on POA that I learnt why.
 
dtuuri said:
No, I'm not. In fact, back when I was flying around in those planes at EJA I was heavily into roller skating in my spare time. Recently went back to it and I'm one of the younger ones at the sessions! Next to flying airplanes, there's nothing like doing the flea-hop, Northeast Ohio style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQW-Gi_QtIc
Now, if I can just remind my feet how to do it without falling on my bony hip again! :redface:

dtuuri
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Oh, stop. You're killing me. That video was everything I imagined it to be BEFORE I even clicked on it! BTW: I loved doing that stuff ('stuff' only so as to not give away what the vid is about) :yes:
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
Remember, all commercial airliners are 737s, unless they're really big, in which case, they're a 747. All private jets are LearJets. All small private propeller driven aircraft are Cessnas.
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The year was 1970. I was at Honolulu airport with family to see my mother's sister fly in from Chicago. A behemoth rolled in to the terminal. I had read about this new airliner. Now seeing it for the first time I was even more impressed. As a 12 yr old kid who knew everything about space and aeronautics like every kid in those days, I uttered a prescient, 'that will be obsolete before I ever fly on one'. I've flown on every jet variant of DC, L-1011, jungle jet, every Airbus (except A-380) and every Boeing except one. To this day I have yet to fly on a 747.

Can you imagine deplaning a 747 on airstairs?
 
Richard said:
Oh, stop. You're killing me. That video was everything I imagined it to be BEFORE I even clicked on it! BTW: I loved doing that stuff ('stuff' only so as to not give away what the vid is about) :yes:
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Hey, there's a reel #2 y'know. Anybody from Arizona who's been to a Diamondbacks home game might recognize the organist at the three minute mark, Bobby Freeman. Both our organists, he and Johnny Sharp, have been 'stolen' by Arizona. :(

dtuuri
 
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Attention daydreamers: If you wanted to learn to play the piano, would you start off by playing Mozart? Think about it... :)

dtuuri
 
Richard said:
So was the impetus for 91.126(c). For years it had mystified me why that part was added. AOPA couldn't answer my question. Queries to the FAA bore no response. It was only on POA that I learnt why.
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91.126(c) is about noise.
 
StinkBug said:
I think his point was that most people qualified to do the job he is describing could make considerably more than that elsewhere. It's not that a certain amount is attractive, it's that a higher amount is more attractive.
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True. Instructing the persona who started this thread and managing their Learjet would not be something I would do for that price (or any price), and I can almost guarantee most people who are qualified to do it would not either, at least not for more than a couple days. I have watched people with far more experience than zero time make their first takeoffs and landings in a Lear and that was exciting enough. I remember my first takeoffs and landings...
 
Everskyward said:
True. Instructing the persona who started this thread and managing their Learjet would not be something I would do for that price (or any price), and I can almost guarantee most people who are qualified to do it would not either
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Absolutely - just thinking about it gives me a good case of the howling fantods.
 
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