The Pt 61 IFR Long XC

LoLPilot

LoLPilot

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I'm doing my instrument rating Part 61 and I'm working on potential routes for the 250 nm cross country with my instructor. This looks like it's going to be between a 2 and 3 hour adventure. Any suggestions on the flight? Planning it? Making it more fun (spending 2-3 hours in a skyhawk, under the hood, in April, flying around Southern Illinois)?
 
Make sure you get the 3 seperate approaches planned out, so that if you return home and the wind has changed you can still complete it. Around here, that means leaving the GPS for last in case the ILS goes out of service.

Find somewhere with a good DME arc on a VOR approach if you don't have one locally, or on a LOC/ILS if available.

Have fun.
 
ja_user said:
Make sure you get the 3 seperate approaches planned out, so that if you return home and the wind has changed you can still complete it. Around here, that means leaving the GPS for last in case the ILS goes out of service.

Find somewhere with a good DME arc on a VOR approach if you don't have one locally, or on a LOC/ILS if available.

Have fun.
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That's a good point. I will either be stopping at, or going past, a Class C airport so I was thinking I'd try to do my LOC/ILS there. At my home field we have RNAV or a VOR approach, and the VOR is on the way in the general direction I'll be coming back from so I could always do that VOR approach. Then save the GPS for the smaller airport that is likely to be stop number 2.
 
Most of my IFR students comment that the XC is their most enjoyable part of the training. It is "Real World" where banging out local approaches is a little less so, but required to efficiently get the proficiency required.
 
Do it on a real IFR day! I did, although it wasn't exactly planned that way. I had a trip I needed to take, but weather didn't cooperate. Luckily my CFII was available, so we just used the opportunity to check off the XC while completing the mission.
 
Plan on more than 2-3 hours. You probably aren't going to fly the approaches at cruise speed. There will be some course reversals probably as well.
Mine was 4.4 hours in a Warrior. (280nm) Did it at night, with some actual, and almost died - twice.
 
I did mine in August 2016. Last week, I thanked my CFII yet again for making it a real experience. That’s how much I enjoyed doing what we did, by far exceeding the minimum requirement. The confidence I gained in using my airplane to actually go somewhere was priceless. The route was over 600nm and required a fuel stop. The first approach was the ILS, flown downwind without landing because the runway it served was being rebuilt. The second was a VOR circle to land since the main runway at that airport was also being rebuilt. There, we got fuel and took off at high DA with full tanks. The third was an LPV, from which we “broke out” of the foggles and flew VFR through a valley to our destination. I logged 5 hours under the hood, 3 approaches at airports I had never been to before, and a lot of time at the service ceiling of my plane since the MEA and DA were both that high. We talked to three different Centers (Minneapolis, Salt Lake, and Denver).

Definitely don’t just do the bare minimums. Expand your envelope a little so your actual IFR flying later on isn’t the first time you find out how far you can go.
 
I did two of them, good stuff. First was in an SR 22, bed to hfd to rut to bed. Got a late start so ended up at rut in the dark in light snow. I learned a lesson about the importance of checking out ODPs and climb gradients, when flying out of rut in the dark with light snow, the reality of sitting on that runway, knowing there are mountains nearby I couldn't see drove the lesson home. After that take off ATC asked us to climb to 9,000 feet, through an icing layer. So I saw rime ice form and tks stop it. (fiki bird). It was a great experience, only advice I have is in the heat of doing it don't forget to take it in.
 
You folks have some awesome stories!

@EdFred - you’ve got to tell me more about this!

@iamtheari - I would like to do an all day one if possible and do a stop for lunch, etc. My school is both part 141/61 so the instructors are usually on really tight schedules. I had to book this last month and have my instructor for 5 hours. I’ll basically need to come in with my flight plan made, let him take a look, and then get going.

@PaulS - I want to go fly out west someday. I’m sure that pucker factor of doing IFR in the mountains is huge and my instructor and I have talked about it. I asked him one day “here the minimum sector altitudes and the approach segment altitudes are kind of just suggestions. Like you can’t bust them, but really you can because the fixes and altitudes are more just getting you lined up and giving you a stabilized descent.” And we talked about how if I ever do go fly out west that some of those approaches are “do or die” when it comes to accuracy. We only have one like that here and it takes you through a little notch in the Mississippi River bluffs. He had me fly it one day and had me at minimum altitude on a fix when he said “foggles off.” He took the plane and flew while I took the hood off and told me to look where the gear was and I was surprised to see that between 1/4 and 1/2 a mile I’m either direction you are trimming trees with your gear if you get low. He said every approach in the mountains is like that or worse.
 
Don't make it "just" a training flight. Fly somewhere for lunch or dinner. Fly to a museum. Work something out with your CFI, maybe there's somewhere they want to go too.

It should be fun!
 
LoLPilot said:
You folks have some awesome stories!

@EdFred - you’ve got to tell me more about this!

@iamtheari - I would like to do an all day one if possible and do a stop for lunch, etc. My school is both part 141/61 so the instructors are usually on really tight schedules. I had to book this last month and have my instructor for 5 hours. I’ll basically need to come in with my flight plan made, let him take a look, and then get going.

@PaulS - I want to go fly out west someday. I’m sure that pucker factor of doing IFR in the mountains is huge and my instructor and I have talked about it. I asked him one day “here the minimum sector altitudes and the approach segment altitudes are kind of just suggestions. Like you can’t bust them, but really you can because the fixes and altitudes are more just getting you lined up and giving you a stabilized descent.” And we talked about how if I ever do go fly out west that some of those approaches are “do or die” when it comes to accuracy. We only have one like that here and it takes you through a little notch in the Mississippi River bluffs. He had me fly it one day and had me at minimum altitude on a fix when he said “foggles off.” He took the plane and flew while I took the hood off and told me to look where the gear was and I was surprised to see that between 1/4 and 1/2 a mile I’m either direction you are trimming trees with your gear if you get low. He said every approach in the mountains is like that or worse.
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I'm on the East coast, the mountains out west are a whole different animal, but the mountains here are no less deadly if not respected. Rut is Rutland Vt. What I did was pick airports I hadn't been to and I would be a little nervous going in myself. On my second time around I flew into Teterboro, which was a great experience dealing with New York controllers. They were advertising the ILS approach, I wanted the gps approach, guess who lost that disagreement, about 8 miles from the final approach course no less. My instructor helped me get reset for that approach, I would have had to go into the penalty box were I by myself, but another important lesson learned, take what they are advertising in busy airspaces, life is easier that way.

So my advice is to do something you haven't done yet, maybe a bravo if it's not too expensive to land, definitely do a busy airspace to get a taste of it. It's great to expand your horizons.
 
Try and plan it for a real IFR day and pick up some actual time, it makes it much more rewarding! I just knocked out my Long XC last week and manged to clock up 1.7 actual and had a blast. Its completely different from flying under the hood.

Plus the views on top are awesome!

IMG-7188.JPG IMG-7190.JPG
 
It is a cross-country flight, so make sure you actually land at an airport more than 50 miles from the original point of departure. I haven't seen an examiner get hung up on this, but the examiner certainly could if you didn't actually land at any of the airports you shot approaches to other than when returning home.

FAR 61.1b(ii) - it isn't a cross country if you don't land more than 50 miles from your original point of departure.

Brian
 
It could be argued that a landing isn't required since 61.65 says...

(d) Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane rating must have logged:
(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems.

Cross country requirements for private/commercial specifically call out landings. This one does not.

Of course there's probably a CC opinion (which I'm too lazy to look up) that clarifies which side of the fence to be on.
 
EdFred said:
Cross country requirements for private/commercial specifically call out landings. This one does not.
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Doesn’t the definition of “cross country” that applies to the requirements of a certificate or rating require a landing 50nm away from the point of departure? Or does that only apply to the cross-country *hours* required?

I would land just to be sure. Re-doing requirements at the DPE’s behest when you show up for your check ride isn’t fun.
 
iamtheari said:
Doesn’t the definition of “cross country” that applies to the requirements of a certificate or rating require a landing 50nm away from the point of departure? Or does that only apply to the cross-country *hours* required?

I would land just to be sure. Re-doing requirements at the DPE’s behest when you show up for your check ride isn’t fun.
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I would land just because I don't want to be under the hood 4.4 hours without a break.
 
Break the flight up with a gas ,lunch stop. Remember to pick up the check for the Cfi. Flying under the hood gets boring quickly.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Do it on a real IFR day! I did, although it wasn't exactly planned that way. I had a trip I needed to take, but weather didn't cooperate. Luckily my CFII was available, so we just used the opportunity to check off the XC while completing the mission.
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+1 this.
We went early in the morning with planned approach to a field that was fogged in. No chance of getting down. Try to find some good IMC.
 
Skyrys62 said:
When you say 'actual'... are you referring to the posted pictures with no ground vis, or actually being in clouds with no vis at all?
I am just wondering out of curiosity.
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I’m talking about In the clouds with no vis at all. I thought being on top with no ground reference didn’t count as actual?

The pics were after we broke out on that XC. 3.4 total, 1.7 actual. Was a fun day.
 
Where is your departure airport?
 
@bill98 Departing out of KSET. I think we are looking at KSET > KTIP > KCMI > KSET. If I need another approach I also have KALN close to KSET.

I’ve flown twice in actual before. One was a xc that was IMC both ways. It was a humbling experience. I’m primarily getting the IR to be a safer, more precise pilot. I do not particularly enjoy flying IFR and I don’t anticipate doing a bunch of single pilot IFR flying unless I eventually do charters and stuff once I get Commercial. Primarily want to get commercial to do banner tows, maybe skydiving, and maybe instruction after going for CFI.
 
Have fun with it. Mine was in actuals for a lot of it and was an absolute blast! Last approach was a localizer to about 100 ft above minimums. Then flew the last 12 miles under the clouds since my plane didn’t have a gps to go ifr back to my home airport.

Now I fly with gps and it seems like cheating.
 
Skyrys62 said:
When you say 'actual'... are you referring to the posted pictures with no ground vis, or actually being in clouds with no vis at all?
I am just wondering out of curiosity.
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"Actual" generally means conditions in which you need the instruments to keep the shiny side up. On top might or might not be. Depends on the pilot and the type of conditions.

I personally don't consider flying in sunshine above a stratus deck "actual". Doesn't require more than VFR flight skills. BTDT.

I had some of that on my IFR dual cross country. Bad part was my instructor had the same opinion and had me put the hood on so I couldn't enjoy skimming just above the clouds.
 
Got it done today. If anyone wants to look at the route we flew KSET ELDON SPI EWITT SAYBA KTIP (rnav approach/landing) KCMI (ils approach/landing) BREMEN AXC SPI FASHE ELDON KSET (vor approach/landing). 4.1 hours total, 3.5 hours of hood time, approximately 290 nm. The 172 we were in had 7 hour cruise tanks so we only stopped to reconfigure and activate the next leg.

Afterwards my brain felt like jello. Everything went well for the most part. I suck at precision approaches lol so those were gnarly and that is what we are going to spend some time on next. My instructor said that my navigation was good and that my VOR approach was pretty good. I'm glad that monster is over, but it was a good experience and I feel like I accomplished something.
 
I just pulled up my long IFR XC. Looks like we were within 2nm of distance of each other on our XCs
4.4 total 2.9 night 0.4 actual 3.3 hood

We didn't have 7 hours of fuel. We were in a Warrior.
Yeah, think about that for a second.
And almost took out 2 deer when we finally landed around 1am. (Still have no idea how we didn't have puree all over the plane)
 
Alwyas check NOTAMs and also wind conditions. My IFR XC turned into a hilarious combination of destination changes when we kept running into closed ILS after closed ILS. Started with the only real DME Arc left around, at PRB, then went to BFL - ILS runway closed, did an RNAV. Got gas, went to VCV. ILS OTS, do so did the really hard RNAV there with a circle, at night. Then we planned to go to OXR before heading back to CMA, but OXR had an unplanned ILS closure, so we figured VNY. Nope, on 34, so no ILS. Finally it was ol' reliable BUR. Then back to CMA. Was a lot of fun.
 
The rules may have been different back in the dinosaur age, but I paired up with another IR/CPL student and his instructor. We flew a Mooney from Grand Forks, ND to NOLA for Madi Gras and back. Knocked out both our IR cross countries plus some CPL requirements (not sure what).
Anyway, if you’ve gotta spend the money, may as well make it fun!!
 
EdFred said:
I just pulled up my long IFR XC. Looks like we were within 2nm of distance of each other on our XCs
4.4 total 2.9 night 0.4 actual 3.3 hood

We didn't have 7 hours of fuel. We were in a Warrior.
Yeah, think about that for a second.
And almost took out 2 deer when we finally landed around 1am. (Still have no idea how we didn't have puree all over the plane)
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KSET typically doesn’t have deer because there are farm fields around it, but it IS in the flood plain so occasionally it becomes and island. You had a late flight!

N1120A said:
Alwyas check NOTAMs and also wind conditions. My IFR XC turned into a hilarious combination of destination changes when we kept running into closed ILS after closed ILS. Started with the only real DME Arc left around, at PRB, then went to BFL - ILS runway closed, did an RNAV. Got gas, went to VCV. ILS OTS, do so did the really hard RNAV there with a circle, at night. Then we planned to go to OXR before heading back to CMA, but OXR had an unplanned ILS closure, so we figured VNY. Nope, on 34, so no ILS. Finally it was ol' reliable BUR. Then back to CMA. Was a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

My instructor told me to watch for that. He knew about a GPS outage in the Midwest and when reviewing my plan said what if we only had GPS? Did you check the NOTAMS? Fortunately the outage was planned and it’s not till this week but he made a point for sure!

Kritchlow said:
The rules may have been different back in the dinosaur age, but I paired up with another IR/CPL student and his instructor. We flew a Mooney from Grand Forks, ND to NOLA for Madi Gras and back. Knocked out both our IR cross countries plus some CPL requirements (not sure what).
Anyway, if you’ve gotta spend the money, may as well make it fun!!
Click to expand...

KTIP was kind of cool for us. It’s built on a decommissioned Air Force Base. My instructor is retired Air Force and his dad was Air Force and he grew up in Rantoul. When I played football in high school we went to a training camp in Rantoul and stayed in the old officer’s quarters during camp, so I could see the old Base from our “hotel.” On the approach while I was under the hood he was saying how he could see his house from when he grew up, the Service road where his dad used to run, and other stuff in the town. He took a bunch of pictures during the approach and landing and he told me to go ahead and Call flight service to close our old plan and activate the new one and get reconfigured while he taxi’d. It was cool because we both had a bit of a connection to the town, but obviously his was much more intimate.
 
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