The need for speed?

stratobee

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stratobee
I'm not a speed freak by nature. I drive like a retirement home escapee on the freeway as a matter of fact. And I was quite content lumbering along in my old Commander at 140kts watching the world go buy (no, that's not a typo). The only real reason (besides the fact that it was starting to get hard to get parts for the old girl) for the Aerostar was that I could go 140kts on almost 50% less fuel compared to the Commander. An idea that really excited me as a big xc traveller. The top speed wasn't what got me hooked (OK, maybe a little...:wink2:).

But.

As I sit here booking yet another taxing business trip to the mother continent, I can't help but daydream about ways to do it in my own plane. If you've spent a lifetime at godforsaken airline hubs, smelled the stained and stale old wall-to-wall-carpets they always come with, suffered through colonic irrigations by blue gloved TSA agents, had your luggage sent to Katmandu, had a CBP officer interrogate you every time you come back to what's been your home country for years, constantly been downgraded to middle seats between obese people that snore or very small children - you know what I mean. Or faced yet another one of Delta/American/Uniteds old 757's with ash trays still in the arm rest (how long has there been a smoking ban on airlines? 25+ years? That's how long those seats have been in there). I wish I could just jump into my own ride and be done with it. And for about the same money and about the same time door to door. Inevitably, my mind drifts off into theoretical ways of solving this problem for humankind.;)

Flying time with the airlines this time will be around 20hrs not including above mentioned colonic irrigation. Sure, it would be easy to jump into that brand new Piaggio Avanti II that you paid cash for, going 405kts at 41000ft. Hell, I'd get there before the airlines, even with fuel stops. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money.

Then I remember Mike Arnolds old AR-5 he built over 30 years ago. 213mph on 2-stroke Rotax 65hp. And I think - why haven't we come a bit further?

http://www.ar-5.com

What this world needs is a super light, small 1 or 2 place aircraft, pressurised, de-iced, with great range that can fly high and get good TAS for not much fuel burn. A slippery little sucker. But there's nothing to be had.

Let's look at that lovely mozzarella the Piaggio Avanti II again. 405kts at 41000ft. How does it do it? Well, first of all it's slippery. Fine - we can do that. It also has a pretty narrow cross section and thin laminar flow wings. Aerostars share the same philosophy - get the cross section down and have thin, short wings and you'll get the speed. No problem, we can do that. The Avanti has 2x850shp PT6's. That's 1700shp for a 11500lbs ship, or 6.76lb/hp. Hmm, harder, but not impossible. But wait a minute, a TBM 850 has about 8.67lbs/hp (320kts) and an Aerostar 700 (260kts) has about 8.57lbs/hp. We can certainly do that with pistons. Don't think the TBM is much slipperier, but it does fly higher and has an engine that doesn't get asthmatic up high.

To be an alternative to jet airliners, we need an aircraft that does at least 300kts, ideally 350kts. From the above weight-to-power ratios, it's easy to see that we would need to get to somewhere around 7-8lbs/hp to be able to achieve that speed. I'm sure you've all heard of the Reno speed dragon, Relentless. It's a Sharp NXT kit build. From pilot Kevin Eldredge's website we can see that it's more than capable to do that - max speed is 380kts, high speed cruise is 350kts and economy cruise is 325kts. Jet speeds on avgas! As long as you minimise drag, you can get there. Take a look:

http://www.kevineldredge.com/Kevin_Eldredge/For_Sale/Entries/2009/8/14_2005_Nemesis_NXT.html

But here is finally my point - surely there must be a way, with todays technology, to build a very snug, small, narrow, reduced drag, 1 or maybe 2 seat slippery speed demon that could be an alternative to the airlines without breaking the bank? If Mike Arnold can go 185kts on 65hp, the Cassutt racers can go 200kts on 100hp, surely we should be able to get a single seater to +300kts on 200hp up high?

Wouldn't that be cool? Being able to beat the airlines door to door, for just about the same money (at least in fuel)? Tell me I'm not just a dreamer?
:D:no:
 
You want longer range - but that doesn't automatically mean higher speed.

What you need (okay, what I would prefer over your proposal) is a personal airship traveling at least 60 kts with a 3000 mile range that has 3 bunks, lavatory, and eating facilities to carry 4 people. So you have to dedicate 2 (or god forbid 3) days instead of 1 to traveling across an ocean. Big deal - in an airship you really should be able to travel in comfort.
 
But here is finally my point - surely there must be a way, with todays technology, to build a very snug, small, narrow, reduced drag, 1 or maybe 2 seat slippery speed demon that could be an alternative to the airlines without breaking the bank? If Mike Arnold can go 185kts on 65hp, the Cassutt racers can go 200kts on 100hp, surely we should be able to get a single seater to +300kts on 200hp up high?

Wouldn't that be cool? Being able to beat the airlines door to door, for just about the same money (at least in fuel)? Tell me I'm not just a dreamer?
:D:no:

Believe it or not, I'm not a speed freak either, I bought a 210kt airplane so I could loaf it at 3 miles a minute because I know there is always an exponential cost with any machine for getting the last bit of performance out of it. Even if I had 300hp engines, I wouldn't press the extra speed out of it. When I had my Midget Mustang, I had a modified IO-360 Lycoming in it putting out over 235hp, and it was a fine little commuter for me solo (and my cat the couple times he stowed on board) and would run right at 300kts, if I had put O2 in it and a turbo on it, I could have got it to 400 up high. Nice thing at 300 though was my commute was right at 2 hrs vs. the 7.5 it would take in my truck, 400kts though would still take an hour and half, plus require more considerably more fuel and power (weight), the increase of each a large portion would go to just supporting the increase.

That's the whole problem with trying to go fast, it's an exponential endevour in power requirements; and the things to make it slippery at high speed need to be changed for low speed, and those things get expensive, and heavy, requiring more HP & more fuel.... You get the picture. For small, light, affordable, *cough, choke* aircraft, you have to keep it light or it will discontinue be small and affordable quickly.

Pressurization and "light" have a struggling relationship to be in the same sentence at best, and very few have been successful at it. Out of them all, I'd choose the Lancair-IVP as it has the best performance. Once you put the turbine in it though, if you want a traveling machine, you now have to add the 'drop tanks' to under the wings to give it a useful range. I figured I would have gained very little practical return to go from the MM to the LA-4P.

You could already make the TransAt runs in your Aerostar, and Reykjavik has to be one of my favorite stops in the world.;):yes: Where you will see great improvement is with the availability of the 350hp Diesel engines.
 
Believe it or not, I'm not a speed freak either, I bought a 210kt airplane so I could loaf it at 3 miles a minute because I know there is always an exponential cost with any machine for getting the last bit of performance out of it.

A C310 is not a 210 knot airplane.

Even if I had 300hp engines, I wouldn't press the extra speed out of it. When I had my Midget Mustang, I had a modified IO-360 Lycoming in it putting out over 235hp, and it was a fine little commuter for me solo (and my cat the couple times he stowed on board) and would run right at 300kts

300 knots in a midget mustang?..........right. :rolleyes2:
 
Assuming you're comfortable with piston single reliability for crossing the Atlantic, then what you need is a Lancair IV-P with the some 350 gallon capacity that Bill Harrelson put into his IV. For efficiency make it a turbo-normalized 550 with high compression. Really we're there already, other than your 1-2 seat requirement. 270ish KTS is normal from these birds. And if you were able to make the hop non-stop from someplace like St. John's, Newfoundland, then it would be a pretty straightforward setup. If you could make it non-stop from Bangor, ME then you'd save more money on fuel - $12/gallon at CYYT last time I was there.

I agree with your general principle. I hate flying commercial and avoid it as much as possible.
 
What this world needs is a super light, small 1 or 2 place aircraft, pressurised, de-iced, with great range that can fly high and get good TAS for not much fuel burn. A slippery little sucker. But there's nothing to be had.


Wouldn't that be cool? Being able to beat the airlines door to door, for just about the same money (at least in fuel)? Tell me I'm not just a dreamer?
:D:no:

What you're describing isn't what the world needs, it's what you need, or want, or at least think you want. Are you sure you'd be comfortable sitting for hours on end in a small cockpit while wearing a cannula? Sure you want to go transatlantic with no available toilet?

Right now, you are just a dreamer. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't recommend sitting around and waiting for someone else to solve your problems. Go make it happen, and keep us apprised of your progress. This sounds like a fascinating project.
 
What you're describing isn't what the world needs, it's what you need, or want, or at least think you want. Are you sure you'd be comfortable sitting for hours on end in a small cockpit while wearing a cannula? Sure you want to go transatlantic with no available toilet?.

I might have tried it 40 years ago, but these days I would need a ship that could do 1,000 kts (or include a bathroom) to cross the Atlantic.
 
Empty Gatorade bottles work fine, at least for men. Pack a cooler and some good food for the trip. A co-pilot would be helpful for fatigue purposes.

Otherwise it comes down to personal preference. Most people would not prefer what is described, but there's no reason why it can't be done. Figure about $400k or so to build the IV-P around it.
 
What you're describing isn't what the world needs, it's what you need, or want, or at least think you want. Are you sure you'd be comfortable sitting for hours on end in a small cockpit while wearing a cannula? Sure you want to go transatlantic with no available toilet?

You're right - it's what I need!:D

I'd personally be happy to do it in a small twin if it was pressurised and de-iced. It has to be all weather, or else there's no point. Need dispatchability if one wants to compete with airlines, not only speed. Also, it needs to be able to fly high. High is the key to high TAS. At 41000ft you would have gained about 80kts just from the altitude alone, all other things being equal. Unrealistic with a piston and a pain in the rear to deal with all that RSVM compliance, so maybe 28000ft would have to be the compromise.

Long range is also important because it's the easiest way to make up time - no matter how fast your aircraft is, I've never managed to descend, refuel, pay, and climb up to same altitude again in less than 1hr. The fewer fuel stops you need to make, the more leg up you have. With long range, I can beat much faster aircraft.

Kevin2.jpg

Sure is pretty that Nemesis NXT. And fast.
 
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So you need a U2. As others said the self flown high performance market is tiny/nonexistent. If you can afford it and need it you can sit in the back then fly something cooler on the weekend.
 
But here is finally my point - surely there must be a way, with todays technology, to build a very snug, small, narrow, reduced drag, 1 or maybe 2 seat slippery speed demon that could be an alternative to the airlines without breaking the bank? If Mike Arnold can go 185kts on 65hp, the Cassutt racers can go 200kts on 100hp, surely we should be able to get a single seater to +300kts on 200hp up high?

Wouldn't that be cool? Being able to beat the airlines door to door, for just about the same money (at least in fuel)? Tell me I'm not just a dreamer?
:D:no:

I like the way you think. I hope there is someone out there working on what you, and others - possibly me would like to have avail.

But, and there is always a however, the laws of physics are immutable. The HP vs speed examples you give are quite telling. 185kts on 65HP. The next step is an improvement of 15kts, or 8% takes a HP increase of ~35%. If we take the next step up to 200kts, the increase in HP required(all other things being equal) would actually be around 300HP. Not un-possible of course, but speed costs money. It's the increase in drag, and despite the increase in altitude benefiting the lesser air density, the function in drag still exists.

It will be hard to find a power plant that is both economical to buy and operate that will work at the high flight levels. This is what has stymied most EXP builders and designers. Also, once you get past around 18k', there are physiological aspects that come in to play as well as wing reconfiguration for landing. All these factors make it difficult to design and build a small, fast, cheap(relatively) plane for the masses.

I know the Lancair is the pinnacle of EXP design. I don't know what they offer but I know the latest one is darned expensive. I believe it has a turbine of 700?HP to go 300kts. So, it can be done, but it's not cheap, easy or fast build. However, it will get there I guess.
 
If you want to do it in a twin, then your best bet is going to be your Aerostar. Get a permit for flight with ferry tanks - it's pretty straightforward.

Otherwise, Lancair IV-P with the extra extra tankage. The Evolution is too big and less efficient, even with the piston.
 
Man those Sport Class guys at Reno have really been barking up the wrong tree. ;)

The Formula class guys are limited to O-200 engines with few modifications, and they do 250. The Sport guys are seeing 350.
 
The Formula class guys are limited to O-200 engines with few modifications, and they do 250. The Sport guys are seeing 350.

Yep and you are still standing by your 345 mph MM? Hell, in that case with a little cleanup, it would outrun all those Lancairs and Glasairs. Shh...don't tell the Reno guys. ;)
 
Yep and you are still standing by your 345 mph MM? Hell, in that case with a little cleanup, it would outrun all those Lancairs and Glasairs. Shh...don't tell the Reno guys. ;)

As clean as it is, it would require a lot more than 'a little clean up', it would require redesigning the wing.
 
The Formula class guys are limited to O-200 engines with few modifications, and they do 250.

The first modification is to run 3700 rpm. ;-)

The second modification is to bolt that screaming time bomb O-200 to a tiny, tiny airframe that is only useful for carrying a very cramped guy around a racecourse for a few minutes all while watching CHT's and oil temperatures go uncomfortably high because the racers choke off cooling air to reduce drag. Fast Formula racers are optimized for one point on a vast continuum, and pretty much stink at everything else.
 
Has anyone de-iced a Lancair IV, Evolution, or Legacy?
 
Yes, all three.

What's the method of choice? Thermawing or TKS? Who could install a system like that on an experimental?

Since they are "experimental", obviously they're not FIKI, but can they be reasonably flown in conditions you'd fly a FIKI Mooney or Cirrus in?

At some point I might be looking for a high-speed 2-seat commuter with winter dispatch reliability (similar to the OP) and am wondering if it would be practical to take a pre-built experimental and add de-ice.
 
The weight penalty is more and more significant the smaller the aircraft....
 
I'm more of nervous twin flyer, but I wish they still offered the Swearingen SX300 as a kit. That thing was gorgeous. And fast.

sxktix.jpg

Ed Swearingens lines are very evident…..

1512605.jpg

…in his later jet SJ30 design, especially that swept shark fin tail.

BTW, Kelly Aerospace offers the electric Thermawing de-ice. Think the Columbia has it certified, but it's available for experimentals.
 
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If it were me building a continent hopping one or two place airplane, I'd hold out for one of those new Jet A burning compression ignition engines. The fuel load would be around 20 percent lighter for a given mission, plus I don't know how common any future 100 LL substitute is going to be outside of the US.
 
What's the method of choice? Thermawing or TKS? Who could install a system like that on an experimental?

Since they are "experimental", obviously they're not FIKI, but can they be reasonably flown in conditions you'd fly a FIKI Mooney or Cirrus in?

At some point I might be looking for a high-speed 2-seat commuter with winter dispatch reliability (similar to the OP) and am wondering if it would be practical to take a pre-built experimental and add de-ice.

The systems I've seen are the thermawing type. I've never flown any of them in icing, but they seem to do a good job from the videos. The real advantage the Lancairs have is great speed and climb performance (at least much better than a Cirrus), which would help get out of icing faster. That's the real goal.

I have no idea who can install them. I'd call the manufacturer and find out if they have any recommendations.

A few years ago, I had similar ideas, but the need never panned out.
 
If it were me building a continent hopping one or two place airplane, I'd hold out for one of those new Jet A burning compression ignition engines. The fuel load would be around 20 percent lighter for a given mission, plus I don't know how common any future 100 LL substitute is going to be outside of the US.

There's something to that, or at least the general idea. Being able to burn Jet A will be a huge benefit for a trans-oceanic hopping plane.

The real issue from a multi engine perspective will be single engine performance with all the weight. You'll almost certainly be over gross to have enough fuel for a reasonable range. So either you have a plane that's really overpowered and loafing along in cruise to have single engine performance adequate enough, or else you accept that if one quits during the first however long, you may be going in the water. And if that's the case, might as well fly a single.
 
Just checked. Newfoundland to London is about 2k nm. So if you figured you had a plane that could do 200 kts on, say, 20 gph, you'd probably realistically need 250-300 gallons capacity to account for headwinds coming home and reserves.

So it'd be doable and probably still have some level of OEI performance if you flew yourself and understood you were stopping in Newfoundland and London on either side. Could substitute London for anyplace in Scotland, and probably hit Spain/Portugal/France as needed.
 
I'm more of nervous twin flyer, but I wish they still offered the Swearingen SX300 as a kit. That thing was gorgeous. And fast.

sxktix.jpg

I've flown 70SX. The yellow one. It's a great airplane. Just don't get slow although the stall characteristics aren't bad at all. The owner flew it out of 1800 feet of grass. Easy peasy.
 
I've flown 70SX. The yellow one. It's a great airplane. Just don't get slow although the stall characteristics aren't bad at all. The owner flew it out of 1800 feet of grass. Easy peasy.

Cool. I do love the look of them. I read a review of it and it seemed to have almost identical speeds to the Aerostar on approach/landing/stalls. Fast/economical little bugger.

If it were me building a continent hopping one or two place airplane, I'd hold out for one of those new Jet A burning compression ignition engines. The fuel load would be around 20 percent lighter for a given mission, plus I don't know how common any future 100 LL substitute is going to be outside of the US.

Yes, Jet A is the future. Can barely get Avgas outside of the US these days.

Just checked. Newfoundland to London is about 2k nm. So if you figured you had a plane that could do 200 kts on, say, 20 gph, you'd probably realistically need 250-300 gallons capacity to account for headwinds coming home and reserves.

So it'd be doable and probably still have some level of OEI performance if you flew yourself and understood you were stopping in Newfoundland and London on either side. Could substitute London for anyplace in Scotland, and probably hit Spain/Portugal/France as needed.

I could do that in the Aerostar just by installing the 44gal aux tank in the luggage compartment. It's one of the first upgrades on my list. That will take the capacity up to about 220gals (if you overfill). At max economy cruise (184kts, 25K ft, 20.4gal/hr) that means a no wind range of 2024nm which is enough for St. Johns to Ireland with decent margins, at least going east. However, 184kts isn't competing with airlines, nor is the fuel burn in line with a ticket price. For that we need 280-300kts, at least at ideally around 10-15gal/hr, maximum. And the only way to sustain those speeds and lower the consumption is to make it very, very small and light. The Relentless seems to be able to cruise at 325kts for 16gal/hr according to Kevins website, so it doesn't seem impossible to be able to get to 300kts and 10gal/hr if you made something even smaller, maybe a diesel (they normally burn about 30% less for the same horsepower). But what do I know - I'm just a daydreamer.;)
 
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Just checked. Newfoundland to London is about 2k nm. So if you figured you had a plane that could do 200 kts on, say, 20 gph, you'd probably realistically need 250-300 gallons capacity to account for headwinds coming home and reserves.

So it'd be doable and probably still have some level of OEI performance if you flew yourself and understood you were stopping in Newfoundland and London on either side. Could substitute London for anyplace in Scotland, and probably hit Spain/Portugal/France as needed.

There is no reason not to stop in Reykjavik and a whole bunch of pretty and friendly reasons to RON there, if you happen to get weathered in for. Week, well find a snuggle buddy and suffer it out.:yesnod: That makes your long leg 1100miles with emergency diversion fields available. Crossing the Atlantic is not the big *****, crossing the Pacific is, although if you burn Diesel (or have the time/money you can get 100LL prepositioned for you) you can use the Bering Sea route. The southern route through the islands has that bloody 2150nm leg between CA and Hawaii that's pretty tough to fuel mid way lol.
 
Yes, Jet A is the future. Can barely get Avgas outside of the US these days.

I haven't found that particularly true. The magic of the Internet and a Visa Card can get you 100LL anywhere in the world you want it, Antarctica you may want to start your arrangements around May when the resupply runs start organizing, but usually you can get stuff on one of the ships as late as now.
 
There is no reason not to stop in Reykjavik and a whole bunch of pretty and friendly reasons to RON there, if you happen to get weathered in for. Week, well find a snuggle buddy and suffer it out.:yesnod: That makes your long leg 1100miles with emergency diversion fields available. Crossing the Atlantic is not the big *****, crossing the Pacific is, although if you burn Diesel (or have the time/money you can get 100LL prepositioned for you) you can use the Bering Sea route. The southern route through the islands has that bloody 2150nm leg between CA and Hawaii that's pretty tough to fuel mid way lol.

So for those of us who are trying to get somewhere rather than get some, it would be nice to be able to avoid the Iceland stop.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to go there. But if I'm trying to get somewhere, I want range. There's a reason I fly a 310 and not a J-3.
 
So for those of us who are trying to get somewhere rather than get some, it would be nice to be able to avoid the Iceland stop.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to go there. But if I'm trying to get somewhere, I want range. There's a reason I fly a 310 and not a J-3.

Oh, no doubt, range is always good, but if 310 range is typically good for getting you places, then that won't really change on the Translant or where ever your destination is. Right now you're stopping for fuel every 900 miles or so right? The 310 needs little modification to be a Translant machine.

If you need to be somewhere in a hurry, take the smoker. One of the great things I find about GA trips is the people I meet and things I see at stops along the way.
 
Oh, no doubt, range is always good, but if 310 range is typically good for getting you places, then that won't really change on the Translant or where ever your destination is. Right now you're stopping for fuel every 900 miles or so right? The 310 needs little modification to be a Translant machine.

If you need to be somewhere in a hurry, take the smoker. One of the great things I find about GA trips is the people I meet and things I see at stops along the way.

I manage to get plenty of places in a hurry and on time with the 310. Just look at my FlightAware and you'll see the adventures of a few weeks back.

Stratobee asked an admittedly far out hypothetical question, bud I'd be for it, too. With such a machine I could also do my TX-NH trips non-stop, and could've also done WA-OH similarly. Sure, I had fun stopping in WY for lunch with a friend, but I would've liked to get home 3-4 hours earlier, too. Of course I'd need to be able to put the dogs in, so I can't give up cargo space.
 
I haven't found that particularly true. The magic of the Internet and a Visa Card can get you 100LL anywhere in the world you want it, Antarctica you may want to start your arrangements around May when the resupply runs start organizing, but usually you can get stuff on one of the ships as late as now.

I think he was referring to being able to get your avgas without the multiweek lead time, and without maxing out that Visa card. I was looking at at the price and availability of avgas in the Caribbean, and while in some places it's readily available at a 10-20% premium, there's others where there is jet fuel only, and others where avgas is double what jet fuel costs.

Should that 100LL substitute become available in the next few years, it might help availability since the problem of lead contamination of shipping vessels goes away. Then again, if that lead free avgas is only produced in a few locations, things might get worse.
 
Going fast is part of the dream for me, for sure.

When I was doing my private, I started to plan a cross-country to Vegas or California from MN. I was planning it "just for fun", as something I might do when I got my certificate.

Holy crap! In the Piper Warrior I was training in, the trip was going to take way longer than any passenger would want to be in a small plane with me. I didn't want to be in a small plane with me that long.


I would LOVE a Lancair IV-P! If I could nitpick; I'd like a two-door. I don't think climbing over a seat is an elegant entrance. The speed would be fantastic. The ground steering might be hard to get used to; I have no idea.

I think the perfect airplane would be a 182 or 210 body, that somehow keeps it's fuel burn, but goes way, way faster. 182 burn rate at 250 knots, yes please. :)

If a kit could be made to retrofit an older 182, to make it slippery enough to be significantly faster, that would sell well, I'd imagine.
 
Horton made such a kit, (not 250kts but still quite a bit faster)

They don't seem to market it any more.
 
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