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Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
ref: the Student in IMC post; I figured a new thread would be a good place for me to respond to this, as that one continues on at length upon the same issue; legality. :(

You guys have known me long enough to understand I would never come down hard on anyone for anything. I would more likely try to gently nudge the group in (what I think is) a better direction. So I apologize if I seemed torqued, I really wasn't. And my post today does not carry any heat.

But I do suggest that we step back and look at what happens to a poster with an interesting story, ......sometimes the same happens when a person asks an innocent question online.

How did we get to be so judgemental of our fellow pilot? Why is it that we have to leap to center stage with a copy of the FARs in one hand, the gavel in the other? (I am NOT in the camp that thinks we can materially alter public perception of GA at large by scrapping with a few folks online)

To me, the legality of flying is important, but it is not THE thing that should normally interest a pilot. The FARs are interesting.....but certainly not the joy of flying.

I wonder if the Dans of the world have decided to quietly leave POA and other forums, or at least to stop sharing their experiences because we have become so hair-triggered to scan their post, video or photos for some infraction.
I don't point the finger at anyone, heck I have been sucked into the pack action myself. The blue board is not nearly as bad as the others, in fact it is surprising to see it bleed on to this one.

What do you guys think? Maybe its just me.....or perhaps we can still enjoy someone's story - and if need be - somehow get our concerns to the person involved quietly about a perceived illegality without taking over a thread & sending the guy packing.

For the thread in question, I see an interesting flying story and one or two positive comments but over 40 on how or if, it was legal.

So are we pilots, or have we turned into FAA-lawyer wannabees?

Respectfully, and in appreciation of your input,
 
I think people tend to parse these things to the point where ANYTHING can be considered illegal.

I tend to think the FAA can find reason to violate anyone at any time for any thing, so I tend not to worry about the minutia.
 
Amen, Dave. We need, always, to couch our responses in terms of "here is how I see it," rather than, "you're wrong, idiot!" I use dramatic language to make my point, not intending to suggest that the latter standard was reached or breached in any particular event.

Good standards, for any posting, are these: "Would I be uncomfortable saying this to this person, in person, with witnesses? " and "Would I be insulted, offended, rankled or riled if the same response were directed at me?"

If the answer to either is anything other than an unqualified, "No," then you should convey the message, if at all, by private message, so you can resolve any disagreements without the possibility of public humiliation or the perceived need for public retaliation.

I have been so wrong, so many times, but I have also been fortunate to have friends and colleagues who recognize that it is more beneficial to the overall discourse if we communicate on a mature level. Emotionally-charged (or emotionally-charging) responses will cloud any hint of productive message, leave bad feelings, and make dogs cower in fear.

OK, that last part I made up. But you get it.
 
I didn't particularly see a problem anyway. The student doesn't have to be in the left, or even front seat to be learning. If the student is actively seeking and participating in an instructional regime, they can even learn from the back or jump seat watching and listening to two pilots interacting during a flight they are no where near competent to be conducting. Flight instruction is about a hell of a lot more than flying, actually, flying is really a minority issue. Flight instruction is most importantly about learning how to think and make decissions, and you don't need to be at the controls for that.
 
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Agree with the above.
It isn't always what the "intent" of the post is (to make someone aware of something) but the way the words are put down that seems to upset some of us.
There is SO much knowledge gained from posts made and the responses to them. It would be such a shame to lose all the learning we all get from reading them.

Mark B
 
Life has three phases:

In the first we worry way too much about what other people are thinking about us.
In the second we stop worrying about what other people think about us.
In the final stage we come to realize that other people aren't thinking about us at all.

I think perhaps we spend too much time in phase one when we post.

Good subject Dave.
 
Chip, you are so full of crap!
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Get it? :D
 
I've found myself posting less here for the reasons you raise Dave. This board certainly has more than one function. Learning and friendship are high on my list. I don't learn when directly criticized. I become defensive. Some folks are saying things they wouldn't in person. If they did in person, they would quickly and politely be deleted from any conversation I was having. Some assertions are incorrect.

Points can be raised politely with concern. It's excellent that we all think of things that can cause a problem, but we are not the FAA's enforcement arm.

Like I say, this board is losing some of the civility and comradery that initially attracted me to it. I find myself replying more to folks I know and avoiding some others that take it upon themselves to be overly judgmental. Some folks jump in without knowing a thing about the poster's background, experience and perspective. There are a lot of things one may do that are legal, but dumb. You'll find something coming up in Air Safety about that. Conversely, there are some rules that don't put one in the best of circumstances.

Best,

Dave
 
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I'm in agreement with much of the sentiment here, BUT....

I think part of being a Captain, and PIC, is being confident in your aeronautical decisions, before, during, and after. That's not to say you won't make mistakes, but you should be able to calmly defend your decisions, and learn from them, good and bad.

Learning from post-action critiques from your peers is a good thing. You should either learn that you still believe you were correct, or you learn that perhaps there was another valid way of looking at the decision. Either one is a good outcome.

When I was in the USCG, every aero mission started with a preflight briefing, and ended with a post-flight briefing/critique. Sometimes it was just the crew involved, but more often it was every crewman on the station, as our CO firmly believed that "none of us is as smart as ALL of us". As the medic on board, I often had to participate in multiple reviews - one from the aircrew side and another from the medical side. When I first started, I often got defensive when one of my judgments was questioned. As I got more experienced, I realized that much of the questions weren't "you should have done this", but more "what might have happened if this had been done instead?" I learned to be more objective, and got a thicker skin, and my defensiveness went away. I ALSO learned that the way a question is asked can make a big difference, and when I was participating in a review of someone else's actions, I tried to remember to ask questions in a non-judgmental way.

I'm convinced that the sort of questioning and critiques that go on here are valuable, even though it may be painful at times. The medium is lousy for it as there's no body language, no tone, no nuances in written communication. Nonetheless, I'd hate to see anyone bow out because of it.

A general I knew once said that when he was REALLY ****ed about something, it was almost always a sign that some of that anger was directed at himself, because he'd either done or not done something, and he knew better.

This has rambled a bit, but I want to wrap it up by saying that I hope people will still share their questions and their experiences, and as long as nobody gets personally attacked, the moderators won't need to jump in, and any comments can be taken in the same vein as "stick and stones". Some of the advice you get here may only convince you that the advisor is a jerk, but even then, you've still learned something useful.

Best wishes,
 
Good post Dave. I don't think we should do away with the critique but just mind the way it is delivered.
 
TMetzinger said:
When I was in the USCG, every aero mission started with a preflight briefing, and ended with a post-flight briefing/critique. Sometimes it was just the crew involved, but more often it was every crewman on the station, as our CO firmly believed that "none of us is as smart as ALL of us". As the medic on board, I often had to participate in multiple reviews - one from the aircrew side and another from the medical side. When I first started, I often got defensive when one of my judgments was questioned. As I got more experienced, I realized that much of the questions weren't "you should have done this", but more "what might have happened if this had been done instead?" I learned to be more objective, and got a thicker skin, and my defensiveness went away. I ALSO learned that the way a question is asked can make a big difference, and when I was participating in a review of someone else's actions, I tried to remember to ask questions in a non-judgmental way.

I'm convinced that the sort of questioning and critiques that go on here are valuable, even though it may be painful at times. The medium is lousy for it as there's no body language, no tone, no nuances in written communication. Nonetheless, I'd hate to see anyone bow out because of it.

A general I knew once said that when he was REALLY ****ed about something, it was almost always a sign that some of that anger was directed at himself, because he'd either done or not done something, and he knew better.
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Tim,
I think you've brought to light a very important point. Your experiences have taught you how hard it can be to accept critique (Note I'm not even saying criticism), even when it's face-to-face. When it's in public without the ameliorating effect of body language, it can be even more difficult, as you observe. I think that those on the receiving end of a critique need to be cognizant that people aren't (usually) out to get them, and that there's rarely malice involved.

And I can empathize with your general. When I do something bone-headed, I often get defensive, angry, and touchy. I tend to lash out because I'm angry with myself. I try hard not to let it happen.:yes:
 
Dave,

You make a valid point. I'm usually selective on my choice of topic when posting. I know I'll receive criticism on some things but why put myself in the crossfire when that's the obvious result to take place? I actually feel "safer" posting in the SZ than other forums because I've gotten to know the folks there well enough to know what to expect, be it good, bad or whatever. And, I can shell it out much easier in that place.

Sometimes, I step into it on other forums so I've become somewhat gun-shy. As my knowledge level and confidence grows, perhaps I'll have more to contribute. One thing's for certain. I was told long ago I'd never really start learning until I begin teaching. The best part of it is I love teaching and love learning more so I can become a better teacher. Sometimes, I'll stick my foot out here for feedback for ideas. But for now, more often than not, I'll remain somewhat reserved.

By the way, will Dave's opinion above really fly if it were placed on a treadmill? :D
 
I try and invoke the "three a**hole rule". If I run into one jerk, it's him. If I run into a second jerk that day, it's likely him, too. If I run into three or more jerks in a single day...

it's not them, it's me. :(

I try and use the same idea when dealing with threads.
 
Dave

Thanks for your post...very good!
I hope the Dan's of the world continue sharing there experiences, and not to get intimidated by a few.

Maybe the webmaster can take your post and have it as a pop-up for everyone to read every time they log on.
 
I'll say one thing (having missed the OP): you sure hear a lot more talk about the FARs here than in the typical hangar. :D
 
Skyhawk4754 said:
Maybe the webmaster can take your post and have it as a pop-up for everyone to read every time they log on.
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The people who would read and pay attention to it are not the people who it was directed at and who need to pay attention to it, sadly.

Thanks, Dave, glad someone has said this.
 
Dave, thank you for starting this thread and posting your thoughts about this. I agree with you.


Dave Siciliano said:
I've found myself posting less here for the reasons you raise Dave. This board certainly has more than one function. Learning and friendship are high on my list. I don't learn when directly criticized. I become defensive.
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I feel the same way. I don't post as many questions about flying or talk about my flying as much here and on the other forums because I've been pounced on too many times. There are still threads out there that I hugely regret starting for that very reason. Yea, I'm probably too sensitive, but maybe with therapy I'll get over it. :no: :D
 
The one time I tried to say the same thing, Dave, I was a bit less eloquent and got probated from the forums for a little while.

I'll be the first to point out to a new pilot making a mistake "You're looking at it the wrong way...." but I'll never condemn someone for a mistake unless they have the wrong attitude about it. Unfortunately, that's not very common anymore. The internet is an easy place to puff yourself up as billy badass and make someone else feel smaller.

Most of my posting has been in Spin Zone, and for a while (a good few months), I rarely posted at all. And I think that the reason is exactly what Dave is pointing out.
 
etsisk said:
I try and invoke the "three a**hole rule". If I run into one jerk, it's him. If I run into a second jerk that day, it's likely him, too. If I run into three or more jerks in a single day...

it's not them, it's me. :(

I try and use the same idea when dealing with threads.
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That's ****ing brilliant. I'm gonna remember it forever. Thanks!
 
Diana said:
I feel the same way. I don't post as many questions about flying or talk about my flying as much here and on the other forums because I've been pounced on too many times. There are still threads out there that I hugely regret starting for that very reason. Yea, I'm probably too sensitive, but maybe with therapy I'll get over it. :no: :D
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I don't think it's a matter of sensitivity so much as many people, who I believe have good intentions, follow a different communication philosophy that I do. My philosophy is that if you take what I say in a way other than I intended, then I have done a poor job at communicating. Most people take the philosophy of "I think this is a good way of communicating so it must be" or "I wouldn't care if someone talked to me this way."

Unfortunately, you frequently get the addition of "I am an authoritative figure, and am therefore going to declare my views with authority." I do not believe this is generally intentional. The problem, though, is that such views tend to come off as attacks, regardless of the intent, and then you get reactions similar to the ones that Dave, Diana, and I have had. I know I can be a jerk at times, but it's usually intentional. I try hard (not always successfully) to be polite about how I phrase views, and less as a "You're wrong" than "Well, have you considered..." or "From my experience..." (in cases where I have enough experience to make such a claim, which is rare).

How you speak will win just as many people over, if not more, than what you're saying when you speak. This is a good life lesson for all of us.
 
I'm with you Dave. I've been posting on this forum for about three years. The most important thing I've learned is the skill of ignoring *******s.

There are several threads that I have started but never submitted because I didn't want to deal with the potential reaction or lecturing from the select few on this site that enjoy chastising others.

You must not forget the public nature of this forum and the threads / posts you submit. The second you do it'll come back and bite you in the ass. I've always wanted a more 'private' place to talk to my online aviation friends without the concern of every random ******* out there finding it on google.
 
jesse said:
There are several (many) threads that I have started but never submitted because I didn't want to deal with the potential reaction or lecturing from the select few on this site that enjoy chastising others.

You must not forget the public nature of this forum and the threads / posts you submit. The second you do it'll come back and bite you in the ass. I've always wanted a more 'private' place to talk to my online aviation friends without the concern of every random ******* out there finding it on google.
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Thanks for typing just what I was thinking, Jesse.
When it comes to aviation, I'm pretty stoopid. :goofy:
I just wanna be safe, legal and have fun. I read waaaayyy more than I post. I learn more by reading than by getting bashed about my "inadequecies".
 
jesse said:
You must not forget the public nature of this forum and the threads / posts you submit. The second you do it'll come back and bite you in the ass. I've always wanted a more 'private' place to talk to my online aviation friends without the concern of every random ******* out there finding it on google.
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Very true. I've often thought that I'd like a couple of forums here that aren't visible without logging in, but I respect the decision of the MC to make it all visible. I think that was one of the motivators for the creation of the Purple Board, IIRC. OTOH, it is because I can't see what's there that I haven't signed up. Yeah, I want to have my cake and eat it too! :) Even if board content isn't accessible via Google, you still have no expectation of privacy, of course. :no:

For the most part, I try to give the posters the benefit of the doubt; presuming that their apparent rudeness was just a reflection of the limitations of the medium. OTOH, there are a few who truly are as you characterize them!:mad:
 
gprellwitz said:
Very true. I've often thought that I'd like a couple of forums here that aren't visible without logging in, but I respect the decision of the MC to make it all visible. I think that was one of the motivators for the creation of the Purple Board, IIRC. OTOH, it is because I can't see what's there that I haven't signed up. Yeah, I want to have my cake and eat it too! :) Even if board content isn't accessible via Google, you still have no expectation of privacy, of course. :no:

For the most part, I try to give the posters the benefit of the doubt; presuming that their apparent rudeness was just a reflection of the limitations of the medium. OTOH, there are a few who truly are as you characterize them!:mad:
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The purple board doesn't solve the problem. It just stops Google from seeing it. But it isn't hard to register an account and see the content. I'm not sure there really is a solution. Hangar talk in person is different because short of a tape recorder the words come out of your mouth once and aren't in written text forever.

The only solution is to recognize online forums for what they are and what they aren't. PoA has done a good job of building a community of strong friends with a lower than average ******* rate. Remember that the text you write will be interpreted in ten different ways. Remember the same thing when you are reading the words of others.
 
jesse said:
I'm with you Dave. I've been posting on this forum for about three years. The most important thing I've learned is the skill of ignoring *******s...
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Jesse, a key clarification -

Besides having learned how to ignore them, you have also learned how not to appear to be one yourself!

That word - "appear" - is important, because those of us who know you, know that you are not an a-hole, but how you present your thoughts is key in how you are perceived.

This is something from which we can all learn.
 
jesse said:
The purple board doesn't solve the problem. It just stops Google from seeing it. But it isn't hard to register an account and see the content. I'm not sure there really is a solution. Hangar talk in person is different because short of a tape recorder the words come out of your mouth once and aren't in written text forever.
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Agreed. That's what I was trying to get to with the last sentence of the first paragraph.

jesse said:
The only solution is to recognize online forums for what they are and what they aren't. PoA has done a good job of building a community of strong friends with a lower than average ******* rate. Remember that the text you write will be interpreted in ten different ways. Remember the same thing when you are reading the words of others.
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Yeah. If you say something in hangar flying, then it's hearsay and inadmissible, if the FAA were a court of law. Of course, they aren't, so they likely have different rules for the admissibility of evidence. Right, all you lawyers out there?
 
POA is like life a bit. If you can't be a schumck in front of your friends well then you don't have many friends.
 
Lots of FAR thumpers, holier-than-thou and know-it-alls here for sure.. it does get a bit tiring.

Granted, I have been doing this long enough to develop some pretty strong opinions,.. but still...
 
AdamZ said:
POA is like life a bit. If you can't be a schumck in front of your friends well then you don't have many friends.
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Nicely put, Adam.

Many that are sweet as honey posting here are backstabbing, selfish cretins in RL. Most of us will never know.

Many that are painfully blunt and uncompromising here will be the best wingman to hope for in RL. Most of us will never know.

It's a "forum" folks. NONE of this really matters in RL. We should pull together when we have too and play hardball like big-boys when we don't.
 
I agree, and thanks for posting, Dave.

I'd love to find a solution, and welcome all ideas....

Heavy moderation doesn't solve it, leaving it wide open (no moderation) isn't great based on some of the bad-post reports we get... it really comes down to the folks involved. A lot of folks post stuff they'd never say in person. If you can't post something nice....

Anyone have a magic wand to wave?
 
wsuffa said:
Anyone have a magic wand to wave?
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No. I think that there are some combinations of people who are like oil and water. They are always going to rub each other the wrong way. This happens in real life as well as on the internet. In real life you don't associate with them, that is unless you are forced to work with them or something. On the internet it's a little harder unless you consciously avoid their posts when reading a thread, but then it's hard to follow the train of discussion.

I agree that people need to be careful about what they post in a public place. It's not like hangar flying with your buddies. Last night I sat around and listened to pilots and a mechanic tell war stories and this whole subject of what makes the internet different than real life came to mind.

I think we generally do a good job here of being respectful of other people's feelings when critiquing other people. Some folks are more blunt than others and some people take things the wrong way but I think virtually everyone has good intentions.
 
I agree, some people are like oil and water. And just like a relationship in RL, once you spend a LONG time with someone (maybe a spouse, or even a friend on a road trip) you can get on each others nerves.

Once you get on each others nerves it's so easy on the internet to just let loose.
 
You know, I feel like I've been called an ******* at least 17 times so far in thread.

Here's a quote form the red board.

I'd hate myself if I knew about it and didn't speak up.
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It was about a cfi drunk on his lessons. A lot different from what we're talking about, I know.

Should this really be a place where we hear about people doing things that might not be kosher (that word works for me here even if I'm not Jewish) are let go without even a comment?

If you know you're pushing the limits, do you really want to post it on the Internet in a public forum. If so how should I respond? If you don't know (like a 1hr private student) do you want to know or not?


Sorry. I'm off on vacation (honeymoom really) and I won't be around to respond much.

I've heard from the last few days that you'all really don't care what I think. That really is OK with me, I'm fine. I hope you have fun and never run into any real problems.

Best, really!

Joe
 
Joe, like I said - its not about you. Or anyone in particular. I also said I have done the same myself. Its more about us as a group moving away from nitpicking the legal aspects of some really great experiences that have been shared.
Again Joe, sorry I chose to have my rant in a manner that looked like it was directed at you: I assure you it was not! I enjoy your posts and think you have an immense amount to share here.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Joe, like I said - its not about you. Or anyone in particular. I also said I have done the same myself. Its more about us as a group moving away from nitpicking the legal aspects of some really great experiences that have been shared.
Again Joe, sorry I chose to have my rant in a manner that looked like it was directed at you: I assure you it was not! I enjoy your posts and think you have an immense amount to share here.
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Dave,

No need to apologize to me. My problem (especially in this context) is not that I'm sensitive to being told that I did something somebody on the Internet doesn't like.

Somehow if we're in a hangar or without the public exposure of an Internet Forum, it's much easier to say "that might not be a good thing to have in a NTSB report".

Joe
 
Areeda said:
You know, I feel like I've been called an ******* at least 17 times so far in thread.
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Joe, I'm probably clueless (a constant state for me), but I had no idea this thread was about you. Knowing Dave as well as I do, I don't think he was aiming this at you, but at a cumulative group of people and threads over time.
 
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