The All Purpose Flight Instructor? Or, Just Pick One - Anyone?

[DR750S]

Hello Again!

If you have a long ranging goal like I do, to go from nothing to turbine powered aircraft for business and personal use, would it be best to train with a single Instructor who has their CFI, MEI and a Type Rating in the turbine that you plan to fly? Or, is it better to train with multiple (different) Instructors at each step along the way from Private, Instrument and Multi-Engine? Pros and Cons of both, please.

This one is a pretty straight forward question (I should say: I hope). I know that some of my other questions have been somewhat involved.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the All Purpose Flight Instructor (APFI). Here's why: Fear. I would fear putting all that work into finding the right Instructor, then suddenly shifting to an Instructor where the wheels start to fall off the relationship. Now, I'm forced to get back on my horse to locate another good Instructor.

For me, a good Instructor is a good Explainer, a tremendous Active Listener and a great Guide & Counselor.

With that in mind, which route would you pick and why? Thanks!

 

[TCABM]

I would advise you to think about this endeavor differently. Outside of military flight training, who does this style of training? I’m guessing there will be a pretty regimented syllabus.

Every time I read one of your topics, I question if your goal is to spend as much as possible to achieve your dream.

I *think* if I was in your shoes, I would find the best part 141 school I could find that’s going to get me to AS/MEL Commercial with the most multi-engine hours as quickly as possible. Let them eat the cost of the aircraft while you learn to fly in the system. Figure $65K to get that done.

Then, I’d find a the turboprop of choice, buy it (or partner in it) get the insurance training, and hire a mentor pilot for as many hours as it takes to feel comfortable and satisfy the insurance mins.

You can probably do all this in six months or so for under $500K.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

You’re going to limit your education with one instructor, assuming you’re even going to be able to find a guy that will stick around that long, or find that perfect instructor to begin with.

 

[mscard88]

I'm a CFI, and I'd think flying with different CFIs is very beneficial. Now go find one and get started.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In another post, you said you were going Part 61. Like others, I don't think the "all-purpose instructor" is realistic. Expense completely aside, you are very unlikely to find a CFI who is both willing and qualified to provide primary training in a relatively simple training airplane and also transition type training in a turbine. Type-rating instructors tend to specialize and don't want to be "bothered" with primary training.

I also agree with those who say multiple instructors are beneficial. Even good instructors miss things, they all have their own favorite procedures, and the variety in techniques to accomplish the same procedure gives you an enormous benefit because it forces you to think critically about your flying. I would stick with one instructor per rating for efficiency, but beyond that, the very best non-aviation-employed pilots I fly with rotate their training among a variety of CFIs for this very reason.

Every time I read one of your topics, I question if your goal is to spend as much as possible to achieve your dream.

I don't know if this is your goal, but looking for the perfect instructor is definitely an excellent way to avoid taking lessons.

A question and I mean this seriously and rhetorically - I don't expect an answer. And I apologize or it in advance: Have you looked into getting a medical certificate? I don't know you at all, so this is probably completely off base, but the level of your attention to minute and to some degree unimportant detail about training at this stage seems a bit excessive.

 

[Sinistar]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

I just don't see how it would even be possible given the industry today. In other words, since this question is about actually learning and achieving something (and please not some hypothetical aside)...isn't the answer..."There is a 99.9% chance you will require more than one instructor to accomplish your goal." So pick a good initial CFI and start flying.

I will admit that it really, really bothered me to have to switch CFI's during the PPL. Both were good pilots. Both taught differently. Both recommended the same DPE. But one was definitely more motivated to help me finish

 

[Sinistar]

In another post, you said you were going Part 61. Like others, I don't think the "all-purpose instructor" is realistic. Expense completely aside, you are very unlikely to find a CFI who is both willing and qualified to provide primary training in a relatively simple training airplane and also transition type training in a turbine. Type-rating instructors tend to specialize and don't want to be "bothered" with primary training.

I also agree with those who say multiple instructors are beneficial. Even good instructors miss things, they all have their own favorite procedures, and the variety in techniques to accomplish the same procedure gives you an enormous benefit because it forces you to think critically about your flying. I would stick with one instructor per rating for efficiency, but beyond that, the very best non-aviation-employed pilots I fly with rotate their training among a variety of CFIs for this very reason.

I don't know if this is your goal, but looking for the perfect instructor is definitely an excellent way to avoid taking lessons.

A question and I mean this seriously and rhetorically - I don't expect an answer. And I apologize or it in advance: Have you looked into getting a medical certificate? I don't know you at all, so this is probably completely off base, but the level of your attention to minute and to some degree unimportant detail about training at this stage seems a bit excessive.

+10 more likes.
Yeah, without a medical (and you better be able to pull above a 3rd class eventually)...all of this is just talking around in circles.

 

[jordane93]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

I just don't see how it would even be possible given the industry today. In other words, since this question is about actually learning and achieving something (and please not some hypothetical aside)...isn't the answer..."There is a 99.9% chance you will require more than one instructor to accomplish your goal." So pick a good initial CFI and start flying.

I will admit that it really, really bothered me to have to switch CFI's during the PPL. Both were good pilots. Both taught differently. Both recommended the same DPE. But one was definitely more motivated to help me finish

I’ve only had 2 real instructors. 3 if you count the guy who did my multi commercial in 3 days. Instructor variety is good but I’ve had issues. Some guys like you to learn their technique so you end up repeating lessons that you wouldn’t have normally repeated just because the instructor has a different way of setting up slow flight for example.

 

[RyanB]

+10 more likes.
Yeah, without a medical (and you better be able to pull above a 3rd class eventually)...all of this is just talking around in circles.

Hence my reasoning for stating that he’s a good day dreamer like the rest of us in his thread prior to this one.

Not to say one cannot achieve this goal, because they can, but it’s a lot easier having these aspirations before knowing what’s actually involved.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

I just don't see how it would even be possible given the industry today. In other words, since this question is about actually learning and achieving something (and please not some hypothetical aside)...isn't the answer..."There is a 99.9% chance you will require more than one instructor to accomplish your goal." So pick a good initial CFI and start flying.

I will admit that it really, really bothered me to have to switch CFI's during the PPL. Both were good pilots. Both taught differently. Both recommended the same DPE. But one was definitely more motivated to help me finish

If you are lucky and commit, it's still possible to have the same CFI during all of your private training. Yo might even be able to do that through the instrument rating. Then it starts to get a little more difficult. As you point out, there's the time factor - the longer it takes, the more likely your instructor will move up and out to something else, whether it be specialization, career instruction with a large organization or, of course, a piloting career.

Since you mentioned switching during the private training, that happened to me too. I came fora lesson one day to find my CFI had a blow-out with management. I was very close to solo, but had a few major issues (if you consider aiming for a building on the side of the runway instead of the numbers major), and figured, at this rate I'd never solo. The new instructor saw something my first didn't (even in retrospect, both were excellent) and I soloed on mu second lesson with him.

 

[DR750S]

I would advise you to think about this endeavor differently. Outside of military flight training, who does this style of training? I’m guessing there will be a pretty regimented syllabus.

Every time I read one of your topics, I question if your goal is to spend as much as possible to achieve your dream.

I *think* if I was in your shoes, I would find the best part 141 school I could find that’s going to get me to AS/MEL Commercial with the most multi-engine hours as quickly as possible. Let them eat the cost of the aircraft while you learn to fly in the system. Figure $65K to get that done.

Then, I’d find a the turboprop of choice, buy it (or partner in it) get the insurance training, and hire a mentor pilot for as many hours as it takes to feel comfortable and satisfy the insurance mins.

You can probably do all this in six months or so for under $500K.

Thanks! I've heard more than a few times that many 141 schools just deliver the bare minimum to the student, so they can "get by" on the check rides. Leaving the student "qualified" but not very substantially trained. I don't know whether that's true or not, but it could be a risk that I'd have to consider. I've looked into 141 and found that FlightSafety, is probably the best. I like the 141 route. But, my concern would be the depth of training possible in such a short and compressed period of time. The money involved is of no concern to me. The richness and efficiency of the training is what matters to me the most. I was hoping for a 61 route with a Career Flight Instructor having a specific background in aviation and who actually understands what I'm trying to get done.

I do like the mentor pilot idea after acquiring the turboprop. That just seems to make a whole lot of sense to me. I'd be the rookie still learning in a twin turbine prop with someone having far greater skill and experience monitoring my performance and offering strong criticism when and where needed. I like that. I really do.

Under $500k. The twin turboprops that come to mind are the King Air (C90, 100 or 200), or a Cessna 441. There are others, but they don't appeal to me for various and different reasons. In either case, based on what I've researched on the used market, there would be the need for upgrading the avionics. The King Air has a great G1000 integration but is now also available in G3000. I've never seen a 441/G3000 integration before, but I have seen 441/G1000 though very rare. Most 441 upgrades I've seen are of the G600/GTN750 variety, which is still a very nice set-up if its TXi. Most late model 441s that fit that config I've seen in the $600k to $800k range. The 441s I've seen down in the $400k range all pretty much have GNS430W or GNS530W panels and would require another $200k+ to bring up to G1000 standards. Again, I don't know of any 441 having G3000. Getting a King Air at that same price level is possible, but the TT on the airframe is going to be relatively high and you are probably looking at significantly older King Airs at that same 441 price level. I've looked into the cost factors before I began looking into the training factors for this project.

I very much appreciate the input!

 

[DR750S]

You’re going to limit your education with one instructor, assuming you’re even going to be able to find a guy that will stick around that long, or find that perfect instructor to begin with.

Yes. Definitely something to think about. Especially the part about finding someone to stick around that long. Is it the nature of Flight Instructors to only specialize in one type of rating or certificate? I guess from a purely business standpoint, if I were an instructor and had multiple instructor ratings, I could deal with downturns in the economy better when people stop spending money on flight training - because I'd have more flexibility in the type of instruction I could offer. I have no idea whether that's true or not, but just off the top, it would seem like a plausible reason to maintain multiple instructor ratings. Of course, there are some places that only have hotdogs on the menu and others that only have pizza on the menu and they do well regardless of economic conditions.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

No, many can offer flight instruction typically in many different aircraft.

Where are you located? Size of flight school or city will determine number of options.

 

[DR750S]

I'm a CFI, and I'd think flying with different CFIs is very beneficial. Now go find one and get started.

Yes, I feel like doing just that! But, I've got to finish my due diligence or I'll hate myself in the morning after climbing in bed with the wrong Instructor.

Ok, just for clarification purposes - that "climbing in bed" part was colloquialism at its finest hour.

 

[Sinistar]

@DR750S, how much time do you plan on spending to select a instructor?

 

[murphey]

Yes, I feel like doing just that! But, I've got to finish my due diligence or I'll hate myself in the morning after climbing in bed with the wrong Instructor.

Ok, just for clarification purposes - that "climbing in bed" part was colloquialism at its finest hour.

The more time you spend doing "due diligence" is more delay getting started, a later end date, less fun, and so on.

Really, if you're sole purpose is flying for the convenience of your business, you need to reconsider getting the certs and change your goal. Find a commercial pilot who will be available at your convenience, and have them work with you on which aircraft to buy. In the end it will be cheaper and faster than what you're going thru now.

 

[DR750S]

Not to say one cannot achieve this goal, because they can, but it’s a lot easier having these aspirations before knowing what’s actually involved.

Which is why one might ask a lot of questions before hand and do a lot of study prior to taking the plunge, so that they have some kind of roadmap or bigger picture to relate to. I think this could be one of the core reasons why such a forum exists. Others with experience offering experiential advice and ideas to those without it. Else, GA could become too stagnant - functioning only on the work of the True Bloods and never allowing New Blood in to provide replenishment, diversity and longevity.

Albert Einstein, used to take naps on purpose during the middle of the day, in order to increase his creativity. Not a joke. He actually did that. He was a Day Dreamer to the extreme limits of Day Dreaming. I started doing that in my work, but found I had difficult sleeping in the middle of the day. So, I used that time to meditate and allow my thoughts about complex algorithms to free range. I ended up developing some of my best Algos that way and would later use them in the larger system architecture. Day Dreaming and Meditation works when you have something of particular focus to Day Dream about! Your subconscious mind will go to work in the background and provide you with ideas you'd probably never contemplate at the conscious level alone.

Einstein, allowed his mind to chase a beam of light. From that Thought Experiment we got Special Relativity. I've allowed my mind to chase Price in the financial markets doing thought experiments in the middle of the day. Today, I now have SwapCycle Algorithmic Branching as the basis for a Decision Support Platform which is approximately 93% accurate to a specified target within 24 hours. Highly targeted specificity in a business model that is supposed to be Completely Random. I guess I broke the rules. Day Dreaming works! Try it!

 

[mscard88]

Yes, I feel like doing just that! But, I've got to finish my due diligence or I'll hate myself in the morning after climbing in bed with the wrong Instructor.

Ok, just for clarification purposes - that "climbing in bed" part was colloquialism at its finest hour.

Listen, take the friggin step and go up with a CFI. You can change (some like to use "fire" ) the CFI and get another one. Enough posting and hee haw'ng. Go do a couple of flights and then come back and let us know what you think.

 

[TCABM]

Thanks! ...
I very much appreciate the input!

You might find this article informative.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/choosing-a-flight-school


A Checklist for Choosing a Good Flight School

* Determine your aviation goals. Are you learning to fly for fun or do you plan to pursue a career?
- You know this part already.


Compile a list of schools to examine, and request literature from each.
- Which schools can support your goals. Like it or not, the pilot mills put out a product that is validated by the FAA or its delegate to have met a certain standard.

Once you've done your "homework," visit the final two or three schools that pass the test. Ask questions and get a feel for the personalities of the schools. Ask specific questions and insist on specific answers. Talk to other students and flight instructors.

 

[DR750S]

@DR750S, how much time to plan on spending to select a instructor?

Only enough to allow for finding one that understands the ultimate goal and who can map to it with an appropriate Syllabus. The structure of 141 and the flexibility of 61. I hope to combine both, include/surpass all ACS requirements and steer (prepare) towards real IFR (day, night, weather, IMC) in a twin turboprop with safe flying as the primary goal.

 

[Salty]

With your IQ and energy you could be flying the space shuttle in 6 months if only you find the right instructor. Choose wisely.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If/when the time comes and you are looking at a turbine remember that the majority of its value is found forward of the firewall.

 

[Sinistar]

Remember, this isn't general or special relativity or quantum mechanics or specialized economics or pricing algorithms or whatever. Us engineers and deep thinkers (like yourself) can really, really get hung up on flying because there is a actual feel to certain things that you must experience, give in to and accept. Landing being a primary example.

This is learning to fly. Was Einstein a pilot (I don't even know - LOL)?

Given your approach I would estimate that your chances of actually taking the first measureable step (which includes):

1.) Obtain valid medical
2.) Buy a new log book
3.) Meet CFI's
4.) Pick a CFI
5.) Fly a 1st lesson
6.) CFI signs off first flight in your logbook

...to be about 0.1%. That's not to be mean. Its just that people who get wrapped around the axle on theory are often covering up a fear of actually doing it. Yet they want to be perceived as part of the group they are so interested in. Its just gets tougher and tougher the more words get said with no actions. Don't be that guy.

Unless you have a disqualifying or special medical issue, #1...#6 above should require no more than about 5hrs of your life. Of your $1M you will still have about $999,500. You will then have a vastly different set of more realistic questions like: What is a decent headset? Why did the tower say what it did? Should the CFI have done X instead of Y?, Is that hot babe in the Archer a student too , Are 182's the world's best airplane

 

[RyanB]

Only enough to allow for finding one that understands the ultimate goal and who can map to it with an appropriate Syllabus. The structure of 141 and the flexibility of 61. I hope to combine both, include/surpass all ACS requirements and steer (prepare) towards real IFR (day, night, weather, IMC) in a twin turboprop with safe flying as the primary goal.

Point is, it’s way too premature to even think about finding an instructor for a turbine. You haven’t even taken a single lesson yet. Focus on one thing at a time. Get your Private and Instrument and then go from there.

As Mark said, you’re hee-hawing too much with trying to map out everything. Whatever you plan on now WILL change by time it’s all said and done.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

I used to know a guy who got hired to teach somebody who bought a new Bonanza to learn to fly...by the time the guy had his Private certificate, he also had a corporate King Air that my buddy was flying for him. The training progressed through multi, transition to a 414, and then the King Air. The corporate plane morphed through a couple of Citation models before it ended.

 

[mscard88]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

I did my Comm, Instrument, ME, CFI, CFII, and MEI with the same CFI. But than we drank beer together too. He was the Chief Pilot & Chief CFI of the 141 flight school, plus a fellow Air Force guy. Yeah we got along well.

 

[James331]

In another post, you said you were going Part 61. Like others, I don't think the "all-purpose instructor" is realistic. Expense completely aside, you are very unlikely to find a CFI who is both willing and qualified to provide primary training in a relatively simple training airplane and also transition type training in a turbine. Type-rating instructors tend to specialize and don't want to be "bothered" with primary training.

I also agree with those who say multiple instructors are beneficial. Even good instructors miss things, they all have their own favorite procedures, and the variety in techniques to accomplish the same procedure gives you an enormous benefit because it forces you to think critically about your flying. I would stick with one instructor per rating for efficiency, but beyond that, the very best non-aviation-employed pilots I fly with rotate their training among a variety of CFIs for this very reason.

I don't know if this is your goal, but looking for the perfect instructor is definitely an excellent way to avoid taking lessons.

A question and I mean this seriously and rhetorically - I don't expect an answer. And I apologize or it in advance: Have you looked into getting a medical certificate? I don't know you at all, so this is probably completely off base, but the level of your attention to minute and to some degree unimportant detail about training at this stage seems a bit excessive.

Most of the turbine instructors don't do primary because of the pay difference.

I think this is a possible goal for the OP, however OP will need some natural ability and the right brain for it.

Using a experienced instructor for everything is a good idea, and finding a multi thousand hour CFI who was a working pilot and also flew a king air or similar isn't asking too much.

Op just better not expect to get away with paying the CFI $50 a hr

 

[DR750S]

In another post, you said you were going Part 61.

I like 141. I think it would be best for me. The problem is that I've talked with 141 grads and they all seem to agree that you only get the bare minimum of instruction. In other words, some of them felt like they could have learned more and a deeper level, but the 141 system required them to "move on" to the next chapter very quickly. I don't believe that kind of training situation is what's best for me. However, the structure of 141 as seen through its Syllabus, is highly beneficial to someone like me because of the Road Map that it provides.

Like others, I don't think the "all-purpose instructor" is realistic. Expense completely aside, you are very unlikely to find a CFI who is both willing and qualified to provide primary training in a relatively simple training airplane and also transition type training in a turbine. Type-rating instructors tend to specialize and don't want to be "bothered" with primary training.

That's very good to know. Thank you!

I also agree with those who say multiple instructors are beneficial. Even good instructors miss things, they all have their own favorite procedures, and the variety in techniques to accomplish the same procedure gives you an enormous benefit because it forces you to think critically about your flying. I would stick with one instructor per rating for efficiency, but beyond that, the very best non-aviation-employed pilots I fly with rotate their training among a variety of CFIs for this very reason.

Very good reply and makes sense!

I don't know if this is your goal, but looking for the perfect instructor is definitely an excellent way to avoid taking lessons.

No, that's actually a very fair and appropriate question. I was looking for someone like me quite frankly and in all honesty.

I'm statistically in the 99th percentile in my industry. So, yes. I was hoping to find an Instructor at the top of their game and considered as part of the top of the industry. However, I'm learning from pilots like you that such a find may indeed not be entirely necessary. At the same exact time, I am laboring to understand the Part 91 incident statistics when compared with Part 121 and Part 135. The ratio of incidents between 91 and 121 is staggering. In my line of work, when I see numbers so differential, I get highly suspicious. Both pilots share the same airspace system, yet one of them is experiencing safety of flight issues that actually cause resultant problems for keeping the airplane aloft at a rate that is bewildering in relationship to the other. Because of this, I put a lot of effort into understanding what I can do as a Student Pilot, to survive and later thrive as a Part 91 Pilot, despite these massively large ratios that clearly point to a problem lurking somewhere inside the system.

Have you looked into getting a medical certificate? I don't know you at all, so this is probably completely off base, but the level of your attention to minute and to some degree unimportant detail about training at this stage seems a bit excessive.

I looked at the things that could stop me cold, first. Medical and Insurance.

I don't see any problems with either of those when the time comes to engage them. I have no medical, criminal or civil infraction history. Vision correctable to 20/20 without restrictions. Last physical passed with flying colors included full serology panel work-ups. Marital Arts practitioner for 30+ years. 10 to 15 miles run per week. At work every morning at 0500 hrs. And, some IDPA/IPSC/USPSA on the weekends. BTW - one of the ways I had planned to do my time building was to use IDPA/USPSA/IPSC (google it if you have to) matches across the country as the "mission." A lot of these matches are held here in the U.S. and in other countries. This would be a great platform for getting good at real cross-country flight plans and flights into unfamiliar airports.

 

[DR750S]

Aviation Regulation Fallacies and Half-Truths

1. The AIM is not regulatory.
2. A Safety Pilot is only a lookout.
3. The Pilot In Command is the only person with responsibility for the safety of a flight
4. It's your logbook.
5. The FAA is the only governmental body or organization that regulates what we do in aircraft.

As a strict matter of curiosity, I understand the others but I don't understand Number #4. Can you enlighten? In addition, should the FAR and the AIM be read fully and understood completely by all pilots? Or, are they both merely general reference documents/publications that should be referred to when and if needed? Thanks.

 

[DR750S]

Just curious...has anyone here on PoA or any pilot they know...ever completed all the ratings the OP is inferring...with a single instructor?

Thanks. I think that would have been a really good question to include. In fact, that would be a very interesting and revealing Poll on this forum, I would gather.

I will admit that it really, really bothered me to have to switch CFI's during the PPL. Both were good pilots. Both taught differently. Both recommended the same DPE. But one was definitely more motivated to help me finish.

Do regulations require the CFI to 'appoint' the DPE. Or, does the CFI merely "recommend" the DPE? Does this potentially create a conflict of interest for both the CFI and DPE? Let's say the DPE and CFI are related in some way, or have a unique relationship outside of aviation. Could the CFI appoint or recommend that DPE, knowing the DPE will 'take it easy' on the Student during the check-ride? The only reason I ask this question is because of the ultimate result. The system gets a new private pilot that may or may not truly be up to snuff. I'm not suggesting that this kind of thing is pervasive throughout the system, of course. I'm just curious about this "recommendation" or "appointed" (if that's the case) gesture the CFI makes on behave of their student. Thanks.

 

[DR750S]

...I came fora lesson one day to find my CFI had a blow-out with management...

This is the kind of stuff I never knew existed. Thank you.

I was very close to solo, but had a few major issues (if you consider aiming for a building on the side of the runway instead of the numbers major), and figured, at this rate I'd never solo.

I'd like to ask a probing question, but I don't mean it on a personal level of any kind. I'm asking this question because it goes to the heart of why I created this thread and quite frankly, it scares me. Question: How was it possible for you to reach the point where you were that close to your Solo, while still pointing airplanes at buildings instead of runways?

Again, please - don't take my question the wrong way. In fact, if you like, please remove "you" from the question and replace it with "a student" instead. Nothing personal meant by the question. This gets to the heart of what I'm afraid of and it really scares the **** out of me. Excuse my language. The fact that I could reach a point where my instructor is nearing a sign-off on my Solo, yet I'm still headed towards buildings on final, is terrifying to me. This is why I'm going through so much front-end examination of this whole thing before I take the plunge.

I knew something like this would come up. I knew it. I felt it in my gut. This is staggering to hear about. Shocking. It really does give me cause to pause. Again, please, nothing personal. This is a learning process for me and you've provided me with learning material. Thank you!

The new instructor saw something my first didn't

No kidding! Whew!

(even in retrospect, both were excellent) and I soloed on mu second lesson with him.

I'm happy for you just reading about it! I'm glad you got it all worked out in the "Final" (get it) analysis. Pun intended.

 

[James331]

I like 141. I think it would be best for me. The problem is that I've talked with 141 grads and they all seem to agree that you only get the bare minimum of instruction. In other words, some of them felt like they could have learned more and a deeper level, but the 141 system required them to "move on" to the next chapter very quickly. I don't believe that kind of training situation is what's best for me. However, the structure of 141 as seen through its Syllabus, is highly beneficial to someone like me because of the Road Map that it provides.






That's very good to know. Thank you!




Very good reply and makes sense!




No, that's actually a very fair and appropriate question. I was looking for someone like me quite frankly and in all honesty.

I'm statistically in the 99th percentile in my industry. So, yes. I was hoping to find an Instructor at the top of their game and considered as part of the top of the industry. However, I'm learning from pilots like you that such a find may indeed not be entirely necessary. At the same exact time, I am laboring to understand the Part 91 incident statistics when compared with Part 121 and Part 135. The ratio of incidents between 91 and 121 is staggering. In my line of work, when I see numbers so differential, I get highly suspicious. Both pilots share the same airspace system, yet one of them is experiencing safety of flight issues that actually cause resultant problems for keeping the airplane aloft at a rate that is bewildering in relationship to the other. Because of this, I put a lot of effort into understanding what I can do as a Student Pilot, to survive and later thrive as a Part 91 Pilot, despite these massively large ratios that clearly point to a problem lurking somewhere inside the system.




I looked at the things that could stop me cold, first. Medical and Insurance.

I don't see any problems with either of those when the time comes to engage them. I have no medical, criminal or civil infraction history. Vision correctable to 20/20 without restrictions. Last physical passed with flying colors included full serology panel work-ups. Marital Arts practitioner for 30+ years. 10 to 15 miles run per week. At work every morning at 0500 hrs. And, some IDPA/IPSC/USPSA on the weekends. BTW - one of the ways I had planned to do my time building was to use IDPA/USPSA/IPSC (google it if you have to) matches across the country as the "mission." A lot of these matches are held here in the U.S. and in other countries. This would be a great platform for getting good at real cross-country flight plans and flights into unfamiliar airports.

Well this might be a problem.

Understand you don't know jack about aviation, your 99th percentile, no one cares, not your CFI, not the DPE, not the FAA and sure as hell not physics or gravity.

Not one skill you mentioned really translates to aviation, I e also found numbers intensive people can have a linear way of thinking and are not too great at becoming one with the machine.
In many ways skydivers/surfers/motocrosssers who don't have any of the attributes you mentioned excel and make better pilots than engineers/computer types/docs or lawyers, they sure as heck move through their training faster.

I do agree pt61 is much better IF you have a experienced CFI who can tailor the training to your target mission and you, it does take more from the CFI as its not as paint by numbers compared to 141.

Most of the planes you mentioned don't require a type rating.

The pt91 aviation vs 135/121, some of this also has to do with the fact that you're comparing professionally operated aircraft, compare a lawyer with much more education and trail time to someone who just got a 2 year justice degree, same type thing, here are other factors too.

 

[1RTK1]

To the OP, have you ever even flown in or actually flown a small plane?

Do you know if you will like it or are capable of it?

As mentioned before, get a medical first then find ANY instructor and go fly!!!

 

[TCABM]

I like 141. ...Syllabus, is highly beneficial.

Bluntly, you have no idea what you like, other than a syllabus. There are commercially available syllabi for both Pt 61 and Pt 141 operations.

If you’re into understanding the regulatory differences in the school operations, I suggest reading 14 CFR Parts 61 and 141. The performance standards for the certificate or rating don’t change.

From an efficiency standpoint, large operation, either Pt 61/141 in an area with sufficiently flyable days is what you’re needs suggest. Simply because of fleet size being able to accommodate your desire to fly as often as possible.

...I am laboring to understand the Part 91 incident statistics when compared with Part 121 and Part 135. The ratio of incidents between 91 and 121 is staggering.... to survive and later thrive as a Part 91 Pilot, despite these massively large ratios that clearly point to a problem lurking somewhere inside the system.

The “problem” lurking inside the system is humans.

Comparing Pt 91, 121, and 135 is like comparing apples and walnuts. It might make a great salad, but other than the fact they both come from trees, they aren’t related so any comparisons are superficial in nature.

For example, Cape Air operates Cessna 402s in a Pt 135 environment with, I think, only 1 accident in the 402. On the other hand, other operators (both 91 and 135) of C402s suffered 14 accidents in a 5 year stretch (96-01).

Meanwhile, there are plenty of Pt 91 operators in piston singles that will go entire lifetimes in various different aircraft without an incident or accident.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

If/when the time comes and you are looking at a turbine remember that the majority of its value is found forward of the firewall.

Unless it’s a turbine twin.
Do they still call the area forward of the pedals a firewall in a twin.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Unless it’s a turbine twin.
Do they still call the area forward of the pedals a firewall in a twin.

No. The fire wall is behind the engines just like a single engine.

 

[DR750S]

No, many can offer flight instruction typically in many different aircraft.

Where are you located? Size of flight school or city will determine number of options.

Bay Area California. NoCal. We have KOAK, KHWD, KCCR, KSQL, KPAO, KAPC, KSJC, KSTS and KLVK all within reach of where I live. Some would be a good commute for me, but I'll be doing my training full-time. So, I'm making room for a daily commute. I have plans for visiting all of them and mapping out what they have to offer in terms of comprehensive flight training - or the ability to formulate a comprehensive flight training regimen. I'm sure I'll find the right Instructor(s). Its just going to take some leg work on my end, that's all.

This was the other reason why I considered buying my own Trainer. People scoffed at me doing that. What they don't seem to remember is that all of these clubs and schools have aircraft, but they cannot guarantee aircraft availability when I need it. Buying a Trainer takes out the fleet requirement. I'd only have to worry about my own squawks and routine maintenance on a single engine airplane. In addition, it also gives me training and experience in owning airplanes, which from what I've heard is not something to take for granted. So, Aircraft Ownership Training is also part of this package deal I'm trying to put together. I'm trying to think ahead as much as possible.

I don't want the first aircraft I own to be the Twin Turboprop. That sounds strange just writing it. I want to have at least one aircraft ownership experienced under my belt before I get to the Twin Turboprop. Learning the ropes of ownership one step at a time. So, this is not just a Flight Training journey. Its whole package. I want to graduate up through the lower levels and then ascend upwards towards a higher performing and more complex aircraft as my experience level increases.

 

[DR750S]

Listen, take the friggin step and go up with a CFI. You can change (some like to use "fire" ) the CFI and get another one. Enough posting and hee haw'ng. Go do a couple of flights and then come back and let us know what you think.

I've got one scheduled for this weekend. I'm hoping to have two more scheduled before end of Friday. I'll come back and let you know what I think. But, I doubt seriously that simply going up with an Instructor is going to do anything more than be a complete distraction from building out my plan. I'll probably be enjoying myself too much and that will no doubt weight heavily on my subconscious mind - which will do everything it can to get me flying sooner rather than later. Precisely what my conscious mind does not want to do - because my plan is not yet ready.

So, I'll go fly. But, its only going to screw me up, because it will be too exciting to let go of. I'll get trapped into the excitement, lose focus on the bigger picture, not have a formal written plan, start having a ball and never complete my ultimate goal. It will be all your fault, too.

I've got to have a plan in hand. That's the kind of man I am. A plan in hand, Sam. All with green eggs and ham.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Bonanza, baron, king air, Cessna mustang jet.

It’s a good progression. I know someone that has done it. Took about 7 years and lots of training. Had a hired pilot/instructor/baby sitter with him once he started burning kerosene. I think now he flys single pilot about 80% if the time but still hires a typed pilot to help out for the more challenging trips.

 

[DR750S]

You might find this article informative.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/choosing-a-flight-school

Thank you! That was very informative and rather interesting. It generally maps to the plan I had already created for going about the same process of selection, but it adds a lot of detailed texture that I did not know to include. Much appreciated. Interesting too that AOPA says to be "patient" with the "process" of deciding on the right training environment suited to "your needs." So, instinctively, I was on the right track but did not know it. AOPA confirms it and offers more substance. Really nice to see! I was not that far off the mark.