TFR Talk - Transitioning...VFR

[bmoeller]

Ok. Two week TFR in northern NJ starting tonight, got me thinking. I've been planning a flight from Reading, Pa to Danbury, CT to visit family. Although I don't plan on going in the next two weeks, I need to consider that these TFRs are going to continue popping up.

KRDG -> KDXR [TFR Transition]

Since I'm VFR only, is the only option for transition via a filed VFR flight plan? I typically grab flight following at Reading and get assigned a squawk code on the ground. I'm "in the system" per say. I wonder if they would call NY TRACON to grab a code for me to maintain the entire flight. When I head towards Philly, I typically get a Philly squawk code if Reading knows I'll be handed off to them.

It's easy enough to file a flight plan, but still, I wanted to float this out there for discussion. I'm thinking my argument is mute with the "MUST BE ON...VFR flight plan" wording of the restrictions.

TFR Operating Restrictions and Requirements - Outer Ring
All aircraft must be on an active IFR or a filed VFR flight plan with a discrete code assigned by an air traffic control (ATC) facility. Aircraft must be squawking the discrete code prior to departure and at all times while in the TFR and must remain in two-way radio communications with ATC.

 

[Velocity173]

You're supposed to file but I know several have commented on POA that they've gotten thru with just ATC contact and a code. Seriously doubt the controller is going to investigate if you have a VFR flight plan on file or if it's even been activated.

 

[Ravioli]

I'm with @Velocity173 on this one. And would add.. worst case is you do some 360s or hold over a VFR point while you call up FSS to file and activate. Seems easy enough.

 

[EminiTrader]

File, get a code, and blue skies. I was flying right next to Air Force One 2 weeks ago in Norfolk going to JFK. It was cool hearing "AF1 requesting lower when able". No biggie either way as long as they know who you are and where you are.

But I was flying IFR

 

[iamtheari]

It says active IFR or filed VFR plan, so does that not mean you can just file the flight plan and not activate it? You still need the squawk code but you're doing that anyhow with flight following. Just one more step, not necessarily two.

 

[bmoeller]

Thanks guys. Honestly, I'll be filing VFR just so I don't have to take a chance at delays. I figure ATC really only cares about making sure I have a code, direction [destination] and altitude. Typical stuff when requesting flight following.

@iamtheari Interesting detail. That seems even easier. Unless I'm flying north / northwest over central PA (much more sparse), I typically don't activate the flight plan, but ALWAYS obtain flight following.

 

[murphey]

Ok. Two week TFR in northern NJ starting tonight, got me thinking. I've been planning a flight from Reading, Pa to Danbury, CT to visit family. Although I don't plan on going in the next two weeks, I need to consider that these TFRs are going to continue popping up.

KRDG -> KDXR [TFR Transition]

Since I'm VFR only, is the only option for transition via a filed VFR flight plan? I typically grab flight following at Reading and get assigned a squawk code on the ground. I'm "in the system" per say. I wonder if they would call NY TRACON to grab a code for me to maintain the entire flight. When I head towards Philly, I typically get a Philly squawk code if Reading knows I'll be handed off to them.

It's easy enough to file a flight plan, but still, I wanted to float this out there for discussion. I'm thinking my argument is mute with the "MUST BE ON...VFR flight plan" wording of the restrictions.

How much time & effort does it take to fill VFR and avoid any delays or reroutes?

 

[bmoeller]

How much time & effort does it take to fill VFR and avoid any delays or reroutes?

No time at all. I guess I'm really just curious how a VFR flight plan is of any real help to ATC. In my limited flying, I have never heard them ask if anyone has "filed" VFR before departure. I've never been through a TFR, so maybe that changes when you do expect to transition. What if you need to deviate and that takes you into TFR airspace? Do I need to amend the flight plan via FSS? I would think that ATC would merely want to know your destination before approving transition.

 

[Ravioli]

Not all TFR's are created equally, but I know the first time I flew in to College Station when a "Stadium TFR" was in effect and I was a bit unsure of the process. Controller was very chill. I called up "Bugdestroyer 666, in bound to land, is the TFR still in effect?" and said "BD666, We got you, come on in"

OP's question is good to ask. Not just the first time, but every time. Things change, people learn.

Fly safe.

 

[Caramon13]

It says active IFR or filed VFR plan, so does that not mean you can just file the flight plan and not activate it? You still need the squawk code but you're doing that anyhow with flight following. Just one more step, not necessarily two.

<waiting for the inevitable discussion around the visibility of filed VFR flight plans in the system>

 

[Velocity173]

<waiting for the inevitable discussion around the visibility of filed VFR flight plans in the system>

Unless you file IFR and put a VFR altitude in the block, it's not going to ATC. They can dial up FSS to check but I doubt they'd even go through the trouble.

 

[Shawn]

No time at all. I guess I'm really just curious how a VFR flight plan is of any real help to ATC.

The VFR flight plan portion of the TFR requirement is not of help to just ATC with transitions...the boys (and girls) in Cheyenne Mountain are also watching over the airspace for VIP TFR's. It is not ATC that scrambles the intercept jets.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Unless you file IFR and put a VFR altitude in the block, it's not going to ATC. They can dial up FSS to check but I doubt they'd even go through the trouble.

^^^ This.

Prior to a recent transit of a TTFR (Trump TFR), FSS informed me that ATC had no way of even pulling up my VFR flight plan, and it did not officially have to be activated, but only on file.

I did not activate it per their advice, and grabbed FF later on the fly. No issue.

 

[bmoeller]

the boys (and girls) in Cheyenne Mountain are also watching over the airspace for VIP TFR's

Didn't even think about that. Went searching for info and came across this vid. Nothing too special, but the one stat surprised me (@ 1:05). NORAD has one tactical action every 6hrs inside TFRs

 

[Caramon13]

Unless you file IFR and put a VFR altitude in the block, it's not going to ATC. They can dial up FSS to check but I doubt they'd even go through the trouble.

^^^ This.

Prior to a recent transit of a TTFR (Trump TFR), FSS informed me that ATC had no way of even pulling up my VFR flight plan, and it did not officially have to be activated, but only on file.

I did not activate it per their advice, and grabbed FF later on the fly. No issue.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, the ATC Flight Data Input Output (FIDO) computer isn't configured to accept VFRs. Even if it were, it would be an abbreviated version like an IFR. That's no pilot name, color aircraft, SOBs, etc.

ATC requires IFRs because they NEED to issue an IFR clearance to an aircraft operating in controlled airspace. You could do without one but it sure helps to have a strip pop up 30 minutes prior to ETD vs nothing in the system.

Minus SFRA, DVFR and a few types of military operations, ATC doesn't NEED a VFR flight strip for anything. The technique of filing IFR and putting VFR in the altitude block and FF in remarks works but the CC (Goodish letter) frowns upon it. Probably not find a single controller that has an issue with that technique though.

Now, there is a non controlling position at ARTCCs that can access a VFR flight plan but that is for SAR purposes. The controller on position doesn't have that. Neither do approach controllers, local controllers or their little flight data / tower coordinator dudes.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Well, the ATC Flight Data Input Output (FIDO) isn't configured to accept VFRs. Even if it were, it would be an abbreviated version like an IFR. That's no pilot name, color aircraft, SOBs, etc.

ATC requires IFRs because they NEED to issue an IFR clearance to an aircraft operating in controlled airspace. You could do without one but it sure helps to have a strip pop up 30 minutes prior to ETD vs nothing in the system.

Minus SFRA, DVFR and a few types of military operations, ATC doesn't NEED a VFR flight strip for anything. The technique of filing IFR and putting VFR in the altitude block and FF in remarks works but the CC (Goodish letter) frowns upon it. Probably not find a single controller that has an issue with that technique though.

Now, there is a non controlling position at ARTCCs that can access a VFR flight plan but that is for SAR purposes. The controller on position doesn't have that. Neither do approach controllers, local controllers or their little flight data / tower coordinator dudes.

Thanks for the explanation.

No popcorn even required.

 

[Clark1961]

The VFR flight plan portion of the TFR requirement is not of help to just ATC with transitions...the boys (and girls) in Cheyenne Mountain are also watching over the airspace for VIP TFR's. It is not ATC that scrambles the intercept jets.

No one in Cheyenne Mountain watching anything but the TV these days. Ops have moved to Peterson.

 

[bmoeller]

Minus SFRA, DVFR and a few types of military operations, ATC doesn't NEED a VFR flight strip for anything.

Thanks for that information. So I'm still not understanding the need for VFR filing into TFRs. If ATC doesn't really receive that data outside of SARs necessity, who (if anyone) is using that data? Is it merely an attempt to try and coax the pilot into getting a briefing prior to departure and seeing that TFR?

 

[catmandu]

Thanks for that information. So I'm still not understanding the need for VFR filing into TFRs. If ATC doesn't really receive that data outside of SARs necessity, who (if anyone) is using that data? Is it merely an attempt to try and coax the pilot into getting a briefing prior to departure and seeing that TFR?

It has always been my assumption that the Forces Of Darkness (FOD) have some way to interact with those that hold the flight plan information so that if you start to act squirrelly ("request direct Mar-a-Lago") they can pull up your name, rank, and serial number to see if you're on the no fly list. Or something like that, just another line item in their targeting checklist. If you did not have a VFR flight plan on file, your risk factor would be higher. But if you never do anything suspicious, lack of a flight plan would never be noticed.

 

[Velocity173]

Thanks for that information. So I'm still not understanding the need for VFR filing into TFRs. If ATC doesn't really receive that data outside of SARs necessity, who (if anyone) is using that data? Is it merely an attempt to try and coax the pilot into getting a briefing prior to departure and seeing that TFR?

I don't know I'd call it a need, just a requirement. I don't see it as an important safety requirement though. I know we've had at least one controller on here that said just comm establishment was fine with him. I'd be willing to bet the majority of controllers apply the same logic.

I've flown into both AF1 and AF2 TFRs while MEDEVAC with no flight plan on file. There's no added security benefit in filing.

 

[mkosmo]

I don't know I'd call it a need, just a requirement. I don't see it as an important safety requirement though. I know we've had at least one controller on here that said just comm establishment was fine with him. I'd be willing to bet the majority of controllers apply the same logic.

I've flown into both AF1 and AF2 TFRs while MEDEVAC with no flight plan on file. There's no added security benefit in filing.

There's a specific exemption (even for the inner ring) for "approved" air ambulance flights.

 

[onezuludelta]

Would it take that much longer to go around it?

 

[Velocity173]

There's a specific exemption (even for the inner ring) for "approved" air ambulance flights.

Obviously, but I'm referring to the requirement of a flight plan on file for a security benefit.

If someone wants to do harm, they could easily make up a MEDEVAC, military or law enforcement callsign and penetrate. How far they penetrate is debatable but the flight plan requirement won't help the situation. Pilot could lie on that as well.

 

[mkosmo]

Obviously, but I'm referring to the requirement of a flight plan on file for a security benefit.

If someone wants to do harm, they could easily make up a MEDEVAC, military or law enforcement callsign and penetrate. How far they penetrate is debatable but the flight plan requirement won't help the situation. Pilot could lie on that as well.

Agreed on every count.

It's all security theater, but I thought it was worth mentioning that even congress knew there'd be backlash if they didn't let a medevac flight in lol

 

[apr911]

I am currently flying out of N51 which is shutdown during the TFR and 47N which is about as close to the 10NM inner-ring no-fly-zone (there is no primary airport or port of entry airport or airports with scheduled service in the inner-ring thus it really is a practical no-fly zone) without being in it. Operations are allowed at 47N however while the TFR is active, the traffic pattern for runway 07 has been notam'd and changed to a right pattern. Its conceivably possible to fly a left pattern for 07 if you keep it tight but there's little extra room and there is no good way to enter a left pattern.

This isn't my first foray into a presidential TFR. I flew into Fullerton (KFUL) in the Los Angeles area while Obama was in town but it is the closest I've come to the inner ring to date (there are some GA pilots who have gone through the trouble of scheduling with the TSA and consenting to a TSA search of their plane at an airport-of-entry in order to access the primary, inner-ring airport and have successfully flown into and out of the primary airport in the inner ring; most notably when President Obama would take his summer vacations in Martha's Vineyard (KMVY)... just search youtube).

Anyway, the Secret Service has been out to the airport multiple times and after multiple pilot briefings and conversations with the FBO owner I believe anyone wishing the to fly the TFR would benefit from the FAA training on the DC SFRA (which is required for anyone flying within 60nm of DC) as, with the exception of the defined "gates" and permanence of the DC SFRA, many of the procedures are the same or similar.

The bottom line is the Secret Service is aware of the burden the TFR causes, particularly Trump's TFR in Bedminister since it sits in the middle of the highly trafficked North-eastern corridor and is not by any stretch "non-disruptive" or "out-of-the-way" in the way that either Obama's trips to Martha's Vineyard or Bush's trips to his Texas Ranch were. They are working with all involved to make this as painless as possible and I've even heard rumor that they are allowing the banner operators out of 47N to continue to conduct their operations which is a first.


This is the general gist of the outer ring TFR.

The secret service want's all flights traveling in the TFR to use predictable expedited routes to their destination and the best way to predict the route is to file a flight plan. You are not required to open the flight plan and ATC will not open it for you unless you specifically ask.

All operations within the TFR require you to be on a discrete transponder code prior to entry and you cannot loiter in the area. Operations to/from airports within the TFR do require a flight plan but it does not have to be active; again its about predictable routing and altitudes. You also should remain on your transponder code even while operating on the ground (I call NY TRACON to request my transponder code before engine start and my transponder is an older analog/dial set code so my code is in the box before it even powers on and it stays in the box until I am clear of the TFR or until I've shutdown)

Transit Operations are technically on a workload permitting basis but given the location of this TFR, transit operations are a common occurrence. For transit operations, the secret service would like there to be a filed flight plan but as others have pointed out, you can often get by without. You again are not permitted to loiter and you should fly the most direct routing permitted by the TFR, airspace and your equipment so as to minimize the time spent in the TFR.

It's up to you if you want to file a flight plan for transit operations but its not all that much more work to file a VFR flight plan and it will likely make for an easier transition and avoid being denied by ATC as a pop-up flight. I especially recommend filing the flight plan if your most direct routing will take you into/through/near the 10nm inner core as they're going to want to know how you plan to avoid it.

I just flew VFR this weekend from 47N to KMGJ in New York and ATC thanked me for my well defined routing around the inner core via radials off a VOR station; whether they actually knew my routing or if this thanks was passed on from someone/somewhere else I dont know but it seems in haste to get off the ground, some people have just been filing "direct" flight plans that take them through the inner core which doesn't help the effort to have "predictable routes" when you are ad-hoc flying around the "no-fly zone."

Keep in mind that while ATC may not normally receive VFR flight plan information, you are not following normal procedures in the TFR; that not to say that ATC is receiving your flight plan just that there is a whole host of other government entities operating in a coordinated manner to provide security for the POTUS, any number of which may be able to access your flight plan. I have not personally heard of anyone being intercepted for flying something other than filed in the flight plan but again, is it really such a burden to take the 5 minutes to file?

Personally, I file every XC flight though I rarely open them when flying VFR (night, open water, mountains and wilderness being some of my exceptions for opening) but in the event something were to happen, the existence of an unopened flight plan at least gives SAR a place to start their search and general idea of which way I was headed. Seems ridiculous to me the number of people flying around with absolutely no documentation or indication of which direction they plan to head.

 

[murphey]

Well, the ATC Flight Data Input Output (FIDO) computer isn't configured to accept VFRs. Even if it were, it would be an abbreviated version like an IFR. That's no pilot name, color aircraft, SOBs, etc.

ATC requires IFRs because they NEED to issue an IFR clearance to an aircraft operating in controlled airspace. You could do without one but it sure helps to have a strip pop up 30 minutes prior to ETD vs nothing in the system.

Minus SFRA, DVFR and a few types of military operations, ATC doesn't NEED a VFR flight strip for anything. The technique of filing IFR and putting VFR in the altitude block and FF in remarks works but the CC (Goodish letter) frowns upon it. Probably not find a single controller that has an issue with that technique though.

Now, there is a non controlling position at ARTCCs that can access a VFR flight plan but that is for SAR purposes. The controller on position doesn't have that. Neither do approach controllers, local controllers or their little flight data / tower coordinator dudes.

Out here with the big rocks, it"s recommended we file VFR when going around/over the mountains and make reports so that CAP knows where to look for the wreckage.

 

[murphey]

No one in Cheyenne Mountain watching anything but the TV these days. Ops have moved to Peterson.

NORAD ops has moved to Peterson, but there's still a small contingent inside the mountain. Just in case they need to film another Stargate movie.

 

[Velocity173]

Out here with the big rocks, it"s recommended we file VFR when going around/over the mountains and make reports so that CAP knows where to look for the wreckage.

No doubt, filing VFR in remote areas is important for SAR. But, that's goes back to the original premise of VFR flight plans. They're designed for FSS to assist in SAR. Unless an ARTCC as I mentioned above, your typical ATC facility doesn't have a need for a VFR.

We could say, well why not send them VFRs anyway for FF purposes? Well, you'd have strips sitting on the board that never get utilized because not everyone that files wants FF and in some areas due to lack of coverage can't be provided anyway. Even if the VFRs were sent to ATC, FF is workload permitting anyway so just because one filed, doesn't mean they automatically get the service.

So, like I said, it all boils down to ATC needs. For the majority of ops, they don't need a VFR for ATC purposes.

 

[bmoeller]

@apr911 Thanks for sharing that info. I plan on filing and routing north a bit to a give a little more buffer between me and the inner circle. The whole idea behind the original post and question was to better understand the WHY's to filing (how does it help?) and if there are alternative procedures others use to transition the airspace. I like flying by the books, but it's worth knowing alternative means if the need arises.

47N is as close as you can get to that center ring...ha! I can't recall the airport, but I read that one of the TFR affected airports ferried 10 or so of it's aircraft to a neighboring airport (20 miles away) so they could continue with flight training and other TFR prohibiting operations. Ugh.

 

[BigBadLou]

Alright, related question.
I will be visiting NYC in 2 weeks, during this TFR over Solberg. (sorry, local guys, I know it sucks)
I would like to go from Linden (KLVJ) to an air-show up north at NY94. (right on the Hudson)
The outer ring of the TFR covers the whole Verrazano bridge, no exceptions. That closes the Hudson river VFR corridor to all sight-seeing operations squawking 1200 and on the CTAF.

Question: do I need to be on FF and ask for the SkyLine route above 1200' to do the Hudson river transition then?

 

[StinkBug]

When Obama was in office I flew to Cape Cod during one of his annual vacations to Martha's Vineyard. I called Cape Approach beforehand to make sure I did everything correctly. They told me that as long as I was talking and had a discrete squawk code I was fine inside the outer ring. VFR flight plans only go to flight service, not ATC, so they really don't do much good anyways, you still need to be squawking and talking either way. The wording of the TFR always confuses everyone, but the intent is that you be in contact with ATC at all times, and specifically identified to them on radar so they know who you are and what you're doing. Not difficult in the least.

 

[Clark1961]

When Obama was in office I flew to Cape Cod during one of his annual vacations to Martha's Vineyard. I called Cape Approach beforehand to make sure I did everything correctly. They told me that as long as I was talking and had a discrete squawk code I was fine inside the outer ring. VFR flight plans only go to flight service, not ATC, so they really don't do much good anyways, you still need to be squawking and talking either way. The wording of the TFR always confuses everyone, but the intent is that you be in contact with ATC at all times, and specifically identified to them on radar so they know who you are and what you're doing. Not difficult in the least.

Not difficult but can be a pain in the butt. ATC was telling me to get away when I got within a couple miles of the inner ring of a president's TFR. It effectively increased the size of the inner ring.

Don't they know I have low altitude chemtrails to deliver? Someone should coordinate this stuff better. Okay, the inner ring put me many miles (like about 12) miles off course so I was cutting it as close as I could. The TFRs have nothing to do with safety or security so honor the letter of the TFR and move on. ATC said nu-unh, get further away.

 

[jordane93]

Alright, related question.
I will be visiting NYC in 2 weeks, during this TFR over Solberg. (sorry, local guys, I know it sucks)
I would like to go from Linden (KLVJ) to an air-show up north at NY94. (right on the Hudson)
The outer ring of the TFR covers the whole Verrazano bridge, no exceptions. That closes the Hudson river VFR corridor to all sight-seeing operations squawking 1200 and on the CTAF.

Question: do I need to be on FF and ask for the SkyLine route above 1200' to do the Hudson river transition then?

Yes just talk to approach and they'll give you a code.

 

[Justin M]

When I file a VFR flight plan, I specify the time I plan to depart. How accurate does my departure time on the VFR flight plan need to be? Remember, I'm not activating the plan, I'm just filing.

There are some variables in my preflight that might change the departure time plus or minus 60 minutes. I can split the difference to maybe plus or minus 30 minutes.

The returning portion is could be even more variable as to when I will be departing my "outside-the-ring" airport for the return to my home airport inside the 30 mile outer ring. This one stresses me less because I think I can file enroute to my ingress airport. I've never done that, but I'm not afraid to try.

The issue is complicated because the co-pilot for my trip does not like EFBs and has already warned me against mounting my ipad on the yoke.

Ideas? Thoughts?

 

[Shawn]

The issue is complicated because the co-pilot for my trip does not like EFBs and has already warned me against mounting my ipad on the yoke.

Ideas? Thoughts?

Thoughts?...indicate to your little friend who will be Pilot in Command of that flight