Test-flying airplanes

TexasAviation

TexasAviation

Pre-takeoff checklist
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TexasAviation
I'm getting closer to starting to seriously shop for my first plane, and my wife just brought up a good point:

"I don't want you test-flying airplanes when you don't know how well they've been taken care of!"

That made me realize that 1) I don't know how the process works when you're shopping for a plane. I know I want to get a VERY thorough pre-buy inspection done by a mechanic I trust (not connected to the aircraft owner). Beyond that, when I find a plane I'm seriously interested in, do I ask the seller to take me up for a flight to see how I like it? Is that normal?

And 2), how do I know the plane is even safe to fly in? Do I get an A&P to check it out first, or look at the logbooks, to make sure I'm not going up in a death trap? Just because it's had an annual in the last 12 months doesn't mean there's not a serious problem with it today — and a dishonest seller obviously wouldn't want to let on if there was one.

I don't know why it never dawned on me before now, but there's a lot more to think about with a demo flight in a used plane than there is when test-driving a used car.
 
It's whatever you can work out. Get as much info as you can over the phone and by email (logs etc). Call the mechanic that did the annual and talk to him. Then what I did was to go to the owners airport and fly it WITH the owner and while we flew it I checked all the avionics and other equipment to verify it works. If its in annual and the owner is willing to fly it, I figure its safe enough for me too.
Then using YOUR mechanic look for corrosion and give it a compression test and whatever other inspections you want to do.
I don't think I would consider buying an airplane that wasn't in annual and the owner or some owner's representative wouldn't fly in it. If the owner isnt flying with you, the plane probably has no insurance coverage. If its not in annual...yuk, I keep looking.

Something about selling used anything, the current owner's representation is usually optimistic. They play games, and they are THEIR games, which is to get YOU to buy their airplane. Beware.

But if everything works (or you know the ones that dont and they arent airworthy), there isn't signifigant corrosion (there is usually a little somewhere), and its in annual and the owner will fly it, well thats a pretty good recomendation.
 
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I've never flown a plane before I bought it and never allowed a buyer to fly one I was selling. You have a mechanic inspect it, negotiate deficiencies and repair expenses with the seller, make the deal, and once that's done? It's all on you. Airworthy doesn't mean perfect and you won't find a perfect airplane. Buy the best one you can afford and deal with the surprises like every other owner does.
 
When I bought mine the owner and I took it up, he let me fly it, run it through the basics.. Stalls, straight/fast/slow flight.. We landed and sealed the deal.
 
Well you rent planes and you don't exactly know how well they have been cared for.

I've never bought a plane I didn't first fly, no matter how good your mechanic nothing is more accurate and easy than taking a plane up and seeing how she compared to the book, how she flys hands off, how the avionics work, if she like to drops one wing in a stall, etc.

Just comes down to judgement.
 
Stewartb said:
I've never flown a plane before I bought it and never allowed a buyer to fly one I was selling. You have a mechanic inspect it, negotiate deficiencies and repair expenses with the seller, make the deal, and once that's done? It's all on you. Airworthy doesn't mean perfect and you won't find a perfect airplane. Buy the best one you can afford and deal with the surprises like every other owner does.
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So how does your mechanic check avionics functioning if you don't fly it before you buy it?
 
Stewartb said:
I've never flown a plane before I bought it and never allowed a buyer to fly one I was selling. You have a mechanic inspect it, negotiate deficiencies and repair expenses with the seller, make the deal, and once that's done? It's all on you. Airworthy doesn't mean perfect and you won't find a perfect airplane. Buy the best one you can afford and deal with the surprises like every other owner does.
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Well, you won't sell an airplane to me like that. I don't buy cars (new or used) without test driving them first, either.
 
TexasAviation said:
I'm getting closer to starting to seriously shop for my first plane, and my wife just brought up a good point:

"I don't want you test-flying airplanes when you don't know how well they've been taken care of!"

That made me realize that 1) I don't know how the process works when you're shopping for a plane. I know I want to get a VERY thorough pre-buy inspection done by a mechanic I trust (not connected to the aircraft owner). Beyond that, when I find a plane I'm seriously interested in, do I ask the seller to take me up for a flight to see how I like it? Is that normal?

And 2), how do I know the plane is even safe to fly in? Do I get an A&P to check it out first, or look at the logbooks, to make sure I'm not going up in a death trap? Just because it's had an annual in the last 12 months doesn't mean there's not a serious problem with it today — and a dishonest seller obviously wouldn't want to let on if there was one.

I don't know why it never dawned on me before now, but there's a lot more to think about with a demo flight in a used plane than there is when test-driving a used car.
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Start by asking how much the airplane has been flown in recent months and the past year or two. If it's been sitting that's a caution flag.

Next step I look over the logbooks myself, and make notes. Copy those entries you want to discuss with your mechanic before you start spending serious money on a pre-purchase inspection. You are looking for AD compliance, level and consistency of routine maintenance like oil changes, indications of damage history and repairs, anything that looks out of the ordinary. If the logs raise too many questions I don't go any further.

Every plane I have purchased had to be flown to the location where I wanted the pre-purchase done, so that flight was used to function check the radios/nav, intercom, gyro, engine & other instruments, autopilot and so forth. You can negotiate anything, but normally the buyer pays for that flight (and to return the airplane if no deal is closed).
 
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GRG55 said:
So how does your mechanic check avionics functioning if you don't fly it before you buy it?
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I fly basic panels in stol utility airplanes. Big engines, big props, big tires. The rest is less important.
 
Stewartb said:
I fly basic panels in stol utility airplanes. Big engines, big props, big tires. The rest is less important.
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Got it. Thanks for clarification. I should have guessed from your pic.
 
You won't know what you don't know. The owner may not either. . .do some of the things the previous posters suggested to reduce the risk. But they call it "flying", not "safe in bed".

Personal opinion, I'd want to fly it some, and have the owner with me.
 
In my mind, this goes back to the private pilot knowledge test:

The airworthiness of an aircraft can be determined by a preflight inspection and a
A) log book endorsement from a flight instructor.
B) review of the maintenance records.
C) statement from the owner or operator that the aircraft is airworthy.

Assuming you got this easy one right previously, I agree with others' suggestions of the more practical airworthiness litmus test: Assuming he has an intact self-preservation instinct, if the seller will go flying with you in the plane it tells you two useful things: (1) he trusts the plane with his life and (2) he is not trying too hard to hide defects in the plane's flight characteristics. If he won't get in the thing and starts shivering uncontrollably just looking at it, you should probably not test fly that particular aircraft.
 
The only plane I might not test fly is a brand new one. Otherwise, yes, I'm going on a test flight.
 
And from the opposite side, I looked in person at 5-6 planes while shopping, never was offered a test flight.

I am pretty sure, when I get ready to sell, if someone travels to see my plane, and they seem interested, they will be putting a headset and seatbelt on and going for a ride.
 
I think the test flight is a good idea, after reviewing the maintenance logs and a discussion with the seller/demo pilot. In the case of the last aircraft I bought, I had never flown or ridden in one of the type.
 
The test flight is an opportunity to make sure that everything works (unless placarded INOP), that the plane flies straight and level hands off. And that any performance numbers the seller quoted aren't too optimistic. Does it match the POH?
 
I couldn't imagine buying my first plane without flying it first. Maybe my 10th plane, if I really trusted the seller and the A&P doing the inspection. But I want to feel it firsthand.

JoseCuervo said:
I am pretty sure, when I get ready to sell, if someone travels to see my plane, and they seem interested, they will be putting a headset and seatbelt on and going for a ride.
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Sounds like you know how to sell airplanes! A good plane will sell itself on a demo flight, I'd think. As long as the buyer is serious.
 
A good plane sells itself with a phone call or two. Truth told, my last couple of planes weren't for sale when called the owners about buying them and the last couple I sold weren't for sale when the buyers called me to see if I'd let them go.
 
Very first plane I looked at went flying with the owner, a pilot of 50 years. After 10 minutes out the vacuum pump quit, then he asked me if I knew the way back to the landing strip. It was a private strip out in the boondocks, but I was paying attention and knew where we were. Got us back ok and turned out he had the first stages of àlzhiemers
. Plane flew well, but smelled fuel before we landed. Needless to say I passed on the plane and learned a lot. Always try to know who you will be flying with, check the plane thoroughly. Years later when I sold my first plane I flew it to the buyer, let his mechanic perform a prebuy, then we went for a ride. Took some time but worked out well. He did all the due diligence before I flew it to him. Both of us were happy and safe.
 
I purchased my plane sight unseen... and not flown!.. My Dad and brother, both pilots, looked it over, a very complete pre-buy inspection, and some items worked before and after the sale.... the plane was located in So Oregon, so with weather and all it was hard to go pick it up... finally found a window, went up and waited for the fog to clear.. 2 days of waiting. Finally it lifted, went up for 20 min with an instructor who had flown the plane before. 2 stalls, steep turns, slow flight and one landing..

An hour later I left for my first X-country in 20 years... and first solo flight in 20 years.. after 15 hours flying with a CFI here in So Cal to be back into the saddle.. 3 hours to central California, stopped at a great little airport for the night, and great gas prices, then 2 hours to KEMT, Home!,,, made it in my new to me airplane, and what a great first flight!... the next day I flew my wife and daughter to Tucson AZ to see Grandma!... and back same day... what a great thing it is to have this airplane.... and with 20 hours in it I still think it is the best plane I have ever flown..

So some will insist on flying it first.. that did not work out for me, as I would have not make it up to make the flight before putting money on the plane. may not be the best plan, but it was the best plan for Me..
 
TexasAviation said:
I'm getting closer to starting to seriously shop for my first plane, and my wife just brought up a good point:

"I don't want you test-flying airplanes when you don't know how well they've been taken care of!"

That made me realize that 1) I don't know how the process works when you're shopping for a plane. I know I want to get a VERY thorough pre-buy inspection done by a mechanic I trust (not connected to the aircraft owner). Beyond that, when I find a plane I'm seriously interested in, do I ask the seller to take me up for a flight to see how I like it? Is that normal?

And 2), how do I know the plane is even safe to fly in? Do I get an A&P to check it out first, or look at the logbooks, to make sure I'm not going up in a death trap? Just because it's had an annual in the last 12 months doesn't mean there's not a serious problem with it today — and a dishonest seller obviously wouldn't want to let on if there was one.

I don't know why it never dawned on me before now, but there's a lot more to think about with a demo flight in a used plane than there is when test-driving a used car.
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Buyers in this category should just buy new.
 
Have you heard this story? Guy goes to buy an experimental. Asks the owner if he can fly it. Owner says sure, go ahead. So he takes it out and starts his takeoff and aborts it and comes back. "It just didnt feel right" he says. "Have the other pilots that flew it said if it flew all right?" "No" said the owner. "You're the first one that ever tried to fly it".
 
bikert said:
The only plane I might not test fly is a brand new one. Otherwise, yes, I'm going on a test flight.
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If you're buying brand new and you didn't get a demo flight from the dealer or manufacturer, I'd have to ask why you didn't. They hand those flights out like candy... so if you're going to drop that kind of cash, you sure better get a flight.
 
I've test flown planes. Usually with the owner in the left seat. I was pretty good at landing Navions from the right. I certainly flew my plane, from the left seat (I had an instructor in the right) prior to accepting the plane I bought.
 
flyingron said:
I've test flown planes. Usually with the owner in the left seat. I was pretty good at landing Navions from the right. I certainly flew my plane, from the left seat (I had an instructor in the right) prior to accepting the plane I bought.
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Also seeing how the old owner handled, or manhandled the aircraft is almost as important as how it handles anyway.
 
mkosmo said:
If you're buying brand new and you didn't get a demo flight from the dealer or manufacturer, I'd have to ask why you didn't. They hand those flights out like candy... so if you're going to drop that kind of cash, you sure better get a flight.
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Yes, true, but you don't buy the demo, not usually anyway.
 
I traveled to several to check them out, and didn't really need to fly. Owners all covered up info. previously requested. Had one owner hold out on a log book that indicated an off-airport landing in 8 feet of salt water ... same plane had a "sudden" engine stop 200 hours after a previous engine replacement with no inspection on the second event. Was ****ed at the last one because of travel expenses and the response was,"I didn't think you come out to look if I told you.":mad:

The Tiger in the avatar was purchased from a partnership that bought a Twin. As it was due for annual the week I called they agreed to annual it at FletchAIR near San Antonio (Tiger specialists) and agreement was reached that once it cleared annual and was airworthy with them picking up discrepencies, the deal would occur. Funds were at AOPA for the purchase so they knew I was serious. Never flew it before picking it up ... I love this plane.
 
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