Tesla

[Alexb2000]

I just got back from dinner with a couple of friends that just bought a Tesla.

All I can say is..... WOW!!!!

I always viewed hybrid/electric vehicles as utilitarian, low operating cost, eco-transport. I have never used the word sexy to describe any electric vehicle until today. This thing is Aston Martin sexy and just as fast, try 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.

The multi-function screen on that thing could double as my television, it is HUGE. Your driving along watching your progress on Google earth, fully connected. Fully integrated touch screen controls all done via downloaded programing that is updated by the factory whenever they want to add new features, etc. Just an awesome use of technology that makes you wonder what everyone else in the car industry is doing (the answer is following, way behind).

I am an old gear head and I love petroleum power. I though the lack of engine sound would make an electric car... well neutered. Nope, I just didn't miss it or anything else about a normal car.

The fit and finish is on par with any high end luxury car if not better. Aluminum body, huge stainless brakes, front AND rear trunks, great seats, etc.

Our friends just put a solar array on their house so this thing is basically free to operate. Think about all the maintenance you do to your car, engine, transmission, etc. none of that exists on this car. Kind of mind blowing when you think about it.

Line up ANY Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, etc. (I've owned my share) I would rather have a Tesla. I am going to start looking at their stock much more seriously also, they really may be the Apple of the automotive industry.

Thoughts?

 

[madtrader]

After seeing my first S model (I've seen several of that roadster, didn't care too much about it) at the Tesla store I realized that this was a serious piece of machinery. I've seen a few driving around town here and I really like them. I'd love to get a test drive.

 

[Alexb2000]

After seeing my first S model (I've seen several of that roadster, didn't care too much about it) at the Tesla store I realized that this was a serious piece of machinery. I've seen a few driving around town here and I really like them. I'd love to get a test drive.

This was the S model with the big motor, errr scratch that, battery pack.

The speed is really breath taking. You take off in that thing, no noise, no gear shifting, just smooth seemingly endless power. Kind of like flying a lightly loaded turbine, without the Jet-A bill.

My friends drove one in Florida. They want a $5K refundable deposit to drive one. They said everyone that they talked to that drove one the same day, bought one.

 

[CaptLabrador]

I've wanted a model S since I first saw them.

And don't forget. Preferred parking at most major parking garages

 

[Aeric]

I see 'em EVERYWHERE here in the bay area. Very cool cars!

 

[No Joy]

....Our friends just put a solar array on their house so this thing is basically free to operate. Think about all the maintenance you do to your car, engine, transmission, etc. none of that exists on this car. Kind of mind blowing when you think about it.....

Sounds a bit like a pipe dream to me.

It would have to be a pretty big, expensive solar array to keep up with much driving. Tesla recommends 70 amp, 240 volt service. To keep the solar system small, it would likely need a battery to store energy in-between charging the car.

Batteries don’t last forever and can be quit expensive. But those that can afford a tesla, ought to be able to afford a battery. About 10K.

The maintenance costs are likely to be less, but still be a considerable cost. There is a honeymoon with most new cars, but the older they get the more maintenance they will need. They will probably take much less maintenance, but still require a significant amount of maintenance.

If you have enough money to spend 100K on a car, you ought to be able to afford additional costs.

 

[timwinters]

My nephew just bought one. He's coming home in it this weekend for my mom's 100th BD party. Portland to St. Louis. Should be interesting for him. I can't wait to see it & drive it.

 

[Jim_R]

They're very nice cars. Also, quite expensive. It's still a machine, and it will still require maintenance...golf carts don't run forever, and these are loads more complicated than golf carts. Also, if your friends installed enough solar capacity to keep them completely off the grid (so that charging the car is "free"), the solar installation wasn't free. Even with big kickbacks, that's not cheap.

Today, you don't go green because it's cheaper, or everyone would be doing it. You go green because it's what you want to do...kinda like flying.

 

[Ted]

I don't like having the A model of just about anything, simply because improvements will be made over time. I also dispute the "free" energy. Now, excess solar power can be sold back to the power company and then retrieved when charging the car, so a battery pack wouldn't necessarily be required. But when we priced a solar array for our house, we figured $15-20k with a payoff of about 10-20 years, so it was easily a shelved idea. We also live in a bad area for solar - Dallas would be a better place for it.

Calling an electric car "green" ignores the battery aspect, which is quite horribly polluting. I do see some benefits, but I'm sticking with a vehicle than can burn gasoline. We might do the CNG conversion. That seems to have a 2-3 year payoff with much lower initial investment.

 

[Alexb2000]

Sounds a bit like a pipe dream to me.

It would have to be a pretty big, expensive solar array to keep up with much driving. Tesla recommends 70 amp, 240 volt service. To keep the solar system small, it would likely need a battery to store energy in-between charging the car.

Might be a pipe dream, but drive one and see if you still think so. I would have agreed with you prior to yesterday.

My nephew just bought one. He's coming home in it this weekend for my mom's 100th BD party. Portland to St. Louis. Should be interesting for him. I can't wait to see it & drive it.

Cross country driving seems like it is still a big challenge. I agree should be interesting.

They're very nice cars. Also, quite expensive. It's still a machine, and it will still require maintenance...golf carts don't run forever, and these are loads more complicated than golf carts. Also, if your friends installed enough solar capacity to keep them completely off the grid (so that charging the car is "free"), the solar installation wasn't free. Even with big kickbacks, that's not cheap.

Today, you don't go green because it's cheaper, or everyone would be doing it. You go green because it's what you want to do...kinda like flying.

They don't pencil out if cheap driving is the goal so of course you're right. I am just amazed that my anti-electric car attitude could be changed in a couple of hours. Shows that this kind of technology can at least compete.

They have a 40 panel grid tie array and they estimate a zero cost of electric even with the Tesla. We are talking about Taos, NM so no A/C in houses or other high electric loads to begin with.

Time will tell with the maintenance issues. I would say all the drama about the Pirus' maintenance cost has proven to be overblown. When I think about our last Mercedes, that thing made a cabin class twin look cheap to operate, so there is a lot of room for Tesla to work with IMO.

 

[ClimbnSink]

The multi-function screen on that thing could double as my television, it is HUGE. Your driving along watching your progress on Google earth, fully connected.

We have to share the road with these people watching tv while driving, We're all going to die. Is it worse then driving with a zombie phone?

 

[Ted]

Cross country driving seems like it is still a big challenge. I agree should be interesting.

I wonder about that. I used to agree when I was a road warrior. Now I have a very different lifestyle where road trips are non-existent. How many people who have a Mercedes S-Class take it on a long trip? I don't know. Also, since most families have more than one car, they only need one of the cars to be usable for a trip. So if the husband has an electric car and wife doesn't, that still works out just fine when they need to go see Aunt Thelma.

 

[Alexb2000]

I don't like having the A model of just about anything, simply because improvements will be made over time. I also dispute the "free" energy. Now, excess solar power can be sold back to the power company and then retrieved when charging the car, so a battery pack wouldn't necessarily be required. But when we priced a solar array for our house, we figured $15-20k with a payoff of about 10-20 years, so it was easily a shelved idea. We also live in a bad area for solar - Dallas would be a better place for it.

Calling an electric car "green" ignores the battery aspect, which is quite horribly polluting. I do see some benefits, but I'm sticking with a vehicle than can burn gasoline. We might do the CNG conversion. That seems to have a 2-3 year payoff with much lower initial investment.

BUT... a performance car guy like you would have been impressed. Not a lot of 4 door, 5 person vehicles that can do 4.2 seconds bone stock under $100K.

They have already downloaded several operating system updates, which fixed bugs and gave more options. The service model if required is they bring a replacement car to your house and take yours away, so you are not inconvenienced. It is a different way to think about car maintenance.

We are in Taos now and the solar array was in part built for the tax credits. Between fed and NM state it's quite a bit of money. Does the payback compute, nope, not unless electricity gets a lot more expensive (but it's still interesting).

 

[Ted]

BUT... a performance car guy like you would have been impressed. Not a lot of 4 door, 5 person vehicles that can do 4.2 seconds bone stock under $100K.

Oh sure, but my Mitsubishi can do the same despite being 20 years old and costing me about $10k with upgrades.

I would like to drive one.

They have already downloaded several operating system updates, which fixed bugs and gave more options. The service model if required is they bring a replacement car to your house and take yours away, so you are not inconvenienced. It is a different way to think about car maintenance.

Sure, but for the price I think it makes sense.

We are in Taos now and the solar array was in part built for the tax credits. Between fed and NM state it's quite a bit of money. Does the payback compute, nope, not unless electricity gets a lot more expensive (but it's still interesting).

To me you do something like this both because it has some payback financially and because you want to. Realistically on the CNG conversion we'll save some money, but I suspect that it'll get offset by maintenance of the natural gas components and home refueling station. It's interesting to me for a few reasons, though. First it's different and fun, second it's supposed to be cleaner (less junk in the oil, theoretically a more reliable engine), but also we live in a city with terrible air quality (CNG is cleaner burning for sure) and I would much rather support the domestic CNG movement than foreign oil with my dollars. I can't make the same arguments with solar.

 

[timwinters]

Sounds a bit like a pipe dream to me..

Every generation has its visionaries and it's naysayers. I'm glad the naysayers didn't win 100+ years ago or none of us would be flying. I'm equally confident that the naysayers won't win this one either and screw it up for the next generation.

 

[Ted]

Every generation has its visionaries and it's naysayers. I'm glad the naysayers didn't win 100+ years ago or none of us would be flying. I'm equally confident that the naysayers won't win this one either and screw it up for the next generation.

They naysayers also serve a good function of pushing improvements to make it more obviously worthwhile. My primary naysaying is the battery technology needs to really improve.

 

[AcroBoy]

I have driven one and it is very impressive. The fit and finish, and overall appearance clearly show a lot of attention to detail and a class machine. Charging can be a challenge- you need to install a special circuit which can completely charge a battery in around 4 hours, or a standard socket will take around 10 hours. Range is around 240mi at highway speeds.

Overall it is an awesome vehicle, and the acceleration is unbelievable. It is of course really quiet as expected, and the fit and finish are outstanding.

 

[SCCutler]

BUT... a performance car guy like you would have been impressed. Not a lot of 4 door, 5 person vehicles that can do 4.2 seconds bone stock under $100K.

They have already downloaded several operating system updates, which fixed bugs and gave more options. The service model if required is they bring a replacement car to your house and take yours away, so you are not inconvenienced. It is a different way to think about car maintenance.

We are in Taos now and the solar array was in part built for the tax credits. Between fed and NM state it's quite a bit of money. Does the payback compute, nope, not unless electricity gets a lot more expensive (but it's still interesting).

I love the Tesla S, and would love to buy one. Very impressive vehicle.

If they were delivering it for the price they originally promised (fifty grand or so) when it was announced, it would be a massive success. Even so, I think it will sell reasonably well (certainly is doing so here), but at 100k for a useful model (less-costly ones have essentially useless range), they are still a rich man's toy. More's the pity.

As for solar arrays built with tax credits... no comment, as it is not polite to curse in public. Suffice to say, if it cannot carry its own weight economically, it should not be propped-up with tax subsidies.

They naysayers also serve a good function of pushing improvements to make it more obviously worthwhile. My primary naysaying is the battery technology needs to really improve.

Yep. And, we need an honest portrayal of the true environmental impact of batteries and electric vehicles - full life-cycle, not just what happens after the car is built.

 

[Ted]

As for solar arrays built with tax credits... no comment, as it is not polite to curse in public. Suffice to say, if it cannot carry its own weight economically, it should not be propped-up with tax subsidies.

On the other hand, government subsidies in various forms have spurred a lot of technological development. Aviation owes a great deal to military investment in technology. In the case of something like solar power, more investment needs to be made to improve the technology and help it reach a critical mass, which it does not have at the moment. We all look for ways to save on our taxes (like donations to non-profits), and the tax credits basically are similar.

As you know, I am economically right-thinking like you, and am not in favor of government spending or subsidies. But, I see some of the breaks for technological investment as not too terrible.

Yep. And, we need an honest portrayal of the true environmental impact of batteries and electric vehicles - full life-cycle, not just what happens after the car is built.

That's the biggest part everyone misses and nobody wants to talk about. I'm looking forward to improved batteries.

 

[timwinters]

They naysayers also serve a good function of pushing improvements to make it more obviously worthwhile. My primary naysaying is the battery technology needs to really improve.

There's a big difference between fair analysis/constructive criticism and saying that it's bad technology that'll never work. Some never consider that we're not stuck on today's technology and that things will continue to evolve and improve.

To me a naysayer is someone who dismisses something saying "that dog won't ever hunt".

 

[dell30rb]

It will be a few years but (especially in california) they are going to figure out a way to tax these things. Budget crunch these days with a bunch of people driving around hybrids or scooters and barely paying any fuel tax

 

[Alexb2000]

Good discussion, continue on.

I have to go fly my leaded fuel burning, inefficient fuel guzzling, 1940's technology engined bird back to Dallas.

 

[Ted]

Good discussion, continue on.

I have to go fly my leaded fuel burning, inefficient fuel guzzling, 1940's technology engined bird back to Dallas.

Yeah, I find myself increasingly wishing I could do the various improvements I'd like to so I could get more efficiency out of the 310. Sigh...

 

[dell30rb]

They naysayers also serve a good function of pushing improvements to make it more obviously worthwhile. My primary naysaying is the battery technology needs to really improve.

I agree with that. It has gotten much better in the last 15 years but due to some physics/chemical stuff that is above my level and was explained to me by someone else - it sounds that a true 'breakthrough' is needed, not just refinement of current technology.

I read, maybe a year or two ago that a company was working on a battery powered 172 for training. The goal was 2 hour endurance out of a 45 minute charge. This seems realistic to me, and a good application for current technology.

 

[guardrail]

It will be a few years but (especially in california) they are going to figure out a way to tax these things. Budget crunch these days with a bunch of people driving around hybrids or scooters and barely paying any fuel tax

Here's the thing I don't get, California is FORCING manufacturers to sell a certain number of full electrics by 2025 or something. Do they plan to up front tax that? Do they plan a special registration tax? How do they plan to replace the revenue from the gas tax?

Not to spin this a different direction, but this is a typical California move. How can you force a manufacturer to sell a certain percentage of product? You think the dealers will start setting gas vs. electric sales hours?


On Topic:
I've looked into getting a Tesla as my next car. But the price just isn't there quite yet. I'd rather spend the money on a supercar or something similar than a Tesla. Also in this part of Florida there isn't a dealership for something like 300+ miles, so I can't even get it serviced without an overnight charge or a tow .

 

[No Joy]

Might be a pipe dream, but drive one and see if you still think so. I would have agreed with you prior to yesterday.

You let a drive cloud your judgment. A hot test ride, does not change the economics, physics and math.

It would take a massive area for the solar panel arrays, that would need to have reliable sunlight and be installed in a place that would unlikely to be damaged by weather or trees. Solar panel arrays can be quite expensive, fairly delicate, and have a limited lifetime. It would also probably be wise to have a grid system, and or a storage battery.

I would like to see you post the costs, details and specifications of your friends solar system.

The recommended electrical service requirements for the Tesla, is more than my house alone.

My house only has a 50a 240v service. A more typical house is 100a 240v. Some houses have as much as 200a 240v service. 70 amp, 240 volt service via solar, is going to be a large and costly system.

It's a nice hot car. Solar power can sometimes be nice. I just think they're both overhyped.

Every generation has its visionaries and it's naysayers. I'm glad the naysayers didn't win 100+ years ago or none of us would be flying. I'm equally confident that the naysayers won't win this one either and screw it up for the next generation.

Just because I'm criticizing the dishonest representations about current technology, doesn't mean that the technology won't be more practical in the future. Asking people to be honest, is not the same thing as being a naysayer of future developments.

And, we need an honest portrayal of the true environmental impact of batteries and electric vehicles - full life-cycle, not just what happens after the car is built.

Also an honest portrayal of solar systems is needed. Regretfully many seem to think that solar power has no negative environmental impact. There are harmful chemicals and other negative environmental impacts related to obtaining resources, manufacturing, and disposing of solar panels.

 

[Maxmosbey]

I don't own a Tesla, but I own Tesla. I have never driven one and I would love to own one. I bought shares in Tesla a while ago, against the advise of my financial advisor, and it has done well. I hope it continues, but I didn't invest in it to make money, I invested in it because I believe in the technology and I think Tesla has a good chance of making it viable. So win lose or draw, I'm staying with them. Maybe some day I'll make enough off my Tesla stock to buy one. I can only hope.

 

[No Joy]

I don't own a Tesla, but I own Tesla. I have never driven one and I would love to own one. I bought shares in Tesla a while ago, against the advise of my financial advisor, and it has done well. I hope it continues, but I didn't invest in it to make money, I invested in it because I believe in the technology and I think Tesla has a good chance of making it viable. So win lose or draw, I'm staying with them. Maybe some day I'll make enough off my Tesla stock to buy one. I can only hope.

Not that I'm saying Tesla is a Ponzi scheme. Just because you've made some profits, doesn't necessarily mean the product is legitimate or the profits will continue. I suspect Tesla will continue to grow and may become a major player. It's hard to say. Tesla seems to have a legitimate product, but much of the hype isn't. Many are already suspicious that Tesla might be a Ponzi scheme.

I suspect that shareholders made money with Edsel and Tucker. Many companies legitimate or not have gone from boom to bust.

 

[MAKG1]

Every generation has its visionaries and it's naysayers. I'm glad the naysayers didn't win 100+ years ago or none of us would be flying. I'm equally confident that the naysayers won't win this one either and screw it up for the next generation.

Every generation has its visionaries, naysayers, hypemongers, nutcases and quacks. The visionaries are a very small fraction of the total.

Everyone knew in 1904 that controlled powered flight was possible. The Wrights were not a surprise; in fact several other teams came up with similar successes at about the same time. They were, in fact, truly poor visionaries -- the Wright Airplane Company never did that well, and its premise was basically based on the patent troll. But they were very good engineers.

A better example, perhaps, would be the flying car. It's been, what, 60 years? The few ones that have been attempted have been ridiculously complex, outrageously expensive, and really bad airplanes and really bad cars at the same time.

The Tesla is a nice high performance machine that benefits greatly from the high standing torque an electric motor provides (internal combustion engines have zero standing torque -- they will quit when stopped), but the idea that you can pay for the premium price in not buying fuel and maintenance just means you haven't done the math or been realistic about it.

 

[Skylane81E]

Every generation has its visionaries, naysayers, hypemongers, nutcases and quacks. The visionaries are a very small fraction of the total.

Everyone knew in 1904 that controlled powered flight was possible. The Wrights were not a surprise; in fact several other teams came up with similar successes at about the same time. They were, in fact, truly poor visionaries -- the Wright Airplane Company never did that well, and its premise was basically based on the patent troll. But they were very good engineers.

A better example, perhaps, would be the flying car. It's been, what, 60 years? The few ones that have been attempted have been ridiculously complex, outrageously expensive, and really bad airplanes and really bad cars at the same time.

The Tesla is a nice high performance machine that benefits greatly from the high standing torque an electric motor provides (internal combustion engines have zero standing torque -- they will quit when stopped), but the idea that you can pay for the premium price in not buying fuel and maintenance just means you haven't done the math or been realistic about it.

The question becomes, how much do you need to spend to get a truly comparable car? Comparing a Tesla to a Civic is rather silly. For a four door with that kind of performance you are looking at a solid >$60k car.

Here is a "cheap" one starting at only $50,000

http://www.chrysler.com/en/2013/300-srt8/

 

[Maxmosbey]

Not that I'm saying Tesla is a Ponzi scheme. Just because you've made some profits, doesn't necessarily mean the product is legitimate or the profits will continue. I suspect Tesla will continue to grow and may become a major player. It's hard to say. Tesla seems to have a legitimate product, but much of the hype isn't. Many are already suspicious that Tesla might be a Ponzi scheme.

I suspect that shareholders made money with Edsel and Tucker. Many companies legitimate or not have gone from boom to bust.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? "

Oddball, Kelly's Heros

 

[MAKG1]

The question becomes, how much do you need to spend to get a truly comparable car? Comparing a Tesla to a Civic is rather silly. For a four door with that kind of performance you are looking at a solid >$60k car.

Here is a "cheap" one starting at only $50,000

http://www.chrysler.com/en/2013/300-srt8/

Really?

Depends on what you want from a car. A 1980 Civic is entirely reasonable to get you from point A to point B. So, it does 0 to 60 in 15 seconds instead of 4. Do you REALLY have an opportunity to use that 4 second time in city traffic?

I've never spent more than $3000 on a vehicle. Every one of them has been adequate for its job.

 

[Skylane81E]

Really?

Depends on what you want from a car. A 1980 Civic is entirely reasonable to get you from point A to point B. So, it does 0 to 60 in 15 seconds instead of 4. Do you REALLY have an opportunity to use that 4 second time in city traffic?

I've never spent more than $3000 on a vehicle. Every one of them has been adequate for its job.

If all you are after is A->B then don't buy it, many folks want more from their car and are willing to pay for it. Tesla isn't competing against the civic for customers, they are up against Merc, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, and the like.

A similarly performing CTS is $65k
A similar BMW just north of $90k

 

[Maxmosbey]

If all you are after is A->B then don't buy it, many folks want more from their car and are willing to pay for it. Tesla isn't competing against the civic for customers, they are up against Merc, BMW, Audi, Cadillac, and the like.

A similarly performing CTS is $65k
A similar BMW just north of $90k

Right, when I was younger I used to go car shopping and I would head straight to the "previously owned" lot. Now I head straight to the new car part of the lot and more precisely to the "loaded" line up as well. If it was always about money, they wouldn't make neat stuff.

 

[denverpilot]

Today, you don't go green because it's cheaper, or everyone would be doing it. You go green because it's what you want to do...kinda like flying.

Except that it isn't green. It just moves the tailpipe from the car to a smokestack a hundred miles away.

 

[Skylane81E]

Right, when I was younger I used to go car shopping and I would head straight to the "previously owned" lot. Now I head straight to the new car part of the lot and more precisely to the "loaded" line up as well. If it was always about money, they wouldn't make neat stuff.

Yep, this class of car is way beyond me (I didn't borrow that much to buy my house!) but it does have its place, and the pricing actually is not unatractive apples to apples


If all you want is performance you can get it cheaper, if all you want is the luxury you can get it cheaper, but if you want both the tesla is right in line.

Yes my Saturn will out corner one, accelate with the base S and out run any of the Tesslas but it won't do it with 5 people in quiet comfort, it will do it with 2 in noisy discomfort.

 

[Skylane81E]

FWIW, I just looked at the MB offerings, you are looking at 140k for a sedan that almost keeps up 0-60

 

[denverpilot]

Right, when I was younger I used to go car shopping and I would head straight to the "previously owned" lot. Now I head straight to the new car part of the lot and more precisely to the "loaded" line up as well. If it was always about money, they wouldn't make neat stuff.

I'm really torn by that "transition". I can't bring myself to sign the check for a new pickup truck. The thought of it instantly losing $20K drives me nuts.

On the flip side, buying some truck someone has not taken care of properly and fixing its problems, or that they'e already done heavy towing with for 100K miles, isn't very appealing either.

Most of the "neat stuff" dealers have added is available at the local car stereo dealer, when it comes to trucks. About the only thing that's not true of is the integrated trailer brake controllers that integrate with the vehicle traction control and accelerometers. You can get close in the aftermarket but not 100%.

New cars/trucks are only new for one trip home.

 

[Maxmosbey]

It is all relative. I'm not rich enough for a Tesla, or a BMW for that matter, but a loaded Ford Escape,,, I can handle that. In the mean time, I sure hope someone wants to buy Teslas,

 

[Skylane81E]

I'm really torn by that "transition". I can't bring myself to sign the check for a new pickup truck. The thought of it instantly losing $20K drives me nuts.

On the flip side, buying some truck someone has not taken care of properly and fixing its problems, or that they'e already done heavy towing with for 100K miles, isn't very appealing either.

Most of the "neat stuff" dealers have added is available at the local car stereo dealer, when it comes to trucks. About the only thing that's not true of is the integrated trailer brake controllers that integrate with the vehicle traction control and accelerometers. You can get close in the aftermarket but not 100%.

New cars/trucks are only new for one trip home.

Put me down for a car 2-5 years old...