Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

genna said:
Here is "fuel" cost comparison for Model 3 and Clarity(based on EPA). Where I live.

Model 3 gets 3.3 miles per Kwh. Clarity combined(never plug it in): 42 mpg.
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Weird comparison. “Never plug it in”? Clarity owners do plug in, most of them daily, replacing whatever battery they used that day*. There are folks in online forums concerned about the need for fuel stabilizer since they’ve had the same gas in the tank for 6 months or more. That’s not our use case - we buy gas somewhat regularly, but when we eventually do it’s usually 5 or 6 gallons to top off the 7-gal tank after driving for weeks sometimes.

I understand you’ve qualified your test, but it doesn’t reflect a real world scenario. I guess your point was to present a worst-case scenario? I get that but don’t really see the point.


*As a matter of fact, we just plugged in about an hour ago. We went for a nice drive today to a curvy mountain road suggested by a forum member. Did maybe 90 miles altogether. Started fully charged with 39 EV miles. Drove the first 29 and last 10 miles on battery. That means we did about 51 miles in hybrid mode, burning around 1.2 or 1.3 gals of gas for the whole outing. Just pointing out the flexibility a PHEV provides, though of course a TESLA could have easily done the whole trip with battery to spare.
 
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Speaking of planes, which is done occasionally, lets bring up the subject of EV airplanes and kick that around for a while.
 
FastEddieB said:
Weird comparison. “Never plug it in”? Clarity owners do plug in, most of them daily, replacing whatever battery they used that day*. There are folks in online forums concerned about the need for fuel stabilizer since they’ve had the same gas in the tank for 6 months or more. That’s not our use case - we buy gas somewhat regularly, but when we eventually do it’s usually 5 or 6 gallons to top off the 7-gal tank after driving for weeks sometimes.

I understand you’ve qualified your test, but it doesn’t reflect a real world scenario. I guess your point was to present a worst-case scenario? I get that but don’t really see the point.


*As a matter of fact, we just plugged in about an hour ago. We went for a nice drive today to a curvy mountain road suggested by a forum member. Did maybe 90 miles altogether. Started fully charged with 39 EV miles. Drove the first 29 and last 10 miles on battery. That means we did about 51 miles in hybrid mode, burning around 1.2 or 1.3 gals of gas for the whole outing. Just pointing out the flexibility a PHEV provides, though of course a TESLA could have easily done the whole trip with battery to spare.
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yes. I was presenting worst case scenario. If you do plug it in(as most do) Clarity gets even bigger advantage
 
genna said:
yes. I was presenting worst case scenario. If you do plug it in(as most do) Clarity gets even bigger advantage
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Got it. Just wanted to point out what an edge case you were presenting for the Clarity. But as you said, even if you never plugged it in and treated it as an Accord hybrid, it’s still gets great mileage, with the benefit of up to a $7,500 tax credit as a bonus!
 
@Velocity173

I had roughly the same cost to replace/repair rims on a MB.
That is what "luxury" cars cost. And the wait time from Germany....

Tim
 
genna said:
Second $5/Gallon?!?!?!. It's less than 1/2 of that in most of the country.
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Velocity173 said:
That Tesla to Civic comparison is obviously slanted. $5 a gallon?
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Easy to see who didn't read the whole article - He did several sets of numbers, including both crazy high and low gas and electricity prices. He also did it for $2.10/gallon.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Easy to see who didn't read the whole article - He did several sets of numbers, including both crazy high and low gas and electricity prices. He also did it for $2.10/gallon.
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I saw the rest later. And Civic won those. Still, Civic is not the most efficient non-BEV car. The comparison relies on a subsidy that is gone. Over 3000 in Mx for a civic in the first 5 years? I don’t think so. I’m also skeptical about those trade in values. Base 2017 model 3 with 75000m is valued at about 20K now(according to TrueCar) Like I said, compare it to a hybrid like clarity, accord or Prius and M3 is not the cheapest proposition. Better car? Probably. Cheaper to own, no
 
I paid $5 per gallon last night to fill my car....in Europe. Glad I have a diesel or else it would be $6. Would be interesting to do the cost analysis for an EV here. Electricity is about 3x vs back home last time I checked.
 
genna said:
Over 3000 in Mx for a civic in the first 5 years? I don’t think so.
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Agreed. I doubt we’ve had that much maintenance expense on our Element, based roughly on the Civic platform, over 14 years. Unless you include tires, I guess.

And wouldn’t “maintenance” be negligible within the warranty period - 3 years - anyway?
 
Velocity173 said:
Just pray you don’t have a fender bender or don’t need new rims. I wonder how long the excuse of growing pains of a new, start up company will be used???
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We dinged up a Model 3 rim 10 days ago. Got towed to the service center and the rim replaced and the (still good) tire transferred across to the new rim. Took about 20 minutes (apart from the tow), and $220 all said and done. No praying required.

upload_2019-12-7_3-54-22.png
 
deonb said:
We dinged up a Model 3 rim 10 days ago. Got towed to the service center and the rim replaced and the (still good) tire transferred across to the new rim. Took about 20 minutes (apart from the tow), and $220 all said and done. No praying required.

View attachment 80587
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A friend of mine has a model S. When I was visiting him he was going to let me drive it, but it so happened it had a flat. We aired it up and it seemed to beholding, but after about 10 minutes, it was low again. I pulled the wheel and ran water all over it till I found air bubbles on the back side at the seal where the tire and rim come together. We took it to a local tire shop, but they said the wheel needed to be replaced or welded and they gave us the name of a tire shop that cold weld it. We went there and they dismounted the tire, welded the wheel and remounted and balanced the tire. $50. That was just over a year ago and it is still holding up. He drives 130 miles rt ever day into Atlanta.

Yes, body work can be expensive. That's what insurance is for.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Easy to see who didn't read the whole article - He did several sets of numbers, including both crazy high and low gas and electricity prices. He also did it for $2.10/gallon.
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I did read it and his extremes and averages are all biased towards the Tesla. The $5 per gallon extreme is ridiculous. California is the highest average right now at $3.70. But if we’re going to use extremes then use the .33 per KWH in Hawaii vs that $5 per gal. He conviently left out the Tesla Supercharger average of .28 per KWH and the double the insurance costs of the Civic as well.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Yep and plenty that would wait weeks for service.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/terrible-customer-service-2
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That's a weird case to hang your hat on. Did you actually read it, or just looked at the title?

"I got a nail in my tire at some point in the last 2 weeks - who knows where it came from, so I think Tesla should replace the tire for free but they won't" is hardly an example of terrible customer service.

I personally think they should replace the tire for free EVEN if it was his fault, just because he bought many high-end Tesla's before, but doing so would be exemplary service. Not doing so doesn't make it terrible service.
 
deonb said:
That's a weird case to hang your hat on. Did you actually read it, or just looked at the title?

"I got a nail in my tire at some point in the last 2 weeks - who knows where it came from, so I think Tesla should replace the tire for free but they won't" is hardly an example of terrible customer service.

I personally think they should replace the tire for free EVEN if it was his fault, just because he bought many high-end Tesla's before, but doing so would be exemplary service. Not doing so doesn't make it terrible service.
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Not hanging my hat in anything. Just saying, present both sides of the issue. Tesla owners as a whole aren’t truthful with the negatives. There’s a reason why they’re called “fanboys.”
 
Velocity173 said:
Not hanging my hat in anything. Just saying, present both sides of the issue. Tesla owners as a whole aren’t truthful with the negatives. There’s a reason why they’re called “fanboys.”
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It's not that Tesla owners arent truthful with the negatives... They're clearly not perfect! It's just that the positives far outweigh the negatives, but people keep putting together the worst aspects they've heard about Tesla ("Misaligned body panels! Slow body repairs! Takes more than 5 minutes to charge!) and pretend that all of that wrapped up is the experience for everyone. In reality, Tesla makes a great product AND does an excellent job with customer service the vast majority of the time, and they rank highest in customer satisfaction (per Consumer Reports) and customer loyalty (per Experian). 90% customer satisfaction doesn't just come from "fanboys".

Tesla owners are more satisfied than any other auto brand's, according to Consumer Reports
10 Customer Experience Lessons From Tesla
EXPERIAN: TESLA HAS THE HIGHEST CUSTOMER LOYALTY OF ALL CAR BRANDS
 
Here's a good video, just posted, addressing range and range anxiety on a road trip in a Tesla Model 3, long-range.

 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's not that Tesla owners arent truthful with the negatives... They're clearly not perfect! It's just that the positives far outweigh the negatives, but people keep putting together the worst aspects they've heard about Tesla ("Misaligned body panels! Slow body repairs! Takes more than 5 minutes to charge!) and pretend that all of that wrapped up is the experience for everyone. In reality, Tesla makes a great product AND does an excellent job with customer service the vast majority of the time, and they rank highest in customer satisfaction (per Consumer Reports) and customer loyalty (per Experian). 90% customer satisfaction doesn't just come from "fanboys".

Tesla owners are more satisfied than any other auto brand's, according to Consumer Reports
10 Customer Experience Lessons From Tesla
EXPERIAN: TESLA HAS THE HIGHEST CUSTOMER LOYALTY OF ALL CAR BRANDS
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Customer service is only one part of customer satisfaction.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.teslamotors.com

https://www.carsdirect.com/automoti...bureau-slams-tesla-over-poor-customer-service

the Chevy Volt had the highest customer satisfaction out of any Chevy when they came out. Yet you’ll hear reports of average reliability and Chevy itself is towards the bottom of car manufacturers for customer service. People still love the car though.
 
Edit: I “think” some people have a higher satisfaction rate with EV because they feel they are doing something noble and good.
 
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deonb said:
We dinged up a Model 3 rim 10 days ago. Got towed to the service center and the rim replaced and the (still good) tire transferred across to the new rim. Took about 20 minutes (apart from the tow), and $220 all said and done. No praying required.

View attachment 80587
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I'd say that's a little more than dinged up! :D
 
1RTK1 said:
I “think” people have a higher satisfaction rate with EV because they feel they are doing something noble and good.
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Keep fishing. Eventually you will hit on something.

But actually, this might have some truth to it. I am a conservative (I hope I am allowed to say that), but I am also very ecological minded. It gripes me when I hear people say that all . . .

Never mind.
 
i think there are a whole lot more layers than "noble and good".
in fact I think that is a minor variable. Some folks, sure, think they are helping the environment....
but I want one and that aint even on my radar as a reason..
other things seem more primary... a few that come to mind
novelty
speed/performance
quiet
convenient
no gas stations
 
1RTK1 said:
I “think” people have a higher satisfaction rate with EV because they feel they are doing something noble and good.
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transportation makes up about 30 % of US greenhouse gases. Cars making up about 15 % total in the US. Globally it’s half of that. It would be a small dent in the global Co2 emissions even if we went all EV. One cow is equal to one car as far as greenhouse gases. Whatever reduction you get from EVs will be made up for in the cattle industry growth.
 
genna said:
Over 3000 in Mx for a civic in the first 5 years? I don’t think so.
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FastEddieB said:
Agreed. I doubt we’ve had that much maintenance expense on our Element, based roughly on the Civic platform, over 14 years. Unless you include tires, I guess.

And wouldn’t “maintenance” be negligible within the warranty period - 3 years - anyway?
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That wasn't a made up number. He listed the source for it. Maintenance is not covered by warranty, @FastEddieB.

5 years should be around 75,000 miles. That's about 10 oil changes (and tire rotations), 3 sets of brake pads, 2 air filters, a new set of tires, etc... I can easily see it getting to $3K if you actually do the recommended maintenance. If you just drive it until it breaks, yeah you could probably save some money in the short term in exchange for spending more later.

Edmunds.com actually puts the 5-year maintenance cost of the Civic at $3610: https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2020/cost-to-own/#style=401830283

I’m also skeptical about those trade in values. Base 2017 model 3 with 75000m is valued at about 20K now(according to TrueCar)
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I was just looking last night and I can't find a single Model 3 on the used market for under $35,000, so I'm not sure where they're getting their data. It's likely some sort of an extrapolation using ICE car depreciation curves, not based on reality.

Still, Civic is not the most efficient non-BEV car. The comparison relies on a subsidy that is gone. Like I said, compare it to a hybrid like clarity, accord or Prius and M3 is not the cheapest proposition. Better car? Probably. Cheaper to own, no
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I was hoping that someone besides me would notice that they linked to a Google spreadsheet used for the article in several places, and fix it up. Sigh... I guess I'll do it myself. :rolleyes:

So, I'm going to do the comparison against my current car (Volt) as much as I can. Let's see how this goes. I made the following adjustments:

1) Changed sales tax to 5.6%, my local rate in Washington County, WI.
2) Adjusted prices to current values
3) Adjusted EV tax credits. GM is only one quarter behind Tesla on the phaseout, so right now, both get only an $1875 credit. Tesla credits will be gone at the end of this year, GM's $1875 will last one additional quarter.
4) Adjusted resale value based on my own experience and comparison of current used Model S values with their original prices to gauge 5-year high mile depreciation on Teslas (since there are no 5 year old Model 3s yet). Neither one was as good as the spreadsheet originally showed.
5) Split the miles per year into gas miles per year and electric miles per year to account for the usage of both fuel sources on the plug-in hybrid Volt.
6) Updated maintenance costs per Edmunds.com.
7) Used the actual MPG (for Volt gas usage) and MPGe (for electrical usage for both) rather than the more-generic 4 miles/kWh used in the original comparison (though that number is valid for the M3 SR+.) Sourced from fueleconomy.gov.
8) Used $2.40/gal for gas, since that's roughly what it's been here for a while now.
9) Used $0.13/kWh for electricity, since that's what I pay.
10) Accounted for the roughly 10% losses due to charging efficiency on the EV miles.
11) Added a line for insurance quotes, and obtained them for myself and my wife from Liberty Mutual. Shocker: The insurance on the Volt was *double* the insurance on the Model 3!!! :eek:

5-year TCO results, using numbers corrected for all the concerns raised in this thread: $36,356 for the Model 3, $45,297 for the Volt. I'm actually quite surprised by that...

The big surprises: Even if you wipe out the maintenance and purchase/resale stuff that favors Tesla, you still come out ahead with the Model 3. Nearly $3K in fuel savings over 5 years even compared to a PHEV (though this is largely due to how I drive the PHEV - long commute), and $1500 savings in insurance costs. Crazy.

If you want to take a look: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...mUja1CIN-8hFTttNnfDKjTm4g/edit#gid=1853012159
 
1RTK1 said:
I “think” people have a higher satisfaction rate with EV because they feel they are doing something noble and good.
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Uhhh, I don't think so. Maybe the people that buy a Prius so they can be seen driving a Prius... But I like it because it's smooth, quiet, fun, and convenient. Nothing to do with "noble" or "good".
 
Velocity173 said:
Customer service is only one part of customer satisfaction.
https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.teslamotors.com

https://www.carsdirect.com/automoti...bureau-slams-tesla-over-poor-customer-service
Click to expand...

A review site is going to do nothing but attract people who are mad... And yes, Tesla had some growing pains with the Model 3, and an article from that time frame will reflect exactly that. Again, they've been quietly improving things and the number of customer service complaints has gone way down in 2019, which is a sign that they're still able to make the vast majority of their customers very, very happy.
 
JOhnH said:
Keep fishing. Eventually you will hit on something.

But actually, this might have some truth to it. I am a conservative (I hope I am allowed to say that), but I am also very ecological minded. It gripes me when I hear people say that all . . .

Never mind.
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I should have said “some” people. Many of the people I know do it for not only economics but to feel they are doing something “good”.
I’m a conservative (don’t mind saying it) and probably more ecological thinking than those that say they are with little impact by their deeds.
My dad farmers many different crops, (1200+ acres) we hunt, fish, etc. You don’t take care of your environment and you don’t do those thing.

Ain’t fishing by your statement. Guess you missed my previous statements about buying my wife a tesla because it would fit her needs, fortunately she wants a GT350:), no way will I own an extra car not being driven much, paying insurance and probably $700 dollars registration a year.
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
Uhhh, I don't think so. Maybe the people that buy a Prius so they can be seen driving a Prius... But I like it because it's smooth, quiet, fun, and convenient. Nothing to do with "noble" or "good".
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You don’t live in kalifornia do you. Though I don’t live in the densely populated city areas, I have many friends that do.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That wasn't a made up number. He listed the source for it. Maintenance is not covered by warranty, @FastEddieB.

5 years should be around 75,000 miles. That's about 10 oil changes (and tire rotations), 3 sets of brake pads, 2 air filters, a new set of tires, etc... I can easily see it getting to $3K if you actually do the recommended maintenance. If you just drive it until it breaks, yeah you could probably save some money in the short term in exchange for spending more later.

Edmunds.com actually puts the 5-year maintenance cost of the Civic at $3610: https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2020/cost-to-own/#style=401830283



I was just looking last night and I can't find a single Model 3 on the used market for under $35,000, so I'm not sure where they're getting their data. It's likely some sort of an extrapolation using ICE car depreciation curves, not based on reality.



I was hoping that someone besides me would notice that they linked to a Google spreadsheet used for the article in several places, and fix it up. Sigh... I guess I'll do it myself. :rolleyes:

So, I'm going to do the comparison against my current car (Volt) as much as I can. Let's see how this goes. I made the following adjustments:

1) Changed sales tax to 5.6%, my local rate in Washington County, WI.
2) Adjusted prices to current values
3) Adjusted EV tax credits. GM is only one quarter behind Tesla on the phaseout, so right now, both get only an $1875 credit. Tesla credits will be gone at the end of this year, GM's $1875 will last one additional quarter.
4) Adjusted resale value based on my own experience and comparison of current used Model S values with their original prices to gauge 5-year high mile depreciation on Teslas (since there are no 5 year old Model 3s yet). Neither one was as good as the spreadsheet originally showed.
5) Split the miles per year into gas miles per year and electric miles per year to account for the usage of both fuel sources on the plug-in hybrid Volt.
6) Updated maintenance costs per Edmunds.com.
7) Used the actual MPG (for Volt gas usage) and MPGe (for electrical usage for both) rather than the more-generic 4 miles/kWh used in the original comparison (though that number is valid for the M3 SR+.) Sourced from fueleconomy.gov.
8) Used $2.40/gal for gas, since that's roughly what it's been here for a while now.
9) Used $0.13/kWh for electricity, since that's what I pay.
10) Accounted for the roughly 10% losses due to charging efficiency on the EV miles.
11) Added a line for insurance quotes, and obtained them for myself and my wife from Liberty Mutual. Shocker: The insurance on the Volt was *double* the insurance on the Model 3!!! :eek:

5-year TCO results, using numbers corrected for all the concerns raised in this thread: $36,356 for the Model 3, $45,297 for the Volt. I'm actually quite surprised by that...

The big surprises: Even if you wipe out the maintenance and purchase/resale stuff that favors Tesla, you still come out ahead with the Model 3. Nearly $3K in fuel savings over 5 years even compared to a PHEV (though this is largely due to how I drive the PHEV - long commute), and $1500 savings in insurance costs. Crazy.

If you want to take a look: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...mUja1CIN-8hFTttNnfDKjTm4g/edit#gid=1853012159
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The insurance thing is surprising.

With 25Kmi/year, yes. I can see that happening. Although I would like to point out that you are likely spending a lot of time on highway. EVs are not very efficient(or rather they spend a lot of a limited energy) on the highway where ICE is most efficient. What's your commute distance? 40 miles? In WI, i'd want a longer range Tesla for sure. Winter does a nasty thing on that range.

Volt(which gen?) is kind of a bad example. It's a lot more expensive than current crop of hybrids from Honda and Toyota. With only a marginally higher EV range for your use. I think you may have been better of with a pure ICE car.

As far as MX. I imagine the prices given are for dealer. Including all those useless inspections. Honestly, any shop can perform all those required MX for 1/2 of that price. Something that you cannot do on Tesla and EV in general
 
One other thing. Model 3 is only 2 years old, so hard to say how much a 5yo one will cost. So I did a Model S trade in evaluation. Cheapest 2014 Model S with 125,000 miles(25x 5 years). KBB put's trade in at around $17K. That's a $71K car if i remember correctly.

I'm a little bit skeptical that a $40K base Model 3 will fetch $15K after the same use.
 
I think you’re gonna start to see some interesting stories once these Teslas start coming out of warranty. The 2012 Model S are just now expiring.


 
genna said:
The insurance thing is surprising.
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Sure is. The only thing I can think of is that Tesla is the safest car on the road and has many active accident-avoidance technologies standard, so even if the body work costs more (which I think was more true of the S than the 3, since many shops don't know how to work on aluminum) I guess the rate is lower. Also, the Teslas are very good at occupant protection and are damn near impossible to roll over with all the weight only inches off the ground, so that could have something to do with it as well. :dunno:

With 25Kmi/year, yes. I can see that happening. Although I would like to point out that you are likely spending a lot of time on highway. EVs are not very efficient(or rather they spend a lot of a limited energy) on the highway where ICE is most efficient. What's your commute distance? 40 miles? In WI, i'd want a longer range Tesla for sure. Winter does a nasty thing on that range.
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Yeah, my round trip commute each day is 75 miles. In better weather, the Volt will make it there with a little to spare. Now that it's cold, not so much - It's rated for 38 miles, but in mild weather it'll do over 40 even on the highway. In the winter, it's more like 25.

It'll be better once we have the car charging set up at our new office - Our CEO drives a Tesla and lives in an apartment with no charging. He normally just charges while working at our downtown office, but we opened up an office at the airport where both of us now spend the majority of our time. So, sometime in the next month or so I should be able to plug in at work, which will drastically improve the usefulness of the Volt and really cut the number of times I need to go to a gas station.

You're right that EVs do better in town than they do on the highway, and ICEVs do better on the highway than they do in town, but EVs are still more efficient on the highway than ICEVs.

My mission for a BEV is that it needs to be able to do 200 miles in the dead of winter. That pretty much means long range Tesla (whether it's S, 3, or X).

Volt(which gen?) is kind of a bad example. It's a lot more expensive than current crop of hybrids from Honda and Toyota. With only a marginally higher EV range for your use. I think you may have been better of with a pure ICE car.
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I bought mine used when the lease ended on my i3. It's a 2013 (gen 1). Looking at new ones, the Clarity I just configured came in more expensive than the Volt I configured earlier, so I'm not sure where your comment about the Volt being more expensive comes from. I do like the range on the Clarity, electric range is really the most important thing for a PHEV. The Volt's 38 miles was specifically chosen to be able to handle something like 80% of Americans' daily commute without burning any gas. Really, only the Clarity and i3 REx have it beat. Some of the offerings are truly pathetic - Mercedes has one with only 10 miles of electric range. Jeez, what's the point?

But... No way I'd be better off with an ICE.
 
Unlike Tesla, you can get a deal on Hondas, Clarity including. They are discounted at dealers. I was comparing no-options cars. After all, not many actually buy base Tesla. Kbb puts base clarity purchase price in upper 20s. I think I said lower 20s earlier by mistake. That was a hybrid Accord I was looking at earlier
 
Velocity173 said:
I think you’re gonna start to see some interesting stories once these Teslas start coming out of warranty. The 2012 Model S are just now expiring.


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Very interesting points of view, and worth considering.

But, the first video was a guy that lived on a remote Island off of Seattle. He probably has problems getting his bicycle worked on. And he did say it is a great car and he really loves it. And according to him, Tesla's are very easy to work on; IF you can find the manual and get parts. That is a problem that Tesla can solve, if they want to. And as more and more cars come of warranty, that is going to become very important to both Tesla and any future buyers.

The second guy probably had a better perspective on the problems. At least he conceded that Tesla has fixed most of those recurring problems and cars built since 2015 have much better service records. And I didn't even realize that Tesla had a comprehensive EIGHT YEAR warranty.
 
ouch is right!

otherwise.... now I get it too!
went for a test drive in a 3 today. only a short 20 minutes or so, but....
A few things about the interior build....console lids, etc.... seem a bit flimsy, but mostly it's just minimalist and nice. Love the big screen, autopilot was nifty, and wow was it fast!
I sure do wish the truck was something better....otherwise I'd love to see a cross between the S and the 3
 
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