Tesla Model 3 Announcement tonight

[ifly4fun]

S

So, if they are making all this economic awesome...WHY ARE WE SUBSIDIZING THEM?!?

Companies should thrive or die in the market on their own merits, not because they can bribe...er, donate to a congressman to have a subsidy put in a bill somewhere.

same reason you have a mortgage on your house. Sure, you could save for 30yrs, by why not get that house today.

 

[Dav8or]

People signed up for the thing before it's released because they get a government DISCOUNT on them if they get a low production number. They get all the other citizens to add to our national debt for their toy.

The government is offering me a chance to use some of MY OWN DAMN MONEY to buy a particular car. I'm not using your's, or your grandkids money. Worried about the national debt? Write your congress person.

 

[flhrci]

What do you need a pickup for ? Most of them I see on the road have one person in them and nothing in the bed but some fast food trash.

Moving stuff around occasionally. My first pickup truck eventually received a condom in the bed. Not from me! ewwwwww....

Btw, not sure if they still do or not, but GM has a hybrid pickup truck, so why not an electric one? Any my current pickup, although 13 years old, was has jsut as nice an interior and options as a comparable car.

 

[Dav8or]

And, by the way, I would like to have one of these cars; believe Tesla is making fine cars.

Just wait, these delivery positions will be selling for big premiums.

Actually they won't. They aren't transferable. Those on the list have only two options. Buy a car, or get their money back.

 

[Dav8or]

Tesla has received an estimated $4.9 Billion in government subsidies directly to build their infrastructure. The first 200,000 buyers of their vehicles get a $7,500 tax credit from the Fed, in addition to tax credits from certain states on top of this.

Tesla also makes money off of selling carbon credits. Many consider that a subsidy as well.

 

[azpilot]

For those of us who live in a northern climate, with a real winter, anybody know how Tesla deals with the windshield defrost and cabin heater issues? What does it do to range?

Probably about the same as running the AC in Phoenix in the summer all the time...

 

[oregonboy109]

As long as EVs are charged with electricity produced by coal, like they are here in OH and in many other places, there isn't really an environmental benefit for a lot of people. Add that to the rather limited range and the price and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[denverpilot]

The government is offering me a chance to use some of MY OWN DAMN MONEY to buy a particular car. I'm not using your's, or your grandkids money. Worried about the national debt? Write your congress person.

You can put your head in the sand and pretend what you're paying in is keeping up with the debt you're incurring if you like. It doesn't make it accurate. You're spending government loan money for personal gain at someone else's expense. You can argue that it's "Congress", but that only flies if you're voting against Congresscritters that support more spending. Otherwise you're just playing their game.

Spending other's money (including interest) is generally "fine" for natural monopolies and infrastructure, but not such a great idea for a society that just wants more toys.

Or more accurately, wants *some* people who meet the populist idea of what one should buy and own, to be subsidized, while anyone who needs a different product for legitimate reasons pays full price for that product.

Electric cars are rich kids toys. As is my diesel truck. A direct bottom line price-reduction personal tax subsidy is completely inappropriate. You get one, I don't. Same pool of fake money derived from debt.

There's no particular societal gain from what Tesla has done that's worth a personal tax break for using one. It doesn't make us energy independent (unless we quit blocking building of more nuclear plants, I'll stipulate that, but it's unlikely for now), it doesn't actually reduce emissions other than to move much of them overseas for the component manufacturing process, and is generally just populism wrapped in a fake "need".

Musk figured out how to create real demand for something he couldn't sell at a profit, and got politicians to pay for a portion of it. That's his "brilliance". Not so much hard engineering as social engineering skill. Rah rah, everyone needs a new electric car. Those of you who don't? Get out of "our" way, even when there was no "our" to start with.

Smart. People love a cause. Even a fake one. They'll happily rob someone else's legitimate earnings for the right one, even for an unprofitable one.

 

[JoseCuervo]

As long as EVs are charged with electricity produced by coal, like they are here in OH and in many other places, there isn't really an environmental benefit for a lot of people. Add that to the rather limited range and the price and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What is the fastest growing form of electrical generation?

Coal or Solar/Wind?

Gotta evolve, or become a dinosaur.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Smart. People love a cause. Even a fake one. They'll happily rob someone else's legitimate earnings for the right one, even for an unprofitable one.

And people also love driving outstanding cars. If it was so easy, why didn't MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexxus make a car that is as nice to drive as the Model S?

There is more engineering involved in Teslas than you give them credit for.

 

[oregonboy109]

What is the fastest growing form of electrical generation?

Coal or Solar/Wind?

Gotta evolve, or become a dinosaur.

Renewable energy accounted for less than 15% of energy produced in the US last year. EVs are not viable for a large percentage of Americans because of this. It may be growing but renewable energy isn't anywhere close to where it needs to be in many parts of the country. I would love there to be a large amount of solar/wind produced energy here in the midwest but there isn't and so the environmental benefit of EVs is gone.

 

[ggroves]

Smart. People love a cause. Even a fake one. They'll happily rob someone else's legitimate earnings for the right one, even for an unprofitable one.

Lots of fake causes in the world that my tax money pays for. Defense spending is a great example.

I'll choose the one that benefits me selfishly and directly, thank you. Cool technology in a cool, fast package? You bet. Subsidized by Federal debt? Don't care, but thanks for your portion of the contribution. Truly "green"? Don't care. Hell, I don't even recycle.

To me, taxes are a sunk cost. I'm not so idealistic and naive to believe I will ever pay less. (I'm chuckling at the notion of it as I type).

So Go Tesla. Daddy needs a new high tech toy someday.

 

[denverpilot]

And people also love driving outstanding cars. If it was so easy, why didn't MBZ, BMW, Audi, Lexxus make a car that is as nice to drive as the Model S?

There is more engineering involved in Teslas than you give them credit for.

They do. Their cars are plenty nice to drive.

What they were avoiding was the made up "fleet percentage" numbers. They have international businesses to maintain and no place else other than the U.S. is authorizing government money to buy individuals toys -- BUT -- the U.S. does mandate that a specific percentage of your "fleet" produced here must be EV.

Basically the deck is stacked for a "fleet" that's 100% EV vs a manufacturer that knows how to produce what ALL of their customers want.

Musk had a clear shot at being an "all EV" 100% fleet and the government put his competitors at a distinct business disadvantage. They couldn't just up and re-tool overnight and he knew it.

Politicians handed him the win. As he planned. I doubt he just got lucky in that regard, but if he did, it lowers that "genius" status everyone wants to bestow on him, so take your pick. It doesn't matter either way.

Socially engineered to win. California led the way, not surprisingly. Where is the company headquartered again? Yeah... His politicians hid it very well in the sob story, "A level playing field for a small manufacturer."

Very well played. Incredibly well. I mean, who'd actually WANT the Big Three to actually ramp up and totally crush him by challenging them with a more efficient offer like, "The first 100 million EVs to market get all of the cash?" That would have killed him before he even started. Nope, make it a "fleet percentage" and it looks "fair" at first glance.

It certainly wasn't about getting EVs on the road the fastest possible way. It was engineered to give an all-EV manufacturer an advantage, in a tech State. Go figure. (Duh...)

There's engineering in the Tesla. It's not NEW or particularly worthy of financing it on the backs of a society that just wants toys. It's a battery. No new chemistry. Nothing but better packaging of it.

Consumerism and populism run amok. It's not good governance. It's chrony favoritism backed by "someone else's money". The same complaint his political contemporaries have against petroleum.

If Musk had to earn his way to profitability and scale without kickbacks to his customers, he'd still be building a niche car for millionaires. That's just cold hard numbers and facts.

It's just which politicians got paid is all. Chrony oil company or chrony green company. Same engineering problems at their core -- efficient use of energy, not lowering energy use. Thermodynamics doesn't allow that.

Same graft and total corruption. Different cocktail parties. Ethics and morals were never even a thought, we're well beyond that as a society.

There are no moral rules. If your side won, you get to re-write the history book. See: IRS scandal.

Case in point on history re-writes is: Ford.

Nobody hears how the government of the day tried to utterly destroy him for not being born into the "right" family.

The "official" history now is that he was an amazing entrepreneur with nearly zero flaws. Not the guy Congress didn't trust to run a business as large as his became because he didn't attend the right business schools. Hob-nob with the right crowd.

Musk hob-nobs. Very well. Nothing changes. The oligarchs love Musk and his electric scooters. It plays nicely when folks actually ask them what they're doing about overpopulation and pollution.

"Look, no emissions! [whisper aside: "At the tailpipe... Hey Bob, your district will get the approvals for the new Nuc plant in ten years if you go along with this mandate for EVs thing... Play along so you can look strong on jobs..."]

These folks know exactly what they're doing...

Keep the upper middle class thinking a mortgage on a car that costs more than their parents paid for a house, is a "great deal" -- and slap some computer displays and a battery in it, make it drive like a Euro sports car, and lock the Euro car manufacturer out of participating with the "fleet" percentages (so they can't use their real world profits on non-EV toys to cover their retooling expenses), and the upper middle class will lap it up. See: Deposits on something that hasn't even been built yet.

 

[Dav8or]

Renewable energy accounted for less than 15% of energy produced in the US last year. EVs are not viable for a large percentage of Americans because of this. It may be growing but renewable energy isn't anywhere close to where it needs to be in many parts of the country. I would love there to be a large amount of solar/wind produced energy here in the midwest but there isn't and so the environmental benefit of EVs is gone.

Are you implying the only reason to buy an EV is environmental? That's actually on the bottom of my list.

 

[FastEddieB]

This week's "This Week In Tech" has as the lead topic a quite comprehensive discussion on the new Tesla.

https://twit.tv/shows/this-week-in-tech/episodes/556?autostart=false

 

[Dav8or]

You can put your head in the sand and pretend what you're paying in is keeping up with the debt you're incurring if you like. It doesn't make it accurate. You're spending government loan money for personal gain at someone else's expense. You can argue that it's "Congress", but that only flies if you're voting against Congresscritters that support more spending. Otherwise you're just playing their game.

Spending other's money (including interest) is generally "fine" for natural monopolies and infrastructure, but not such a great idea for a society that just wants more toys.

Or more accurately, wants *some* people who meet the populist idea of what one should buy and own, to be subsidized, while anyone who needs a different product for legitimate reasons pays full price for that product.

Electric cars are rich kids toys. As is my diesel truck. A direct bottom line price-reduction personal tax subsidy is completely inappropriate. You get one, I don't. Same pool of fake money derived from debt.

There's no particular societal gain from what Tesla has done that's worth a personal tax break for using one. It doesn't make us energy independent (unless we quit blocking building of more nuclear plants, I'll stipulate that, but it's unlikely for now), it doesn't actually reduce emissions other than to move much of them overseas for the component manufacturing process, and is generally just populism wrapped in a fake "need".

Musk figured out how to create real demand for something he couldn't sell at a profit, and got politicians to pay for a portion of it. That's his "brilliance". Not so much hard engineering as social engineering skill. Rah rah, everyone needs a new electric car. Those of you who don't? Get out of "our" way, even when there was no "our" to start with.

Smart. People love a cause. Even a fake one. They'll happily rob someone else's legitimate earnings for the right one, even for an unprofitable one.

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda. Can you post a response that isn't about 15 paragraphs long? I am taxed enough already. ANY opportunity I can use to buy something I actually want using income tax deductions, I'm going to take. I actually want a Model 3 because it is a better car. Are you telling me that you don't claim any personal, or business deductions on your tax return?? I seriously doubt it. I bet you claim every damn one you can.

 

[oregonboy109]

Are you implying the only reason to buy an EV is environmental? That's actually on the bottom of my list.

I'm saying that the lack on an environmental reason (it may not be a factor for you but it is for a lot of other EV buyers) coupled with the price increase vs a comparable traditional car, coupled with the range (which can be limiting in certain cases) makes EVs a tough sell for many people right now.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Renewable energy accounted for less than 15% of energy produced in the US last year. EVs are not viable for a large percentage of Americans because of this. It may be growing but renewable energy isn't anywhere close to where it needs to be in many parts of the country. I would love there to be a large amount of solar/wind produced energy here in the midwest but there isn't and so the environmental benefit of EVs is gone.

Again, what is the faster growing form of electricity production in the US?

Coal or solar/wind?

 

[Dav8or]

I'm saying that the lack on an environmental reason (it may not be a factor for you but it is for a lot of other EV buyers) coupled with the price increase vs a comparable traditional car, coupled with the range (which can be limiting in certain cases) makes EVs a tough sell for many people right now.

That's why the Model 3, the Chevy Bolt and potentially the Nissan Leaf Gen 2 are so important. They are closing the gap on traditional cars and the range is increasing. They are making the EV an easier sell to main street America. This is why we should be excited about the new models. Progress is being made.

 

[oregonboy109]

Again, what is the faster growing form of electricity production in the US?

Coal or solar/wind?

Solar and wind. And that still doesn't change anything written above. It's getting there but it still isn't in a position to rival traditional (nonrenewable) sources. Believe me I wish it was. Part of this issue, at least here in Central OH, is that even if a home or business wanted to put in a solar panel or wind turbine and go "off the grid", they would still have to pay the power company for electricity they are no longer using. Until practices like that end, no matter how fast solar and wind energy grow, the adoption of clean energy will be slow.

 

[oregonboy109]

That's why the Model 3, the Chevy Bolt and potentially the Nissan Leaf Gen 2 are so important. They are closing the gap on traditional cars and the range is increasing. They are making the EV an easier sell to main street America. This is why we should be excited about the new models. Progress is being made.

And that's great but, again, for many people, the decision to buy an electric car is because of the perceived environmental benefits. And my point is that the innovation on the car side needs to be matched by a shift to clean and renewable ways to produce the electricity powering that car.

 

[JoseCuervo]

And that's great but, again, for many people, the decision to buy an electric car is because of the perceived environmental benefits. And my point is that the innovation on the car side needs to be matched by a shift to clean and renewable ways to produce the electricity powering that car.

Why do they have to be matched?

 

[JoseCuervo]

And, in case you are wondering how easy it is to find a Super Charger.....


Currently.....

And by the end of the year, long before the first Model 3 ever rolls out...

 

[denverpilot]

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda. Can you post a response that isn't about 15 paragraphs long? I am taxed enough already. ANY opportunity I can use to buy something I actually want using income tax deductions, I'm going to take. I actually want a Model 3 because it is a better car. Are you telling me that you don't claim any personal, or business deductions on your tax return?? I seriously doubt it. I bet you claim every damn one you can.

Just because it's long and you don't like reading on, oh... A discussion forum... Where you engaged ME, sir... Doesn't validate your point nor make it any more than a populist idea to give tax breaks for adult toys. I noticed you haven't refuted that point other than to claim because government takes money from you, upon threat of fiscal penalty or incarceration, that you're entitled to take it back if they deem you "worthy".

My deductions? I claimed a whopping $100 or so on my "second house" interest (it's an RV and that's a dumb tax break too), and a larger amount by far on charitable contributions, of which I typically don't bother mentioning or making public, since they're what everyone should be doing anyway who's been blessed with a good living and a good life. Other than that, none this year. Being debt free and earning a good living in the US today means paying significantly more than one's "fair share", especially in a year when input to retirement tax shelters was light, since my employer doesn't offer one and I had some other things that needed doing over maxing out an IRA this year. In past years that particular benefit has been heavily used, but that has a direct benefit to society in that you won't be paying for me in my old age.

I suspect your discount on your toy paid for by the taxpayer, will outstrip even my charity, by many thousands of dollars, and will only benefit you. And was optional. How about this? I'll forego the $100 on my optional purchase and hand it to you so you can have that to buy your toy, and you vote to forego all of the kickbacks to Tesla and return the money to the People for the common good? I'd be plenty fine with that.

Or did you think I'd actually be telling you that you're a rip-off artist in populist clothes while doing it myself? Not happening. You see, in order to speak about the moral high ground, it helps to actually hold it. Shooting downhill is easier than shooting up from the hole you're digging yourself down there.

Isn't it yummy irony that Musk is essentially Edison today, "Buy mine, it's better, safer, and I kiss the butts of the very best politicians! They're even going to tax you to hang my wires!"... and he named his car after Tesla?

Think about that one for a bit. Impressive marketing. Musk's skillset is way closer to Edison's than Tesla's. And he couldn't hold a candle to Tesla in raw engineering talent.

Edison did put in lots of hours, though. I'll give him that. Many of them lobbying to crush Tesla with his cronies.

Even more irony: Musk builds energy storage devices based on DC power for both cars and houses. And then in the house has to covert them back to the Edison standard.

He should have named his company Edison. He's using Edison's playbook.

 

[denverpilot]

And, in case you are wondering how easy it is to find a Super Charger.....


Currently.....

And by the end of the year, long before the first Model 3 ever rolls out...

Gee, look. Basic coverage of the interstate highway system but avoiding the poor people in the south and southwest, until we make the cheaper and more subsidized version...

And extra density where spoiled rich people with electric toys who'd vote for government to buy them for them, would live.

One might say that's observation bias, but notice in the first maps which States were completely ignored. Anyone in those States not paying their fair share of the taxes handed to Musk? I'm going to guess that they are paying like they always have, and yet... Musk's company didn't bother providing a single charging station there. Hmmm.

No problem. They're just "flyover States" with no money anyway. They don't have enough votes to stop him. He'll get them a nice "token" charger over near the interstate when he gets around to it.

The northern I-90 coverage in the second screenshot is a crack-up. Fleets of Teslas cruising I-90 in a North Dakota blizzard, hanging out at the charger for a couple of hours every couple hundred miles. There's a road trip everyone wants... Hahaha. Living the EV dream!

And come on. None in Aspen or Vail? You know the billionaires will need somewhere to have the staff go charge up the car to be seen in. Oh, wait. They'll just install them in their ten car garages. I forgot.

The funny thing is, you're actually excited about that map. Don't get out to the country or mountains much, do you?

I'm headed up to Walden, CO in a couple of weeks pulling the 12,500 lb trailer. I know, it's not the approved vehicle type for the coastal politicians, so I'll just have to pay fuel taxes and my fair share of the road maintenance, and then pay for some Musky folks' electric sports car toys to redeem myself for not being like them.

Wouldn't want to bother any of you PC coastal voter types by not affording you your sports car of your dreams. That wouldn't be nice. We folk in the unpopulated places are here to serve at your pleasure, of course, since you hold a majority.

If y'all will toss in a nice government discount on a gas powered Subaru in a few years when mine gets really old, I mean, it's only 16 years old right now, so it has lots of miles left on it, I'll be much obliged. I'm sure I can make up some cool marketing spin to make it PC for y'all. Maybe something like, "Subaru, official car of lesbians everywhere!"

And before you get all offended, I'm a lesbian. I promise. I get to be whatever I want to claim I am, y'all taught me that.

I *deserve* a government discounted Subaru. Take that money right directly off the bottom line of my 1040, if you would please. I deserve it just as much as you *deserve* an Edison, cough... Tesla. I promise. Trust me.

Here's a hint: My politicians like Subarus too. Send them a couple and they'll help you vote in my new Subaru subsidy. Promise they can have a factory here and they'll probably throw you billions. Oh wait. They don't have the votes. Can you handle that from your overcrowded State, please? You guys can do that way easier than we can from here. But we deserve it! So make it happen. Thanks!

 

[ggroves]

Central OH, is that even if a home or business wanted to put in a solar panel or wind turbine and go "off the grid"

You can go off the grid 100%. But you must fully pull the plug.

If you need supplemental electricity on dark, windless days, or you want to sell power to the power company, you still need "the grid", and everyone pays for the infrastructure.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The government is offering me a chance to use some of MY OWN DAMN MONEY to buy a particular car. I'm not using your's, or your grandkids money. Worried about the national debt? Write your congress person.

Lol, let me know when you are able to track your money through the government to make sure that only your dollars are given back to you in the subsidy for the toy. The fact is, you can't. The only thing you can prove is how much you've given the government, not how much they used on your behalf/didn't spend on you and are now giving back to you. Subsidies for consumer products shouldn't be allowed. If Tesla or others can't make their product viable without the credits, then they should be allowed to fail or find private investors willing to eat their loss until such time as they can be profitable or close the doors. I'm not discounting the idea that the GDP can swing back to the US with Tesla's products, but it can do so without unnecessary government intervention.

 

[Dav8or]

Lol, let me know when you are able to track your money through the government to make sure that only your dollars are given back to you in the subsidy for the toy. The fact is, you can't. The only thing you can prove is how much you've given the government, not how much they used on your behalf/didn't spend on you and are now giving back to you. Subsidies for consumer products shouldn't be allowed. If Tesla or others can't make their product viable without the credits, then they should be allowed to fail or find private investors willing to eat their loss until such time as they can be profitable or close the doors. I'm not discounting the idea that the GDP can swing back to the US with Tesla's products, but it can do so without unnecessary government intervention.

It's easy to track. It never leaves my bank account. The Feds give me a tax credit, it knocks down the amount I owe and I send in a smaller check. Easy tracking. The money is right where I left it. Don't like subsidies? Write your congress person. As long as they are legal and available, I will use them when I can. I won't be getting this particular credit anyhow because it is finite. After the first 200,000 Teslas are sold, there are no more and by the time I get to actually buy my "toy", they will be long gone.

 

[denverpilot]

It's easy to track. It never leaves my bank account. The Feds give me a tax credit, it knocks down the amount I owe and I send in a smaller check. Easy tracking. The money is right where I left it. Don't like subsidies? Write your congress person. As long as they are legal and available, I will use them when I can. I won't be getting this particular credit anyhow because it is finite. After the first 200,000 Teslas are sold, there are no more and by the time I get to actually buy my "toy", they will be long gone.

So you really get to pay for a portion of the neighbor's toy before you can afford yours. Brilliant.

 

[JoseCuervo]

You can go off the grid 100%. But you must fully pull the plug.

If you need supplemental electricity on dark, windless days, or you want to sell power to the power company, you still need "the grid", and everyone pays for the infrastructure.

What does that mean??

If you still get power, you still have to have an account from the local power company? Seems reasonable...

 

[Dav8or]

So you really get to pay for a portion of the neighbor's toy before you can afford yours. Brilliant.

Sure, if you want to look at it that way. I pay for all kinds of things I don't get to use, like K-12 education. I have no kids, so other people's kids are getting an education partly on my dime. Just an example. I could add to the list, but you get the point.

I'm happy to help pay for my neighbor's "toy" because I believe this technology is the future, it's important and America needs to be at the forefront of it. I also believe it will bring some jobs back to America. Waiting for the "free market", if that even really exists, to innovate and move us forward is about the slowest way to get anything done. The market only innovates when it has to, otherwise it's A-OK with status quo.

Of course you disagree with all of this, so feel free to shake your fist at all the government leeches as they start to clog up the highways with their expensive toys if it makes you feel better.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Gee, look. Basic coverage of the interstate highway system but avoiding the poor people in the south and southwest, until we make the cheaper and more subsidized version...

Tesla had a very structured roll-out. Only sold them in states they could service (as they wouldn't play the dealership game, many states had laws requiring dealers. It has been a state by state game of checkers/chess to roll out.

It is only reasonable that the first SuperChargers were where the first cars were sold, and, where population densities are higher. Yes, people in North Dakota will not be served first. I am guessing that is one of the reasons they live in North Dakota.

And extra density where spoiled rich people with electric toys who'd vote for government to buy them for them, would live.

One might say that's observation bias, but notice in the first maps which States were completely ignored. Anyone in those States not paying their fair share of the taxes handed to Musk? I'm going to guess that they are paying like they always have, and yet... Musk's company didn't bother providing a single charging station there. Hmmm.

No problem. They're just "flyover States" with no money anyway. They don't have enough votes to stop him. He'll get them a nice "token" charger over near the interstate when he gets around to it.

The northern I-90 coverage in the second screenshot is a crack-up. Fleets of Teslas cruising I-90 in a North Dakota blizzard, hanging out at the charger for a couple of hours every couple hundred miles. There's a road trip everyone wants... Hahaha. Living the EV dream!

Not sure why you think Tesla has a obligation to build superchargers in every state. I am guessing they have resources devoted to building them to support their market expansion plans. Seems reasonable to me.

"Fleets of Teslas cruising I-90 in a North Dakota blizzard" is a bizarre corner case. But, if there ever gets to be "Fleets of Teslas cruising I-90" I would guess Tesla would be motivated to provide the super chargers..... Oh wait, they are putting them in North Dakota...... Looks like you won't have that concern.

And come on. None in Aspen or Vail? You know the billionaires will need somewhere to have the staff go charge up the car to be seen in. Oh, wait. They'll just install them in their ten car garages. I forgot.

Why would they need Superchargers in Vail or Aspen? They can use destination chargers there. The billionaires can get them wired into the Aspen house garage,, plug in when they get there. Or the lodges/and hotels in Vail and Aspen will have charging stations. Don't confuse Superchargers with the other types of available charging systems.

The funny thing is, you're actually excited about that map. Don't get out to the country or mountains much, do you?

Not sure where I am excited about the maps. I merely posted the current map and the map that is expected in 8 months. A couple of years before the first Model 3 is on the road, the map will look much different than today's, and, we can already see what it will look like in 8 more months. I would guess it is even more dense in 32 months.

And yes, I do get out in the country and mountains much. Like nearly every day. Last Friday I got in my plane flew 20 miles and then dropped down to less than 500 AGL for the next 260 miles of flying mountains, canyons, and the desert, most of it less than 50 agl, and quite a bit of it at -50 AGL. 3 hours of yankin' and bankin' and never flew with in miles, let alone, feet of another soul.

I actually do have a 3-4 time per year road trip that has 236 miles of desolate road that Tesla does not have a super charger planned for. That would be a bit of stopper for the Model 3 at intro. But, the fact I have another dozen cars and pickups at my disposal, plus a plane really does not seem like a road block to owning a Tesla.

I'm headed up to Walden, CO in a couple of weeks pulling the 12,500 lb trailer. I know, it's not the approved vehicle type for the coastal politicians, so I'll just have to pay fuel taxes and my fair share of the road maintenance, and then pay for some Musky folks' electric sports car toys to redeem myself for not being like them.

Not sure what that is all about, glad you are getting out.

Wouldn't want to bother any of you PC coastal voter types by not affording you your sports car of your dreams. That wouldn't be nice. We folk in the unpopulated places are here to serve at your pleasure, of course, since you hold a majority.

The state I live in has far less population than the state you live in. Pretty sure me living in an unpopulated place doesn't have anything to do with my voting, other than making sure I have plenty of access to mountains, rivers, fishing, hunting.

If y'all will toss in a nice government discount on a gas powered Subaru in a few years when mine gets really old, I mean, it's only 16 years old right now, so it has lots of miles left on it, I'll be much obliged. I'm sure I can make up some cool marketing spin to make it PC for y'all. Maybe something like, "Subaru, official car of lesbians everywhere!"

And before you get all offended, I'm a lesbian. I promise. I get to be whatever I want to claim I am, y'all taught me that.

I *deserve* a government discounted Subaru. Take that money right directly off the bottom line of my 1040, if you would please. I deserve it just as much as you *deserve* an Edison, cough... Tesla. I promise. Trust me.

Glad you like Subaru's.
You should drive a Tesla sometime.

Here's a hint: My politicians like Subarus too. Send them a couple and they'll help you vote in my new Subaru subsidy. Promise they can have a factory here and they'll probably throw you billions. Oh wait. They don't have the votes. Can you handle that from your overcrowded State, please? You guys can do that way easier than we can from here. But we deserve it! So make it happen. Thanks!

Yep, my state is overcrowded. And still one of the lowest density states in the country. I would struggle to live in a place like Colorado with even more people.

 

[N747JB]

That's why the Model 3, the Chevy Bolt and potentially the Nissan Leaf Gen 2 are so important. They are closing the gap on traditional cars and the range is increasing. They are making the EV an easier sell to main street America. This is why we should be excited about the new models. Progress is being made.

I am curious how they can make a profit selling the model 3 for $35K. Ford makes an electric Focus that is basically sold in California and the New England states that require a % of the fleet to be total electric. A Ford rep told me that they lose $11K per Electric Focus sold and the Nissan Leaf was similar. Assuming that he is right, and neither of these cars are anything like the Model 3 appears to be, how are they building them so cheap? I am not knocking the Tesla, it just seems like they have figured out something that two of the worlds largest manufacturers can't. And 300,000 is a lot of orders, I am not sure of delivery times, but I would think it would take several years to produce that many cars. Ford Motor company produces about 200,000 vehicles per month worldwide!

 

[FastEddieB]

I am curious how they can make a profit selling the model 3 for $35K.

The aforementioned podcast opined the average out-the-door Model 3 would go for around $43k, IIRC.

 

[N747JB]

The aforementioned podcast opined the average out-the-door Model 3 would go for around $43k, IIRC.

That makes more sense.

 

[LDJones]

Again, what is the faster growing form of electricity production in the US?

Coal or solar/wind?

That's a weak argument....sort of like saying, what's the fastest growing segment of of the personal computer market, desktops/laptops or tablets? The desktops/laptops have been the mainstays forever so the growth is in the newcomers. But you won't see desktops/laptops leaving corporate desks in favor of tablets anytime soon.

The problem I see with solar and wind is the more we have of them, the more obvious their shortcomings and enthusiasm for them has been petering out until some major technological breakthroughs happen. The main thing still driving them are state mandates that continue to drive up energy costs for everyone, hurting the poor disproportionately in favor of feel-good legislative mandates.

 

[peppy]

EV cost is driven by battery cost. With the Gigafactory Tesla will have the lowest battery cost in the business. A VP at LG commented that Musk's 30% cost reduction number for the Gigafactory is a lowball number.

 

[peppy]

That's a weak argument....sort of like saying, what's the fastest growing segment of of the personal computer market, desktops/laptops or tablets? The desktops/laptops have been the mainstays forever so the growth is in the newcomers. But you won't see desktops/laptops leaving corporate desks in favor of tablets anytime soon.

The problem I see with solar and wind is the more we have of them, the more obvious their shortcomings and enthusiasm for them has been petering out until some major technological breakthroughs happen. The main thing still driving them are state mandates that continue to drive up energy costs for everyone, hurting the poor disproportionately in favor of feel-good legislative mandates.

Wind is competitive with pretty much all other energy generation. Storage is an issue which is why Tesla's energy storage business may one day way outstrip their car business.

For you PC analogy to be accurate you would have to have zero sales of desktops and laptops. Almost no new coal plants are being built and they are being phased out fairly rapidly. Environmentally this isn't quite as good as it sounds since natural gas is on the rise. Natural gas cuts CO2 in half but the methane released in its production and transport is very harmful since methane is about 100X as bad as a global warming gas.

The cost of solar continues to drop rapidly. If your idea of costs are form 10 years ago you need to take another look.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Just because you like populist rhetoric, doesn't make it any more accurate than it was when it was some other silly notion before the electric car craze.

It'll be decades before anything other than nuclear can handle the base loads we have TODAY on our power grids in overcrowded cities back east, if ever. And the idiots are breeding. That means what? Oh yeah... Bigger loads. More energy use.

Let me know when you can back your rhetoric in hard engineering numbers, Jimbo.

As it stands today, the world can't even make solar panels without massive amounts of nuclear or coal power, and has to do it by "exporting" the pollution of making them to the Asian Pacific. If you want to see some massively subsidized mega-capitalists making all sorts of environmental disasters for the future, look no further than the solar barons.

Same mentality as the oil barons, they just wrapped themselves in green tissue paper to suck in folks like yourself with no ability to add up KWh used vs where they come from.

Musk is closer to a Rockefeller than to you, but he's got you fooled. He'll just make house sized batteries in China where it only puts their population and workers at direct health risk, and is hidden by their authoritarian government.

Makes it all so easy for the westerners to believe in his greenness.

Typing on a plastic keyboard, Jimster? See anything in the room you're sitting in that didn't require petrochemicals to make, deliver, or finish? Going to rid your home of everything wrapped in plastic? Nice fruits and veggies in the kitchen? Any of them not delivered by diesel? How's the temp in the house? Nice and toasty on this early Spring night? A little natural gas or some nice coal providing that for ya? Does your Porche run on unicorn farts?

LOL. Electric isn't utopia, and it isn't possible to convert a majority of energy use to it. Not without more plants online for base load. Those are going to be nuclear or coal, take your pick. Solar isn't going to cut it, and neither is wind, they only augment. There's no storage facilities in the grid, so you're going to need something engineered to operate 24/7. The base load plants do have to be shut down for maintenance once in a while, too, you know... And utilities are pushing the bounds of being able to do that in many areas without shedding loads.

Accidents happen when you never shut down and maintain and upgrade the plant... in fact, IMHO they're not accidents at all.

Oh wait. The Porche is made of bamboo, isn't it? I forgot. No metal gears, no plastic dash, no lubricants... Haha. You just pedal it around and it's made of all renewables. I forgot.

Got some more energy fairy tales for us Jim? I enjoy good fantasy writing.

We want the engineering numbers from YOU! Musk is constantly moving forward while you just paid your yearly dues in the flat earth society. While you come up with off the wall arguements about the government giving musk money, how about the idiots in congress not allowing a gas tax increase right now while Intrest rates and gas is cheap to rebuild our rotten roads and bridges, but yet ok well over 3 billion a year for Isreal and have for years

 

[denverpilot]

It is only reasonable that the first SuperChargers were where the first cars were sold, and, where population densities are higher. Yes, people in North Dakota will not be served first. I am guessing that is one of the reasons they live in North Dakota.

So you're admitting that by subsidizing Tesla on a national scale and ramping that down after the first 200,000 units, it's just elitism taken to the extreme, to allow North Dakotans to pay for Californian's rich kid toys?

Sounds like populism run amok and Lord of the Flies kinda stuff, right there. That is, of course, if you're still asserting that these sports cars represent a technology so good for the entire nation that everyone should have one.

Which is it? Elitism and toy purchases on other's backs, or investment in something everyone should be benefitting from equally?

Don't worry, you don't have to pick your answer carefully. California can out-vote North Dakota and make them their ***** and the story doesn't actually have to make any logical sense.

Well, until North Dakota decides to target one of their nukes at the west coast, anyway. LOL. Hurd largest nuclear weapons superpower, North Dakota. I wouldn't want to **** them off.

I am curious how they can make a profit selling the model 3 for $35K. Ford makes an electric Focus that is basically sold in California and the New England states that require a % of the fleet to be total electric. A Ford rep told me that they lose $11K per Electric Focus sold and the Nissan Leaf was similar. Assuming that he is right, and neither of these cars are anything like the Model 3 appears to be, how are they building them so cheap? I am not knocking the Tesla, it just seems like they have figured out something that two of the worlds largest manufacturers can't. And 300,000 is a lot of orders, I am not sure of delivery times, but I would think it would take several years to produce that many cars. Ford Motor company produces about 200,000 vehicles per month worldwide!

They're making a profit by having massive debt driven subsidies socialized. I thought we already covered this.

Wind is competitive with pretty much all other energy generation. Storage is an issue which is why Tesla's energy storage business may one day way outstrip their car business.

Make enough batteries to store even a fraction of what the grid provides from plants that turn 24/7, and watch what an incredible ecological disaster the mining and manufacture of all those heavy metal batteries creates. That'll be entertaining.

Oh I forgot. Tesla will just sell some carbon credits and none of that pollution from their manufacturing process will happen in unicorn land.