Terror Air Patrol (CAP)

Dr. O said:
Pilot (supposedly no license to fly) took the loacal CAP chapter's Skyhawk and crashed it hitting several buildings.
The first building hit is supposedly a lawyers office where his wife works.
I suspect there is more to the story.
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Above quoted from other thread ^^^

Based on the quote below, I'm guessing he was licensed to fly.

mkosmo said:
Yeah, he stole an airplane and wound up a smoking hole. It doesn't even mention if he's a pilot or not, but there is 1 entry in the airman database by that name that has an AK address holding a PP ASEL IR certificate and a medical that is still good for a few months.
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N801BH said:
I am surprised the CAP doesn't have Cadets out there on the perimeter line ,shouting at all the media and spectators to STAY back...:rolleyes:
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:nonod:

I used to joke about CAP Cadets a bit (flying cub scouts and the like), but I've generally found that it's far from "shouting" at people they're just trying to do the thankless job they were given.

My first night camping at Oshkosh had a 70 MPH thunderstorm come through. Minutes after it passed, the cadets were out there in droves in the North 40 helping people reset their tents, helping relocate those who had theirs destroyed beyond help, even hot chocolate.

When One Eyed Jack crashed his plane feet from where I typically (and had been) working all afternoon, we in Vintage got to do the crowd line. You've never seen such idiocy in the crowd. People jumped off moving trams to try to run into an active crash area. No yelling but we did have to position ourselves to stop people. Three hours came around and we were supposed to be at a catered dinner in town and we had no idea how we'd get free when the cap kids came marching in.

I've never seen more polite kids outside of those raised by active military. The guys given the job of sitting out writing down the N numbers of arriving planes in case someone forgets to close a flight plan are always very appreciative when we offer them refreshments from our volunteer supplies.
 
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
 
bullwinkle said:
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
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Make a phone call to GAWG (the guy to talk to is either the wing commander, or preferably the "DO," who is in charge of flight safety and training for the state). Or call the First Air Force at Maxwell AFB.

http://gawg.cap.gov/wp/?page_id=559

http://www.au.af.mil/au/holmcenter/CAPUSAF/

Either of those WILL get attention, and probably across the state. Especially if CAP-USAF is involved. Be specific or it gets deniable.

There is no excuse for lack of professionalism in CAP aircrews, and it is taken seriously in at least some circles. Especially when FAR violations are involved -- right base in left traffic will cause conniptions. But it is not necessary to break a FAR to get attention. Just flying like an ***hole can do it. And I've witnessed the CAWG commander first ground a right seater and then kick him out of CAP for touching controls without permission (not a first offense, though). Yes, it happens.

It took only three complaints last summer to get every California squadron lectured on professionalism. It didn't help that one of them was a presidential TFR bust -- but it was a "clip" and the FAA chose not to prosecute it (I don't know why, but a possibility is that that CAP aircraft do serve defense purposes sometimes). Nevertheless, CAWG was furious.
 
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bullwinkle said:
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
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Hyperbole?
 
bullwinkle said:
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
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What airport? You list your location as "The South", which is a big place. If I can pass along some feedback and maybe get to the reason for right hand patterns, I'll do what I can to help.

Also, it's not about flying cheaply, it's about performing public service. Any pilot that gets into CAP for cheap flying quickly gets out.

The aircraft that crashed was a 172 S model.
 
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bullwinkle said:
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
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It's the call sign - easy to recognize 'em when they mess up. When I was still involved, our wing's pilots were all over the map, from low time PP SEL to ATPs, retired fighter jocks, etc. I think they're about as proficient (or not) as the general pilot population. But everyone notices the CAP 1234 call sign, like a ted flag.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Hyperbole?
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Not at all, this exact scenario happened to me, this is how it played out:

DIAMOND: "Diamond 12345, left downwind, runway 23."

CTSW (ME): "Flight Design 509CT, turning left base, runway 23."

CAP: "CAP Flight 67890, entering a right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "Uh...CAP flight, you have two airplanes making left traffic for runway 23, one on base. Is it still your intention to make right base for 23?"

CAP: "Roger, CAP 67890 on right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "CAP flight, that is against regulations, and pretty stupid. I suggest you do something else."

[long pause]

CAP: "CAP 67890 is crossing midfield to enter a left downwind for runway 23."
 
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Sundancer said:
It's the call sign - easy to recognize 'em when they mess up. When I was still involved, our wing's pilots were all over the map, from low time PP SEL to ATPs, retired fighter jocks, etc. I think they're about as proficient (or not) as the general pilot population. But everyone notices the CAP 1234 call sign, like a ted flag.
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I know lots of call signs around here, and there are several flight schools from Atlanta that use our airport for practice. The CAP guys make more boneheaded plays than even the students do.

Again, not generalizing against CAP. Just relating how it is in this particular area.
 
bflynn said:
What airport? You list your location as "The South", which is a big place. If I can pass along some feedback and maybe get to the reason for right hand patterns, I'll do what I can to help.
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Thanks, PM sent.
 
bullwinkle said:
Not at all, this exact scenario happened to me, this is how it played out:

DIAMOND: "Diamond 123DA, left downwind, runway 23."

CTSW (ME): "Flight Design 509CT, turning left base, runway 23."

CAP: "CAP Flight 789CP, entering a right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "Uh...CAP flight, you have two airplanes making left traffic for runway 23, one on base. Is it still your intention to make right base for 23?"

CAP: "Roger, CAP 789CP on right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "CAP flight, that is against regulations, and pretty stupid. I suggest you do something else."

[long pause]

CAP: "CAP 789CP is crossing midfield to enter a left downwind for runway 23."
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Very interesting that you and the preceding Diamond both announced direction of turns, when according to regulations left IS the default, unless otherwise published. In either case, why mention it? I would only do that if there were a NOTAM for a temporary change in procedures to an airfield and it was a reminder for everyone including me.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Very interesting that you and the preceding Diamond both announced direction of turns, when according to regulations left IS the default, unless otherwise published. In either case, why mention it? I would only do that if there were a NOTAM for a temporary change in procedures to an airfield and it was a reminder for everyone including me.
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I always announce direction of my turns, as do 90% of pilots around here and everywhere else I have flown. Why? It can help prevent big problems like the one that almost occurred in my anecdote.
 
Now that I think about it, I've done it on occasion also.
 
bullwinkle said:
Not at all, this exact scenario happened to me, this is how it played out:

DIAMOND: "Diamond 123DA, left downwind, runway 23."

CTSW (ME): "Flight Design 509CT, turning left base, runway 23."

CAP: "CAP Flight 789CP, entering a right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "Uh...CAP flight, you have two airplanes making left traffic for runway 23, one on base. Is it still your intention to make right base for 23?"

CAP: "Roger, CAP 789CP on right base for runway 23."

CTSW: "CAP flight, that is against regulations, and pretty stupid. I suggest you do something else."

[long pause]

CAP: "CAP 789CP is crossing midfield to enter a left downwind for runway 23."
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Please be careful about posting call signs and tail numbers. It's JUST like posting someone's name.

And it's the wrong one. That tail number is registered to an individual in Arizona.

No CAP callsign has that form. They are all four digits, sometimes abbreviated with three if the first is a zero. Don't use any call sign at all if it isn't verbatim. "[CAP aircraft]" will do just fine. And the "CAPFlight" call sign is sometimes still used by ATC, but not by any CAP pilot, for many years.

Details really matter for something like this. Post specific stuff that can be proven wrong, and the pilot in question can just say it didn't happen.

I really hope this isn't a complaint about one incident 20 years ago.
 
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bullwinkle said:
Not to generalize, but the CAP in my area is a menace. They are constantly in everybody's way, not making or responding to radio calls, doing right base pattern entries with other airplanes flying left traffic for the same runway, and just generally being stupid.

I appreciate the CAP function and recognize that it's a good way for a lot of people to fly cheaply, but from what I hear the competence of CAP pilots is all over the map. And around here they are literally...all over the map.
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Got to love a Sport Pilot talking about being a menace.
 
MAKG1 said:
Please be careful about posting call signs and tail numbers. It's JUST like posting someone's name.

And it's the wrong one. That tail number is registered to an individual in Arizona.

No CAP callsign has that form. They are all four digits, sometimes abbreviated with three if the first is a zero. Don't use any call sign at all if it isn't verbatim. "[CAP aircraft]" will do just fine. And the "CAPFlight" call sign is sometimes still used by ATC, but not by any CAP pilot, for many years.

Details really matter for something like this. Post specific stuff that can be proven wrong, and the pilot in question can just say it didn't happen.

I really hope this isn't a complaint about one incident 20 years ago.
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The only actual number I posted is my airplane's. The others are 123DA and 789CP in the same vein as people post "spamcan 12345" when talking generically about other airplanes.

I assumed people would figure it out. No pilots' reputations were harmed in the making of this anecdote.

EDIT: For those who take things a bit too literally, I have changed the numbers to '12345' and '67890'. If that's not enough to placate you, seek counseling.
 
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bullwinkle said:
I always announce direction of my turns, as do 90% of pilots around here and everywhere else I have flown. Why? It can help prevent big problems like the one that almost occurred in my anecdote.
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Yep, a left base is different than a right base. Always tell the other airplanes exactly where you are. That's what I was taught.
 
bullwinkle said:
The only actual number I posted is my airplane's. The others are 123DA and 789CP in the same vein as people post "spamcan 12345" when talking generically about other airplanes.

I assumed people would figure it out. No pilots' reputations were harmed in the making of this anecdote.

EDIT: For those who take things a little too literally, I have changed the numbers to '12345' and '67890'. If that's not enough to placate you, seeks counseling.
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FWIW I thought this was obvious when reading it.
 
bullwinkle said:
... No pilots' reputations were harmed in the making of this anecdote. ...
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Your comment reminded me of an aphorism I saw recently and liked: "Data is not the plural of anecdote."

I don't think there is any reason to believe that CAP pilots are significantly more or less competent than the average. In fact, the bottom end is probably pulled up a bit by the required annual checkride and the regular contact and discussion with other pilots. But there will always be anecdotes. And there will always be people who cite anecdotes, thinking that they prove something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 
bullwinkle said:
I always announce direction of my turns, as do 90% of pilots around here and everywhere else I have flown. Why? It can help prevent big problems like the one that almost occurred in my anecdote.
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I see nothing wrong with this. The OP prevented and corrected a pilot who should know better, especially if he/she was monitoring the other planes in the LT (established) pattern, but he/she may have just switch over and was flying the easy way in, for him, and not heard the calls. At least he/she reacted properly and flew the pattern with the established pattern. . My home airport has RT to 34 and LT to 16 due to populated areas northwest of the airport so it may be even more appropriate.

Now those that land and back taxi on the runway when there is a perfectly fine parallel taxiway with no clearance or weight problems, well that bugs me. Especially when it's a CFI with a student! As a CFI I have informed a few of them when they parked. Diplomatically of course, not as an airport Nazi. Promise. :D
 
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airdale said:
Your comment reminded me of an aphorism I saw recently and liked: "Data is not the plural of anecdote."

I don't think there is any reason to believe that CAP pilots are significantly more or less competent than the average. In fact, the bottom end is probably pulled up a bit by the required annual checkride and the regular contact and discussion with other pilots. But there will always be anecdotes. And there will always be people who cite anecdotes, thinking that they prove something. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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It's true, BUT a specific command response is merited to a specific anecdote, at least if it can be traced to a specific pilot or group of pilots. If it really were a regular thing, that should be little trouble. A phone call to Wing DO with time, date, and call sign should easily be enough to identify the entire aircrew. And they are all responsible (that's part of CAP -- it's a team).

If behavior is accepted tacitly, it is accepted. To end such behavior, it needs to be reported. I seriously doubt GAWG would be satisfied with any incident that can get tied to poor aircrew professionalism. No one has a right to fly CAP aircraft, and per CAPR 60-1, a phone call like this will get the crew grounded right away, pending investigation.

Though I will suggest not overlooking the possibility that it might have been a student pilot. Cadets are permitted to do that on their own dime if they can find a CAP instructor willing to take it on. Adults aren't (not for primary training), but they can undergo refresher training such as prep for a BFR or IPC, or HP or glass transition.
 
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MAKG1 said:
It's true, BUT ...
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Agree completely. I was just reacting generally to the few but relentless CAP-bashers who regularly show up on these threads.

Different/ subject: On the topic of traffic calls, I always say the direction of the pattern I am flying. It costs nothing. Another good idea I got from a CFI friend a number of years ago is to identify the airplane in a useful way: "N12345, white Cessna, is left downwind for three-two."

Providing color and type makes sense to me because then if someone in the traffic pattern spots an airplane, they might be able to tell whether it is me or not. Providing a tail number is completely useless.

I also identify a CAP Gippsland as "white Cessna" because nobody knows what the he# a Gippsland is. Last time I checked, there wasn't even an FAA type designator for it.
 
ChrisK said:
... It is "GA8". ...
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Thanks. I thought they might have gotten it by now; that's why I said [CYA] "last time I checked."

I'm pretty sure that GA8 used to be the designator for some kind of Grumman. I remember looking it up because it would have been the logical one for a Gipps.
 
airdale said:
Thanks. I thought they might have gotten it by now; that's why I said [CYA] "last time I checked."

I'm pretty sure that GA8 used to be the designator for some kind of Grumman. I remember looking it up because it would have been the logical one for a Gipps.
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Yeah. That's the GA7.

That whole series is confusing!
 
CAP still has GA8s? I thought the whole ARCHER thing got discredited with the Fossett search. I've never seen one of those, and I don't think CAWG has any. It does have a couple of nice turbo 206s, though. For mountain searches.
 
MAKG1 said:
CAP still has GA8s? I thought the whole ARCHER thing got discredited with the Fossett search. I've never seen one of those, and I don't think CAWG has any. It does have a couple of nice turbo 206s, though. For mountain searches.
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They do. GLR has a couple.
 
airdale said:
Agree completely. I was just reacting generally to the few but relentless CAP-bashers who regularly show up on these threads.

Different/ subject: On the topic of traffic calls, I always say the direction of the pattern I am flying. It costs nothing. Another good idea I got from a CFI friend a number of years ago is to identify the airplane in a useful way: "N12345, white Cessna, is left downwind for three-two."

Providing color and type makes sense to me because then if someone in the traffic pattern spots an airplane, they might be able to tell whether it is me or not. Providing a tail number is completely useless.

I also identify a CAP Gippsland as "white Cessna" because nobody knows what the he# a Gippsland is. Last time I checked, there wasn't even an FAA type designator for it.
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The G8 - one of the most unconfortable aircraft I've ever flown in (photog in the back seat). I learned to bring a cushion with me. I talked with the Gipps people at OSH last summer - they said they've offered to replace the current seats with the upgrade in the 5(?) remaining CAP G8s (Colorado has one) but CAP turned them down.
 
MAKG1 said:
CAP still has GA8s? I thought the whole ARCHER thing got discredited with the Fossett search. I've never seen one of those, and I don't think CAWG has any. It does have a couple of nice turbo 206s, though. For mountain searches.
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Colorado has one, I think the ARCHER is still installed but I don't think anyone is using it. Most of the time, the G8 is used for photo shoots, since we can put a photographer on each side of the airplane and not worry about W&B like in the 182s.
 
bullwinkle said:
I know lots of call signs around here, and there are several flight schools from Atlanta that use our airport for practice. The CAP guys make more boneheaded plays than even the students do.

Again, not generalizing against CAP. Just relating how it is in this particular area.
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Fair enough - sounds like maybe you have a couple cheese brains in your area; if they aren't too connected, maybe the DO will straigten them out. If it helps at all, the truly gacked eventually get filtered out - they are supposed to get annual check rides from diffrent IPs, so some slip by for a while.
 
airdale said:
Agree completely. I was just reacting generally to the few but relentless CAP-bashers who regularly show up on these threads.

Different/ subject: On the topic of traffic calls, I always say the direction of the pattern I am flying. It costs nothing. Another good idea I got from a CFI friend a number of years ago is to identify the airplane in a useful way: "N12345, white Cessna, is left downwind for three-two."
QUOTE]
May I suggest modifying the verbiage a wee bit, and telling us at which airport you're landing?

"Podunk traffic, Cessna 12345, left downwind three-two, Podunk"

Unless your airport CTAF ifreq sn't shared/stepped on by others? There a several airports in my area with like-numbered runways, sharing freqs.

Unless your airplane is all red, or orange, and not predominantly white, the color is pretty much not of interest. . .
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