Tell me about the PA-46 Matrix (especially compared to the PA-32R)

RussR

RussR

En-Route
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
4,391
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
Display Name
Display name:
Russ
A client of mine, who I fly for off and on, has a 2006 or 2007 PA-32R-301T, the turbo, retract Saratoga. He is a pilot as well, and I do fly it for him on occasion.

He has recently become interested in the PA-46R-350T Matrix, the unpressurized, piston version of the PA-46.

I have very little time in the Meridian, but none in the Matrix.

Honestly, this doesn't seem like that much of an upgrade to me. But I don't know much about them, real world performance and such. A little bit faster I guess, but without pressurization we're still down low or on oxygen. More comfortable in the back? I know it's not easier getting into the front.

Real world performance numbers?

In general, what type of insurance checkout requirements can we expect? Are they starting to require formal sim classes for these? (I know it's dependent on experience, but just in general terms).

Thanks.
 
I can't answer too many of your specific questions, but I can say that you will spend a boatload more on maintenance with the Matrix. Not as roomy either.
 
Not a great selling airplane. Piper produced a little over 200 in total, half of that in the first year it was introduced.
May have been intended as replacement for the Saratoga TC, which Piper discontinued the same year it introduced the Matrix.
In the 5 years 2011 to 2015 Piper was annually selling 35 to 45 pressurised Mirages and barely averaged a dozen Matrix models per year.
 
I got an insurance quote of $6800 earlier this year for a Matrix with $700,000 hull value. That’s with CPL, IFR, MEL, and 250 hours of complex time in a DA42 and an A36. I think they wanted 10 hours of transition training.
 
Last edited:
My guess is the insurance checkout will be something similar to an SR22.

I see no reason to get a Matrix when you can get a pressurized Malibu for not a big Delta.
 
In my opinion, there really isn't much of a reason for the Matrix to exist when the Malibu/Mirage will do everything the Matrix can and offer more flexibility.

Insurance wise, the Malibu/Mirage generally requires initial and annual recurrent training that can be burdensome to some pilots wishing to step up. I'm not sure if the Matrix generally triggers the same training requirements or not, I've never gotten a straight answer from the local company who owns one (I go through recurrent training every year anyway so I've never bothered pushing for details).

The PA46 is a nice airplane to fly. The mechanical systems are easy to understand and simple, although the electrical systems can get complicated. At lower altitudes I'd flight plan at 180 knots for cruise. They're not a real good short field airplane and climb performance isn't the best but it's adequate.

The biggest detractor to the PA46 is the 43' wing span. It won't fit in many T-hangars so it eliminates some prospective buyers.
 
I thought the Matrix was cool when I first read about it. Then I spoke to a few PA46 experts, and every one of them said it falls into the same category as its pressurized siblings when it comes to insurance and recurrent training. Reach out to someone like Joe Casey at Casey Aviation. He will tell you the truth, and he’s also one of the largest PA46 advocates out there.
 
GRG55 said:
Not a great selling airplane. Piper produced a little over 200 in total, half of that in the first year it was introduced.
May have been intended as replacement for the Saratoga TC, which Piper discontinued the same year it introduced the Matrix.
In the 5 years 2011 to 2015 Piper was annually selling 35 to 45 pressurised Mirages and barely averaged a dozen Matrix models per year.
Click to expand...

@GRG55 is going full @Pilawt on us with all sorts of ‘facts’ and stats and whatnot.....
 
eman1200 said:
@GRG55 is going full @Pilawt on us with all sorts of ‘facts’ and stats and whatnot.....
Click to expand...

Every now and then the engineer in me tries to escape.

Horrifies my wife, makes the dog growl at me, gets the neighbors chattering, results in unapproving glares from my co-workers and (former) friends. Last time it took a couple of years before people forgot and I finally got invited to a party. :p
 
The biggest competition to the Matrix is the Mirage/Malibu. For 100-150k more you can get a pressurized version. As far as comparing to the Saratoga, the Matrix is much bigger, faster, goes farther, flies high better Has AC standard, is FIKI, has an air stair, and feels like a mini airliner. Insurance companies will often not require quite the rigor of the Mirage, since it is not pressurized. It is, however, a big aircraft, which requires a big hanger. Maintenance is going to be more, it has more systems. Personally, if you’re looking for a six seater aircraft, it really does offer the most room, most range, and most performance of the typical six seat unpressurized market. I typically flew mine in the high teens, but occasionally going up to flight level 250 for weather. In fact I flew so much at altitude, in the Rockies, on O2 that it was my main reason for upgrading to the pressurized Mirage. If I flew mostly on the East Coast, not sure I ever would’ve upgraded. I would have to say my matrix is one of my favorite aircraft, no maintenance outside of annual. It is one of the safest air frames flying, with no recorded US fatals in the air frame. This is my beloved matrix. Loved that airplane.

11A8845B-783F-4D92-8867-F279B684C79F.jpeg
 
I have flown Serial number 1 since 2012.

Cool things:
The basic cool thing about the plane is that you can fly it at 4KMSL and then fly it at 18K MSL on the same trip.
Decent UL
FIKI
VERY comfortable for pax.
Fast.

Tough pills to swallow:
Things break...and they are pretty costly to fix when they do. Odd thins break for seemingly no reason.
Avidyne EX5000 is an inferior product. Get the G1000

That said,if he is looking at a PA46...buy pressurized. You will be glad you did.
 
I’ve got a few hours in the pressurized Malibu. One of the sweetest flying planes out there. Pressurization is what really sets the type apart but does add a new dimension of expense and complexity. Probably a better choice if most of the flights will be of the shorter duration types. If not I’d go pressurized for the comfort and envelope that it opens.
 
Kelvin said:
I have flown Serial number 1 since 2012.

Cool things:
The basic cool thing about the plane is that you can fly it at 4KMSL and then fly it at 18K MSL on the same trip.
Decent UL
FIKI
VERY comfortable for pax.
Fast.

Tough pills to swallow:
Things break...and they are pretty costly to fix when they do. Odd thins break for seemingly no reason.
Avidyne EX5000 is an inferior product. Get the G1000

That said,if he is looking at a PA46...buy pressurized. You will be glad you did.
Click to expand...

They’re beautiful airplanes. I wish they could shave 18” off of the wingspan.
 
What about the PA46 makes it more maintenance intensive than other piston single retracts?
 
Cervieres said:
What about the PA46 makes it more maintenance intensive than other piston single retracts?
Click to expand...


FIKI and all that entails (heated windshields are eye-wateringly expensive)
Twin Turbochargers
Recurring AD and SBs
TONS of systems


They do require a lot of wrenching...no denying that...
 
Thanks @Kelvin and @Rockymountain - that's great information, and I will readily admit if I discounted the advantages of it over a Turbo Saratoga.

We got the insurance quotes back, and one of the requirements for both of us is initial and recurrent training. That's not a surprise, I get that type of training in other aircraft.

But when I did some searching, it seems that most of the initial courses are 4 or 5 days. This seems reasonable to me for one of the turboprop versions of the PA-46, but at first glance seems a bit excessive for a piston-powered, unpressurized 6-seat airplane.

Is the Matrix really that complicated of an airplane? Or difficult to fly? Or are the syllabi really based on the turboprop versions, and they just kept it the same for the Matrix?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm the reincarnation of Bob Hoover or anything. And I'm not trying to minimize the plane or its capabilities or systems, etc at all. If the plane needs 4 or 5 days of training to learn about, okay. But heck, I did an insurance-approved one-day training course in a Cessna 421 last year. Certainly that's a more complex airplane than a Matrix, no? I mean, I could create a 5 day course to transition people to a Cessna 172 if I wanted to, but most people would consider that overkill. The American Bonanza Society's Beechcraft Pilot Proficiency Program has some online modules, but then only about 4 hours with an instructor - and that includes some 6-seat, turbocharged aircraft.

However, I will bet that at the end of that week, we will know every nook and cranny and every detail about that airplane.

I don't know what I don't know. Educate me please.
 
Call Bill or Diane at Legacy Flight Training in Vero Beach about the initial training length. My initial was three days. LOTS of great SIM time. LOTS of details about the 'numbers" of the air frame. Worth every second, worth every penny. I still hear the trainer talking to me when I fly.

Are you an MMOPA member? If not, join TODAY. This is THE best type club in existence. You will save your membership fee each and every year through the knowledge gained through MMOPA resources.

I HIGHLY recommend Legacy. VERY thorough.

That said, consider pressurization. You will be glad you did.
 
RussR said:
Is the Matrix really that complicated of an airplane? Can be. But not after 25 to 50 hours in it..

Or difficult to fly? No.

Or are the syllabi really based on the turboprop versions, and they just kept it the same for the Matrix? Look closely at Legacy's course descriptions. The initial is now 4 days...
Click to expand...

Link
 
Kelvin said:
That said, consider pressurization. You will be glad you did.
Click to expand...

Hah! Oh, I'm sold on pressurization. But as mentioned in the OP, I'm just the hired gun here. It's quite possible the partners (one of whom is a pilot) will look at the training requirements (initial and recurrent) and decide maybe they no longer really need my services...

Or, of course, which its greater capability, it could be that they're going to fly more and need my help more than now. No idea.

I am not involved in the purchase decision in any way.
 
Kelvin said:
FIKI and all that entails (heated windshields are eye-wateringly expensive)
Twin Turbochargers
Recurring AD and SBs
TONS of systems

They do require a lot of wrenching...no denying that...
Click to expand...

Most of that stuff doesn't really cost anything to have, until it does, then it can get expensive. The most annoying and convoluted system I've seen on these airplanes is the stupid stall warning computer, which seems to never be quite right.

Overall, I haven't found that the Mirage takes that much more maintenance than anything else in the hangar that I also maintain and fly.

RussR said:
But when I did some searching, it seems that most of the initial courses are 4 or 5 days. This seems reasonable to me for one of the turboprop versions of the PA-46, but at first glance seems a bit excessive for a piston-powered, unpressurized 6-seat airplane.

Is the Matrix really that complicated of an airplane? Or difficult to fly? Or are the syllabi really based on the turboprop versions, and they just kept it the same for the Matrix?
Click to expand...

I've only done initial and recurrent training for the Mirage, not the Matrix, but I'm betting most of the same training material is used for all the piston airplanes. Legacy does tailor the training to your airplane and avionics, which may strip out a little of the training for the Matrix, mainly the parts pertaining to pressurization.

In my opinion, the airplanes are pleasant to fly and not terribly difficult. I didn't feel 4 days was really necessary for an initial training course on the piston airplanes but I may have felt different if I didn't have as much knowledge about aircraft systems and experience flying higher performance aircraft when I went to school.
 
FIKI is not standard on the Matrix like it is on the Mirage, it's an option, I think around $55k for the boots/windshield to add it to a Matrix.
 
The PA46s are pretty easy to fly. They remind me more of a giant DA40 than a big SR 22. Very docile stall characteristics, a big wing that love to fly high. For somebody with complex piston time initial is probably a little bit long, but for somebody stepping up from a less complex piston probably about right. A lot of the training is on systems, not just how to operate them, but how to take care of them, and how not to break them. Rather than the PA 46 initial recurrent being excessive, it is probably more true that typical piston aircraft training is probably less rigorous than it should be. Something is working. Still no US fatal accidents in the Matrix.
 
Larry benveniste said:
Is a matrix as difficult to insure as an m350?
Click to expand...

Check out posts #4 and #6 on this thread.
They'll give you at least a baseline for what you need to be considering.
 
Cervieres said:
I got an insurance quote of $6800 earlier this year for a Matrix with $700,000 hull value. That’s with CPL, IFR, MEL, and 250 hours of complex time in a DA42 and an A36. I think they wanted 10 hours of transition training.[/QUOTE
Cervieres said:
I got an insurance quote of $6800 earlier this year for a Matrix with $700,000 hull value. That’s with CPL, IFR, MEL, and 250 hours of complex time in a DA42 and an A36. I think they wanted 10 hours of transition training.
Click to expand...
Cervieres said:
I got an insurance quote of $6800 earlier this year for a Matrix with $700,000 hull value. That’s with CPL, IFR, MEL, and 250 hours of complex time in a DA42 and an A36. I think they wanted 10 hours of transition training.
Click to expand...


Can I inquire about your level of experience?
Click to expand...
 
I did a quick inquiry. I’m 70 with little flight time. I was asking whether it would be realistic to expect that I could do enough training that I might aspire to the 350. I was pretty much shut down.
I’m healthy, have tons of time to commit and have the resources to do it right. Yet, I was discouraged. I am moving into my instrumentation training and now plan to buy a Bonanza or cirrus high end. someday, if possible I’d like to transition to an m600. That plane seems a lot more reliable. It was built for those altitudes. Not so sure about the 350.
 
Larry benveniste said:
I did a quick inquiry. I’m 70 with little flight time. I was asking whether it would be realistic to expect that I could do enough training that I might aspire to the 350. I was pretty much shut down.
I’m healthy, have tons of time to commit and have the resources to do it right. Yet, I was discouraged. I am moving into my instrumentation training and now plan to buy a Bonanza or cirrus high end. someday, if possible I’d like to transition to an m600. That plane seems a lot more reliable. It was built for those altitudes. Not so sure about the 350.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone was trying to "shut you down". Certainly if you have the time, money, aptitude and attitude there's no reason you can't aspire to a pressurized Piper.

A number of us have pointed out that the PA-46 isn't viewed as a difficult airplane to fly. But it is a fast, complex airplane and you are by your own admission a ~100 hour pilot still working to achieve a PPL (if I understood your posts on another thread correctly). Most students achieve their PPL in about half that number of hours.

Low time & fast/complex don't generally mix well. It's a progression from PPL student to IFR at altitude in a complex pressurized airplane. Lay out a plan for yourself with your instructor and get after it. Nothing is stopping you; certainly not any of us here that have already travelled this path and from whom you asked advice.
 
Thank you! I didn’t mean to suggest that I was shut down here. Quite contrary, this site and you guys are helping me a bunch as I figure this out. First let me clarify about me. I have my. Ppl., took 50 hours and was a blast. I had responded to an add for a 350 and the agent called me back. I told him of my aspiration and he connected me to an insurance guy. That guy shut me down! Made it seem that cost would be like $100k! If I could get a quote. I could self insure the plane and get just liability.
Again, you guys have been great. Thank you!
 
Larry benveniste said:
Thank you! I didn’t mean to suggest that I was shut down here. Quite contrary, this site and you guys are helping me a bunch as I figure this out. First let me clarify about me. I have my. Ppl., took 50 hours and was a blast. I had responded to an add for a 350 and the agent called me back. I told him of my aspiration and he connected me to an insurance guy. That guy shut me down! Made it seem that cost would be like $100k! If I could get a quote. I could self insure the plane and get just liability.
Again, you guys have been great. Thank you!
Click to expand...

As I mentioned in the other thread, I’d expect to see an insurance premium of 1-2% of hull with a good amount of flight experience. You can do the math on a $1.2m hull...

So without a fair bit of experience the insurance premium goes up (way up). The real question is, can you afford the premium and do you want to?

The whole reason I started flying the M350 is similar to your situation only the owner has close to 1000 documented hours of flight experience. He has a private but no instrument rating. He viewed the insurance requirements to get himself insured in the plane as too high so I got insured and I fly it for him. He flys his other toys, some of which are insured and some of which are self insured. Losing a $100k airplane hurts but it isn’t the end of the world to him but losing a 1.2M plane would be a bit more substantial.
 
Great feed back. I would really like to fly myself since it’s all recreational. I can probably be happy with a lesser plane, like cirrus, though I know that could be expensive too.

this is the question I still don’t have a clear answer to. If I commit to do the work, as long as it won’t take me longer than 2-3 years (during which time I’m flying my plane and looking for additional pressurized turbo training opportunities. Could I aspire to fly a pressurized. At this point, I would shoot for a pre-owned m600, cost in the range of 1.5 - 2 million.

I could pay insurance premiums of 1 - 2 % if I new I could get the policy.
Thanks
 
Larry benveniste said:
Great feed back. I would really like to fly myself since it’s all recreational. I can probably be happy with a lesser plane, like cirrus, though I know that could be expensive too.

this is the question I still don’t have a clear answer to. If I commit to do the work, as long as it won’t take me longer than 2-3 years (during which time I’m flying my plane and looking for additional pressurized turbo training opportunities. Could I aspire to fly a pressurized. At this point, I would shoot for a pre-owned m600, cost in the range of 1.5 - 2 million.

I could pay insurance premiums of 1 - 2 % if I new I could get the policy.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Once you get your Instrument rating and around 750 hours total time I think the insurance companies will be alot more friendly. If your willing to pay 1-2% premium I don't think you'll have a problem. The key is securing your IFR ticket and building time. Preferably in a complex high performance such as a Bonanza or Saratoga. Cirrus is high performance but it won't count towards complex time which all the Piper M class planes are.
 
Thanks Anthony. That is the clearest answer I’ve received and I’m going for it! 750 hours is a lot, but ... it’s a lot..of fun! Now I can rule out the Cirrus.
 
Larry benveniste said:
Thanks Anthony. That is the clearest answer I’ve received and I’m going for it! 750 hours is a lot, but ... it’s a lot..of fun! Now I can rule out the Cirrus.
Click to expand...
After you get your instrument rating and a few hundred hours in a Bonanza or high performance retract single, you can buy your dream airplane and hire a pilot to fly with you. Insure it based on the hired pilot, build time in the airplane with the pilot and then you become insurable. :D Not ideal, but it should work. Honestly, you don’t want to be flying a pressurized turboprop without a good bit of real world flying under your belt. Most are fairly simple to operate, but the difference between 110 knots and 260 knots is huge! If it’s your dream, go for it!! Nothing like the smell of Jet-A
 
That would be faster and I like idea of having one in the beginning! Do you think a year or so of a lot of flying accompanied?
I
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top