..Tell me about Mooney

jesse

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Jesse
Seems like there is a lot of bang for the buck with Mooney. I've never flown in one--never sat in one--I've never even looked inside the cockpit. I don't know any of the models or what they mean...but I'm pretty sure I need one.

Teach me so that I can buy one. Thanks :)
 
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Well, once upon a time there was this guy named Al . . .
Seems like there is a lot of bang for the buck with Mooney. I've never flown in one--never sat in one--I've never even looked inside the cockpit. I don't know any of the models or what they mean...but I'm pretty sure I need one.

Teach me so that I can buy one. Thanks :)
 
BTW--I'm actually serious about this. Trying to figure out where to start :)
 
And Al liked backword tail...

So he went in business, built some airplanes and went broke about every five years. Some people bought some of the airplanes anyway.

The end.
 
Christ..they've made a lot of models..how does one keep track of all that? Is there some sense of "series" in there--and major differences between them?
 
Jesse, the Mite would fit you quite well. Though, you might have to limit your ammunition load.
 
You climb into most airplanes, but you wear a mooney like a suit.
The older models are rather snug if you are a large person.
 
I'm starting to make sense of this....

Seems like I'd be looking at either a M20F / M20G /M20J

How much faster is the J....and on average how much more money?
 
Also--what are the known gotchas--I gather you need to re-seal the tanks about every 10 years at $7,000... Anything else unique to Mooney?
 
Big help, huh?

Light, speedy (for the power), very efficient.

Built hell-for-stout, known for that, single-piece spar. Built in Texas, too, very near where I sit now.

M20A wood-wing, cheap, 1960-ish. Generally not loved, for all the same wood-wing bias reasons.

M20B, M20C - 180 HP, "short" cabin (a little tight in the back, but still adequate).

M20E, 200HP, short cabin.

M20F - Longer cabin, 200HP.

M20G, Long cabin, 180 HP- sorta doggy, I've heard.

M20J (called 201), perhaps one the finest combinations of elements ever built- 200HP, longer cabin, lotsa airframe clean-ups for extra speed. Exceedingly efficient, you may have noticed that they hold their value *very* well, with just cause.

M20K, adds turbocharging to make the 231 or the 252. Hot rods, but 231 has reputation (I have no idea whether earned or not) for eating engines. 252 has intercooler.

I won't get into the later ones (R, M, S, T), big engines and big speed and big price tag.

Mooneys known for being difficult to land, a rep I understand to be utterly undeserved if one knows how to read an airspeed indicator and apply its data to landing at the proper speed.

Up to 1968, most had manual landing gear (the "Johnson Bar"), which is great if you like simple, elegant and effective mechanisms for raising and lowering the landing gear and doing so in about a second. Not so good if you store stuff on the cabin floor where the gear lever resides in flight.

Reputation for leaking fuel tanks in teh wet wings (ie, no bladder), which I have heard is also unearned in properly-maintained aircraft. Some say they are not good on grass, but Lance Flynn and Michael Driggs (among others) missed that memo.

Bottom-line: exceptional aircraft, known for fine handling and durability. Not huge inside, but few planes are, and you ain't exactly Hulk Hoigan either.
 
I've always been told there are really three basic M20 model's. The short body (M20-M20E), the medium body (M20F-M20J) and then the long body (Post M20J to current). I believe that anything M20C model or older has the Johnson bar landing gear. Originally, the M20D model was a fixed gear model, but there was an aftermarket kit to bring them back to retracts.
 
I got a few hours in a 1977 M20J aka M201 a few years ago. Got my complex endorsement in it, and didn't find it all that intimidating or hard to land. Cruised nicely at around 155 knots (yeah, I know - they advertise 170k cruise - this one didn't make that then) at less that 10gph.

I really liked that airplane.
 

That is NOT an OWT, not to me. I WANTED to be able to fit in an Ovation that I went and looked at. I am about 6'5" and 215-220 lb, and there was no way I was going to ever be comfortable in that plane. Mooneys are supposed to be OK for tall pilots, but with the seat all the way back, my knees/upper shins were against the lower side of the instrument panel, and my head was touching the roof, even without a headset. (Not to mention the cramped side-to-side seating).

Of course, I do not fit in Bonanza/Baron, either, nor Grumman Tigers (with the cowling closed!).

Cessna for me. (Formerly 177RG, now 210)

Wells
 
Seems like there is a lot of bang for the buck with Mooney. I've never flown in one--never sat in one--I've never even looked inside the cockpit. I don't know any of the models or what they mean...but I'm pretty sure I need one.
What makes you think you need a Mooney as opposed to some other airplane?
 
I've got several hundred hours in a J, and some time in C's and G's and R's and one flight in the Orgasmo (Acclaim).

If you want to go fast while not burning much gas, the Mooney is the champ. It's accomplished by being very clean aerodynamically, which means that it feels like a sports car when you sit in it - at 6'3" and 240 (back then) I was comfy in the Mooney. Not cramped, but I was definitely aware of how close the sides of the airplane were. Two adults, bags and full fuel are no problem. Start trading fuel for more stuff.

Very strong airplane, very nice IFR platform. Ice has a BIG effect on the mooney wing and tail. Landing them is a piece of cake ONCE you get them slowed down. It's not hard to do, you just need to think an extra 30 seconds ahead on speed management.

The gear is a very simple mechanism, but the electric gear does have a weakness in the alternate extension system. The clutch used is not the stoutest in the world and a failure leaves you with no gear control at all. Not a major worry, but it's not like the "fall free" gear mechanisms in some other planes.

Great plane. Company has it's financial ups and downs but parts are still readily available. Insurance for folks without significant retractable experience is high.

Think of it this way. If a C182 is an Impala/LTD, a Mooney J is an RX-8, and a Bonanza is a high-end Mercedes ubercar. All three are well-refined designs for their mission and their market.
 
That is NOT an OWT, not to me. I WANTED to be able to fit in an Ovation that I went and looked at. I am about 6'5" and 215-220 lb, and there was no way I was going to ever be comfortable in that plane. Mooneys are supposed to be OK for tall pilots, but with the seat all the way back, my knees/upper shins were against the lower side of the instrument panel, and my head was touching the roof, even without a headset. (Not to mention the cramped side-to-side seating).

Of course, I do not fit in Bonanza/Baron, either, nor Grumman Tigers (with the cowling closed!).

Cessna for me. (Formerly 177RG, now 210)

Wells

It could sure be argued that in your case the airplane wasn't really small as much as you were "not small". :D

We have another very large member that has stated on more than one occasion that he fits very well inside of the mooney.
 
What makes you think you need a Mooney as opposed to some other airplane?

When looking at Cessna 172s, for example, the entry price seems to be mid to upper $40s for a nice airplane with a 430. For an extra $5-10k you can get a nice G or F Mooney with a 430 and an autopilot and an extra 15-25 kts while burning the same amount of fuel.
 
Well, I've got about 100 hours now in that fine machine that you saw me show up to Ames in, a 1974 M20F Executive.

145 KTAS at about 10.5 GPH. Interior is actually better than a Cherokee space wise. Additionally, the seat backs are easily removable (takes about 2 minutes for both, once you get the trick down), which gives you an awesome cargo area. I have some pictures of taking a bunch of dog crates in there with that configuration.

In terms of bang for the buck and what you can likely afford, the M20F is probably what you're looking at (unless you want the smaller Mooney). The Js are expensive. You can get an M20F for under $50k easily. The electric gear is nice. It does have a reputation for failures. The M20F I fly has had two gear-up landings in its life, however neither of them were due to the electric gear. One was due to pilot error ("What's that buzzing sound?") and the other was due to the nose wheel physically not coming down. This was not due to the electrics, it was because it got kinked when some line guy turned it too far. There are two different electric gear motors as I understand it. One requires inspections every 100 hours, the other one doesn't. The manual gear extension seems to work well, at least it has when I've practiced using it. It's fairly low effort.

This plane had seeping wet wings. You can have them resealed, but when the owner talked to the various places that reseal the, it was basically about $5000-$7000, and it wasn't guaranteed. The places that did the sealing didn't want to do it, and said they really don't recommend it because it only gets worse with time. The "proper" fix is to get bladders installed, which we did, to the tune of $11k. Nowever that also gives you 64 gallons total (up from... I think 58?), so that is a nice upgrade for long XCs.

As an IFR XC machine, the M20F is great. I had no issues hopping in it and flying out to Ames. It's very stable, has a nice cruise speed with fuel burn only slightly higher than a 172 or Cherokee, and after a few months you convince yourself that the aesthetics are "unique" rather than "ugly." :)

The owner of the M20F I fly does not want it landed on grass, so I haven't. I don't see why it would be an issue, but it's his plane so it's his choice. It's not the best short field plane in the world (the Archer definitely takes off faster), but I think you'd still be fine at Gaston's and 6Y9. If it were my plane, I'd fly it into and out of the two of them.

For a while, we were dabbling with the idea of me buying into the plane rather than my rental arrangement. The only reason I didn't was because I wanted a twin. I even considered buying into it in spite of my plans to buy a twin, but decided that really wasn't a smart move. I don't fly enough to justify owernship in two planes.

The first year of ownership for them seemed to be about comparable to what my first year of ownership has been on the Aztec. Every time they flew it it seemed like something else went wrong on it or they discovered a new "quirk." Like I said, my Aztec ownership experience has been somewhat similar, and so I attribute that more to the previous owner than to any inherent Mooney characteristics.

There is a turbo STC for the M20F, and I've noticed it doesn't add a tremendous amount to the resale value. I will tell you that if I were buying one, I'd go for that, but that's because I like to go on long XCs where if I had the turbo and O2, I'd climb up high and take advantage of the winds and higher TAS.

For a good deal on a single engine IFR XC machine, I can't say enough good things about the M20F. It's really a very practical and economical machine. The only reason I would consider, say, a Comanche, would be if I were to get the 6 cylinder. Otherwise I have flown both, and prefer the M20F hands down.
 
Jesse,
I'm sure you are thinking passengers but if you are looking for an affordable personal runabout you should consider an M18 Mite. I've not flown one but have studied them and everything I've heard is positive. I'd probably go for the Continental motor and have seen complete IFR panels in some. Yea, it's just you and your bag but the speed for the fuel burn is fantastic.

Of course the RV3 still probably takes the cake for single seaters...
 
Its too bad Michael's not around anymore, he'd be able to give some really good insight!

From my time in Mooneys, I'll say this: They're tiny as hell. But you are a tiny dude, and Tristan is a tiny chick, so there's plenty of room for both of you and then some.

They're fast, but not as fast as people claim (you'll notice that MOGs usually compare MPH to Knots to seem faster than they are). For example - Michael's M20C flew around 160MPH at around 8-10gph from what I gathered. That's pretty damned fast, but its not the 160Knots that MOGs claim.

Usually, people say "Join the Owner's Group," but the MOG is probably the most useless organization I've ever seen or heard of, and the smug that comes from them will make you gag.

Bad stuff out of the way, the M20C is a fantastic airplane, and with the Johnson bar for the gear, you're not likely to experience a gear failure provided you remember to put them down. They land like a dream if you hit the numbers properly, and they always draw attention when you arrive. Also - the "Your tail's backwards" catcall comes almost everywhere you go, and its a sign that someone's impressed. lol.

There is an issue with the wetwings, but I'll be damned if I know the details. I would certainly get that checked before buying a specimen tho.

And Jesse, dammit, if you become one of those smartass "I'm better than you" Mooney owners, I'll make a special trip up to Nebraska to find a river and throw you in, I swear to God.
 
Jesse, I've owned both an M20F (early 68) and an M20J. As you know I'm 5'8 and about 155 lbs.

The F model was highly moded with a rajay manual turbo and could get 175 knots up high on about 70% power. 950 useful load. Stock Fs with good panels run about 75K. Stock early Js runs about 90, with 430- generation stuff.

Watch out for the late 1968 Fs which are not flush riveted, they are slower by about 5 knots. Mooney had been bought by Butler Aviation, the BIG FBO, and they cheaped the process for about 8 months before it was sold again.

The stock F (Turbo wastegate open) runs about 150 knots at 8,000.
the stock J runs about 160, if it's in perfect rig.

Downsides about the J- I actually like the manual gear on the F. Manual gear Fs that have ben converted to electric - what were the owners thinking?!!.

The flap pump is not available, but is usually just a barrel hone and O-ring rebuild. It'll last forever.

SB208b needs have been done. And the tanks need to NOT leak. NO "added sealant on top" reseals, please....they all re-leak. Look for small traces of blue around rivet edges on the wet wing, and if you see ANY that have not been scrubbed out with a toothbrush, deduct $10,000 from the price.

When I got to the age where reaching between my feet for the fuel selector was an issue, a Piece of double notched 1.5" PVC drain pipe 12" long would do the job!
 
5 year and 600+ hour owner of an '84 M20J here. Most of my hours are IFR XC.

If you can hold out until Gaston's, you can fly mine. I'm willing to bet you'll find it comfortable, very responsive in its handling and easy to land. I will share real world performance numbers and costs with you.

Don't OD on the wet wing, the corrosion inspection SB or the gear clutch issues. There is so little wrong with the plane people overemphasize these just for something to talk about. All can be taken care of with a proper prebuy or lower initial cost.

I'd be glad to answer any specific questions.
 
Many think the C-182 is the best all around GA airplane. I would add the Mooney M20J to that list. Yeah, its that good.
 
The only thing I don't like about Mooney is the retractable landing gear. This isn't Mooneys- I'd feel the same way about any retract. I'm concerned I'd leave the gear up on landing. Considering that I sometimes forget the GUMPs check in a Cessna, I think it is a real fear. I don't recall forgetting the GUMPS in a Piper Cherokee where it matters somewhat more, except on my initial checkout- so maybe I'd get over it:dunno:

I want to emphasize it's not Mooney- just me...
 
"Gotta be smarter than what you're workin' with" is one of the limitations pilots are supposed to know. Sounds like you've got it down pat. :p

The only thing I don't like about Mooney is the retractable landing gear. This isn't Mooneys- I'd feel the same way about any retract. I'm concerned I'd leave the gear up on landing. Considering that I sometimes forget the GUMPs check in a Cessna, I think it is a real fear. I don't recall forgetting the GUMPS in a Piper Cherokee where it matters somewhat more, except on my initial checkout- so maybe I'd get over it:dunno:

I want to emphasize it's not Mooney- just me...
 
A really fun plane to fly and a great x country machine. Its slippery and doesn't burn much for the speed so in the long run I think its worth it. I only have experience with the C model. I fit in it well. I'm 6'4" and 210 so if you're narrow you don't have to worry about it.
On the downside I hear they're a bastard to work on because of the way things are laid out in the cowling. I don't recall it having such a great payload either. All and all I'd say go for it. Hell, I'd buy one.
 
Seems like there is a lot of bang for the buck with Mooney. I've never flown in one--never sat in one--I've never even looked inside the cockpit. I don't know any of the models or what they mean...but I'm pretty sure I need one.

Teach me so that I can buy one. Thanks :)

Well, they're from Texas, and like anything from Texas, the stories are grander than the realities. The had to be in TX because it's the only place Mooney owners can wear a 10 gallon hat to fit their egos in. They are heavy handed and a lot slower than they should be if you listen to all the Mooney owners who refer to speed in Mach....:rofl:

Why do you want a Mooney? What will a Mooney do for you that a Lancair 360 won't faster and cheaper.... You don't seem like a person who has a whole lot of use for a back seat and a bunch of luggage and would probably prefer the extra 40kts for the fuel $$$.
 
Also--what are the known gotchas--I gather you need to re-seal the tanks about every 10 years at $7,000... Anything else unique to Mooney?

PITA engine access, especially on the older ones. Tiny windows, again on the older ones. Until you get into the J they're just ugly, almost Bellanca ugly. The tail is very efficient, the entire thing is on a hinge to trim, and the "backwards sloped tail" on the vertical is also an excellent thing. It provides the maximum rudder size for the minimal prismatic coefficient. The wing is stout as all hell.

For the price of a J, you can get an Oshkosh winning Lancair 360.
 
Christ..they've made a lot of models..how does one keep track of all that? Is there some sense of "series" in there--and major differences between them?

Naah, they've really only made 4 models. M10, M18, M20, M22. ;)

Okay, so the vast majority of Mooneys are the M20x ones. IIRC the M10 was their name for the Ercoupe while they held that baton, the M18 is the Mite, the M22 was the Pressurized Mooney and everything else is an M20-something.

You have short, medium, and long bodies, as others have talked about. The most popular are the C, F, and J - C is short body, the F and J are the medium. You'll probably end up with an F or a J. The difference is that the J is a lot cleaner and goes about 15 knots faster - Up to 160 knots if everything's as it should be. A lot of F's have some mods to make them more like J's, and thus, faster. For example, the "smile plate" cowl mod. Stock F's have a single, very large cooling opening in the cowl, the bottom half of the spinner is the top part of the opening and it goes all the way around the sides to where "normal" cowl openings are. The smile plate is shaped like a smile and covers the bottom part of that opening, vastly reducing cooling drag. There's also a sloped windscreen mod, the stock one was fairly upright and draggy, the J has a sloped windscreen that causes much less drag. This mod was also available on the C models.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned at all yet is that they're very sporty-handling airplanes. The ailerons go full deflection with the yoke only 45 degrees off center instead of 90 like most airplanes. Definitely fun. :yes:

I know how you like spins... DO NOT spin the Mooney. When I flew with Ed G I was doing a stall and he STOMPED on the rudder at one point because I might have been just a hair uncoordinated. He got into a spin (inadvertent, I think, on the part of the CFI he was with at the time) while working on his CFI and it took several thousand (5 or 6, IIRC) feet to recover. :hairraise:

Mooneys known for being difficult to land, a rep I understand to be utterly undeserved if one knows how to read an airspeed indicator and apply its data to landing at the proper speed.

Wow. Whoever thinks Mooneys are hard to land is on crack. I did 5 landings on my first Mooney flight, and greased every one. I couldn't believe it - and I LOVED it instantly! The speed comment is right on, of course, as it is with any clean airplane.

That is NOT an OWT, not to me. I WANTED to be able to fit in an Ovation that I went and looked at. I am about 6'5" and 215-220 lb, and there was no way I was going to ever be comfortable in that plane. Mooneys are supposed to be OK for tall pilots, but with the seat all the way back, my knees/upper shins were against the lower side of the instrument panel, and my head was touching the roof, even without a headset. (Not to mention the cramped side-to-side seating).

Really? Weird. I'm 6'4" and, um, a lot more than 220 :( and I fit great in the M20J/201. Normally I have to get the seat in an airplane *just* right - Too far forward and my knees are in the yoke, too far back and I have to lean forward to get to the radios. In the Mooney, with the seat not even all the way back (I think 2 notches from the rear) my legs were pretty much straight and the panel was easily within reach. It's not wide side-to-side, you're right, but what it felt like to me was a Cherokee that had the instrument panel a foot or more closer to you. Also, since the yoke only goes 45 degrees each way from center, there was more room under it for my legs.

It could sure be argued that in your case the airplane wasn't really small as much as you were "not small". :D

We have another very large member that has stated on more than one occasion that he fits very well inside of the mooney.

Hey, that's me!

Here is the thread that I posted after my first Mooney flight: Call me a Mooniac!
 
Well, they're from Texas, and like anything from Texas, the stories are grander than the realities. The had to be in TX because it's the only place Mooney owners can wear a 10 gallon hat to fit their egos in. They are heavy handed and a lot slower than they should be if you listen to all the Mooney owners who refer to speed in Mach....:rofl:

Why do you want a Mooney? What will a Mooney do for you that a Lancair 360 won't faster and cheaper.... You don't seem like a person who has a whole lot of use for a back seat and a bunch of luggage and would probably prefer the extra 40kts for the fuel $$$.

Yep, nothing safer than a L/A. Just another everyman's airplane. Never hear about anything bad happening to those darts. F-100 Sabres are going pretty cheap too.
 
Which Model had the fuel injected IO-360? A Local gentleman had one with Rajay Turbo.

He claimed he would fly cross country at 25,000 feet and run it Lean of peak at about 7.5 gallons per hours. I don't recall for sure what kind of speed he said he was getting but it seems like it was well in excess of 160kts. Of course this is all 2nd hand information, but that combination seems like it would be ideal to me for efficient cross country flying.

Brian


Brian
 
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When I move back to Colorado, I'm getting a 231 with the better turbo conversion.

Maybe Greg and a someone else will go in on a really nice one with me?
 
Which Model had the fuel injected IO-360?

Both the F and the J, IIRC.

A Local gentleman had one with Rajay Turbo.

He claimed he would fly cross country at 25,000 feet and run it Lean of peak at about 7.5 gallons per hours. I don't recall for sure what kind of speed he said he was getting but it seems like it was well in excess of 160kts.

Yeah, but that's cheating. ;)
 
I had a Grumman Cheetah that I thought was about as good as it gets. Then, last October, I bought a 1980 M20-J. It is the best move I ever made for my mission. I needed more speed for some serious cross-country flying.

The Mooney gets about 150-155 KTAS, and I've seen over 195 K over the ground. Lean of peak, fuel consumption goes as low as 8.5 GPH, while 50- degrees rich yields 10 GPH +/- where I cruise her.

Landing is a non issue as long as you can read and understand an airspeed indicator. Too fast, and you'll porpoise. Third porpoise and you help the guy at the prop shop send his kid to college and your mechanic add that new bathroom.

I've had no problems with the gear. The airplane has bladders (54.5 gallons usable); consistently hard or bounced landings exacerbate the wet-wing leak problems.

I'm not tall and think I'm at about the bottom of the range for comfort. Adding 3" rudder-pedal extensions helped. Don't know what the upper limits are for height.

You need seriously to consider you mission before sinking a lot of money into a plane you don't need, even in this economy. For serious cross-country flying (500+ miles), the Mooney gives you a lot of bang for the buck. For 150-mile jaunts to get the $200 hamburger, there are other planes that fit the bill (the Cheetah or Tiger, e.g.) for a smaller investment and lower ongoing expense. There are great buys on Grummans right now.

Parts are readily available and as reasonably priced as anything in aviation. There are good mechanics around to work on them. There didn't seem to be too many ADs on the J when I bought it, the one requiring examination of the cockpit tubing for rust being the one most mentioned.

With all the Mooneys out there for sale, you should be able to get a really good one for a reasonable amount of money. Get one with everything you want on it already installed. As someone said before, if it hasn't been detailed, move on.
 
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