Yeah, the TSIO360-MB1 is the one you wantbut be prepared to pay....
Yeah, you aren't getting one of those for $50k...not an airworthy one....
..Tell me about Mooney
- Thread starter jesse
- Start date
Yeah, you aren't getting one of those for $50k...not an airworthy one....
gkainz
Final Approach
L/As do require attention as a pilot, you can't be lax or lazy in your flying. You better know the plane by feel as well as the numbers, you find low energy by stick feel, not ASI. It is a plane that can turn around and bite you a new a--hole faster than you can say WTF. The MkII tail settled a lot of issues with them. That said, there are plenty of people who fly them safely, and I think Jesse would be just fine in one.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
I'll start buying lotto tickets right away!
LOL! We can try to convince people we can't fly cause it snows all the time. Maybe a weather lotto!
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2005
- Messages
- 9,486
- Display Name
Display name:
Pilawt
Short-body M20E ("Super 21", "Chaparral", 1963-74: snug, simple speedster);
Medium-body M20F ("Executive", 1966-76: roomier but a bit slower than M20E);
Medium-body M20J ("201", "205", "MSE", "Allegro", 1976-97: M20F after speedmeister Roy LoPresti got done with it. IMHO best of the breed).
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
I couldn't be comfortable in one that somebody else built, as I've seen too many problems that showed up well after construction was completed. And since I couldn't build a soap-box racer by myself, they are pretty much NWJ's here. Do they all crack, or just some of them?
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,006
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
The one I rode in was built by its owner. He had 1500 hours of flying time in it. Didn't crack. I got to fly it. Found it to be a wonderful plane that did exactly what you told it to. The catch being if you told it to kill you, it would, but if you don't tell it to kill you, that problem is easily avoided.
Lancairs are great planes. You need to pay attention and know what you're doing with them. It seems the majority of the people who crash them are doing something stupid, and that's the cause of the crash rather than the plane.
I was considering buying a 320/360 when I ended up getting the Aztec (I know, makes no sense to most people). The reasons I didn't had nothing to do with the plane itself, and I would still like one. It is possible to find them in Jesse's price range, but the problem is that they will tend to be either marginal IFR planes or VFR only.
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
The cost of maintenance is higher than any other aircraft because mechanics hate working on them.
If you bend the gear it will be more expensive to repair than any other retract. and the line guys can bend the gear pretty easy.
Add 250+ to the annual for a retract test, and gear check.
Constnt speed prop to maintain.
behind the panel repairs or instrument replacement is a night mare.
I don't know a single A&P that wouldn't rather own a Bonaza.
If you bend the gear it will be more expensive to repair than any other retract. and the line guys can bend the gear pretty easy.
Add 250+ to the annual for a retract test, and gear check.
Constnt speed prop to maintain.
behind the panel repairs or instrument replacement is a night mare.
I don't know a single A&P that wouldn't rather own a Bonaza.
My log books and every invoice from 5 years of operation of an M20J are open to anyone. Tom, your posting is ridiculous and a disservice to anyone considering buying a Mooney.(IMHO, of course)
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,889
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
BZZZT, wrong! Yes, resealing the wings is a PITA and is expensive. But you CAN get a guaranteed reseal job from one of several specialty shops. The bladders eat useful load and are prone to chafing. When I had a M20J, I went the reseal route and, three years later when one small seep started, the shop that did the reseal fixed it free, promptly and without complaint.
Some other things to look out for: Mooneys have torque tubes instead of cables for the aileron and elevator control. Depending on the airplane, sometimes they get corroded.
I loved my 201. Fabulous first plane. If not for kid #3 coming along, I probably would still have it to this day.
poadeleted20
Deleted
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2005
- Messages
- 31,250
Still wondering what made a Mooney the perfect airplane for Jesse's needs.
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,889
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
The 201 is slick enough that if you are on short final gear up you simply cannot go slow enough without sticking the nose way up in the air. The trim change that comes with gear extension is similar to what other airplanes get with flap extension. In the 201, hit the gear down and the nose down electric trim at the same time, and they run close enough to the same speed that the nose just puts itself in the right spot without you even having to think about it. Plus the gear lever in a Mooney is up high, right in your face. It's a great combination of attributes. Gear up in an Arrow, I can understand. Gear up in a Mooney ... not so much.
Cool, fast and retractable.
He rides a crotch-rocket, too, Ron...
---
Edit:
...safely!
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,889
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
That would basically be a 252 (aka Encore in the later model years).
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 30,006
- Display Name
Display name:
iFlyNothing
I'm not sure how this shows my point being wrong. You got it fixed, the fix broke, which is exactly what we were told would happen. You're right that the bladders have compromises. We did lose some useful load, but we also gained several gallons of usable fuel, which is very nice. Trouble-free so far (although that "so far" has only been 6 months or so).
Tom-D
Taxi to Parking
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 34,740
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom-D
What did you have done in 5 years?
Did you replace the rubber donuts in the gear?
Did you have a bent nose gear (towbar over extend) replaced?
what did you pay for an annual? with retract inspection included?
The hours to do any thing on a Mooney, is higher than any aircraft I can think of..simply because there isn't room to do anything.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
Thanks Ken. I forgot that model number. I think a lot of the 231's have been converted to 252's, although I am not sure about that.
Everything necessary.
Yes
No
$820 to the IA plus a couple of hundred in parts this year; yes
Balony
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
I was under the impression that access for maintenance was drastically improved in later models compared to the earliest ones. WRT getting at the dirty side of the instrument panel the same is true of Bonanzas.
Ken Ibold
Final Approach
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 5,889
- Location
- Jacksonville, Florida
- Display Name
Display name:
Ken Ibold
For example, up through the early 201s, the belly had about 327 inspection panels held on by 192 screws each. Eventually, Mooney gave the belly one big inspection panel.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
lol ken. thats some funny math.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
The M20E Chapparal is the best plane I've ever flown--and the club had an Turbo M20K as well. Jesse, you know me--I'm not a small guy; the M20E was FUN as HECK and costs a lot less to maintain than an M20F/J/K. You're a small guy--the M20E would be perfect for you. Try to find one and go for a ride. You'll fall in love.
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
el con
Line Up and Wait
Jesse
A friend of mine just bought an M-20?J ,he had a 182turbo.
He's enjoying the 150-155 kts at 8-10gph.
I sat in it I'm 6' and 230,side to side same feel as my Cherokee,front to back seemed like more room.
His first impressions on flying it was it was easy to fly, just needed to watch slowing it down on approach.He has speed brakes. Oh yeah and getting the gear down (new to him)
The Lancair is certainly a quicker bird ,but aren't it's legs a little wimpy for grass? Gaston's, 6Y9,are places you frequent.And I haven't seen many cheaper than a Mooney.
Bonanza's are a terriffic airplane except for the fuel burn, and if you want to know what a part cost's just weight it and and convert to the London metals market for the current price of gold.
I think as seen on the board ,as with every plane made, there is no perfect solution other than we all need five different planes.
Buy it ,fly it, keep it if you like it, sell it if you don't.
If you've got the bucks buy it now,almost every bird out there has dropped in price.
A friend of mine just bought an M-20?J ,he had a 182turbo.
He's enjoying the 150-155 kts at 8-10gph.
I sat in it I'm 6' and 230,side to side same feel as my Cherokee,front to back seemed like more room.
His first impressions on flying it was it was easy to fly, just needed to watch slowing it down on approach.He has speed brakes. Oh yeah and getting the gear down (new to him)
The Lancair is certainly a quicker bird ,but aren't it's legs a little wimpy for grass? Gaston's, 6Y9,are places you frequent.And I haven't seen many cheaper than a Mooney.
Bonanza's are a terriffic airplane except for the fuel burn, and if you want to know what a part cost's just weight it and and convert to the London metals market for the current price of gold.
I think as seen on the board ,as with every plane made, there is no perfect solution other than we all need five different planes.
Buy it ,fly it, keep it if you like it, sell it if you don't.
If you've got the bucks buy it now,almost every bird out there has dropped in price.
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
Well, I am a huge Mooney fan. However, that is a little harsh on the Bo. You can throttle them back, still get close to Mooney speeds (depending on the model) and burn 12 GPH. Beech's are well built. The whole parts thing is overblown, IMHO. Yeah, parts are expensive. Its an airplane and a darned good one. EVERYTHING is expensive.
sba55
En-Route
It's not just harsh, it's wrong.
Flown correctly, a Bonanza will do 168 knots on 11.7 gph. That's the worst case; I've seen better. It's about 20 knots faster than most Mooney's and the fuel flow isn't that different. Parts are more expensive, but they also last longer.
Buying a Mooney isn't about fuel burn. The Bo and the Mooney happen to be the two most aerodynamic airframes around. Buying a Mooney is about sacrificing some speed and room for a much better price.
-Felix
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Which Bo, what weight, atmospherics and power setting provides those numbers? I've got a POH right here by the table.
sba55
En-Route
It doesn't vary that much with model year and atmospherics. Mostly, WOT, 20 dfLOP, 10,500', V35A with the factory NA IO520. You can fly at peak at that altitude, too, for slightly better speeds. The -550 is slightly more efficient, so the numbers are a little better. The -36 models are a few knots slower. Interestingly, given the same fuel flow, the -360s are less efficient than the -550s.
-Felix
Anthony
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 18,478
- Display Name
Display name:
Anthony
Totally agree.
IMHO, the best all around Mooney is the M20J with a 200HP four banger out front. The Bo's are all six cyl. aircraft. Apples and oranges, however, the Bo gives you more flexibility, but as you say you must pay for that.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Felix, I think you're overstating the Bonanza performance unless you're talking about flying along the upwind side of the mountains. The Bonanza Jesse would be most likely to afford would be one of the earlier V-tails with 225 or 250 HP. The one I had was 225 and I could cruise at 145 KTAS on about 10 gph or 155 KTAS burning about 13.5 gph. Of course this was before I knew anything about LOP and some folks claim they've been able to get these engines to perform satisfactorily in that mode which would save about a half gph for the same speeds.
Bottom line is both airplanes are decent cross country birds but the Mooney is a bit more efficient and the Bonanza is stronger and lighter on the controls.
el con
Line Up and Wait
I'm just having fun with you guy's. I don't have a mooney or bonanza just a lowly PIPER CHEROKEE. Haven't flown or flown in either.
Just repeating all the BS you here from other pilots I know that have them ,had them, going to get one ,or would never get one.
It's amazing to me how opposite some of these expert's statements are.
So everybody out there be careful of those tiny ,squeeze in mooney's and those Dr. killer V tail bonanza's.( yes, I know those mods have been done)
For discussion what do you expert's think of the PIPER COMMANCHE, designed by AL Mooney and about the size of the earlier bonanza's.
IMHO-Commanche-250
Strong airframe with stout landing gear
155 -160kts
10-15gph fuel burn
About anything you can squeeze in it can carry
Selling for less than mooney's or bonanzas.
Well--- let's hear it
Just repeating all the BS you here from other pilots I know that have them ,had them, going to get one ,or would never get one.
It's amazing to me how opposite some of these expert's statements are.
So everybody out there be careful of those tiny ,squeeze in mooney's and those Dr. killer V tail bonanza's.( yes, I know those mods have been done)
For discussion what do you expert's think of the PIPER COMMANCHE, designed by AL Mooney and about the size of the earlier bonanza's.
IMHO-Commanche-250
Strong airframe with stout landing gear
155 -160kts
10-15gph fuel burn
About anything you can squeeze in it can carry
Selling for less than mooney's or bonanzas.
Well--- let's hear it
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
brad, ive just got a few hours in a comanche. a 250 version with the rayjay turbo. cool airplane. pretty roomy inside and good performance. i liked the way it handled. i think it'd make a good airplane for hops up to 6Y9.
If you're talking finish cracks, yes, they all do, it's because the substrate has a higher modulus of elasticity than the finish coat so you end up with fine checking and cracking in the paint or gelcoat. Ultrasound instruments are available relatively cheaply now so checking composite structures is not as difficult as it was. As far as repairing anything you don't like, it's quite a straightforward process to cut out scarf and replace the material, not much different from scarfing and splicing a Dutchman in a wood spar that gets a spot of rot.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2008
- Messages
- 12,013
- Display Name
Display name:
Wayne
Yeah, right. Instruct your troops to carry on, I'll be in the area for the remainder of the day.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
What are the planes made of? Finish coat? Are the materials different than those used in fiberglass boats? I saw only a few gel cracks in my sailboats and they used to take a pounding. Why would the plane show more gel cracks than the boat (assuming the same materials)?
As you mention, gel cracks are easy to fix- I'd rout them out, fill them (color match from the manufacturer), and sand with progressively finer wet & dry paper until the repair disappeared.
Composite planes vary from S glass to Carbon Fiber and often have Kevlar tapes and panels, and there are even come carbon rovings that have Kevlar mixed in. I have recently been playing with some cloths that have mixed carbon and polyethylene strands that are proving out very nice, light, strong and bouyant.
Typically the finish in a composite plane will be a linear polyurethane which is a hard coating with limited pliability so while it may show hairline cracks especially in radii and fillet joints that see routine flexation, there is no damage to the substrata. Gelcoat checking is more an issue of shrinkage at a different rate than the layup and can be minimalized with frequent waxing. Typically you'll find it in and growing from tight corners where vibratory stresses meet.
tonycondon
Gastons CRO (Chief Dinner Reservation Officer)
yea, we flew up there for the mechanic to check something on a prop replacement he had done. That place is awesome.