Technique question - Split Master switches

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
Just for fun...

Flew with a different instructor the other day and he asked at startup, "Do you prefer to switch both sides of the master on at start, or keep the alternator off?"

Now honestly, I DO know why you'd leave the alternator side off in cold weather for start, or anytime you needed maximum spin to get the thing started, but with every Cessna manual and checklist for all the stuff I've ever flown simply saying, "Master on", I normally don't "split" it for start.

But thinking about it some more, I may change my ways. :).

He mentioned they always start split in their club aircraft and then do the voltage warning light and ammeter check by observing both for correct behavior when they turn the alternator side on.

Curious what your technique is. If you have a split master, do you split it for start? If you fly something other than Cessnas did you learn it from your POH's checklist or somewhere else?

By the way, I do always split it at run-up to make sure our "high voltage" light illuminates and there's appropriate changes on the ammeter as an add on to the run up engine instrument checks, since It flows in there nicely when you're already looking at the engine and electrical system cluster. You can't really forget it that way. You're looking at the checklist by just looking at the cluster.

That was learned mostly from months of fighting a balky voltage regulator in our airplane, many years ago. We'd get all sorts of goofy things. HV light illuminating at takeoff, popped a main bus breaker once. All sorts of screwball stuff.

And of course in 70s vintage Cessna land, for those unaware, the "high voltage" light actually can be caused by three things... high voltage cut out by the voltage regulator, LOW voltage cutout (brilliant labeling isn't it), and any failure of the alternator field voltage provided by the voltage regulator.

The light really should just be labeled, "electrical system pooched". :) High voltage isn't the only thing that will illuminate it.

But anyway. What say you? Start split and then bring the alternator online, or start with the dual switch on, both sides?

(And understood and acknowledged that many aircraft have real separate switches for this and SOP in those on their checklists is to split them naturally. I'm mostly interested in the aircraft that have the dual sided switches and what people were taught to do, and where they picked it up.)

After reading this are you thinking about changing your method?

I thought it was an interesting question he posed. It certainly stopped my before start checklist and flow...
 
I start split on PA28. A/P when I first bought it told me to do that, so there it is.
 
I've never split the master on engine start for Cessna's, Piper's, etc. In the Cirrus, per the POH, we start the engine with just BAT 1 and BAT 2 and both alternators off.
 
Start split, look at amps n volts after switching alt on. Leave it on through shut down. Avionics master on after the alternator is alternating, off before the alternator stops alternating.
 
An alternator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. When a electrical field is applied, the alternator requires more energy to rotate. When you start the plane with the ALT switch on, you take power from the battery to excite the alternator and your starter requires more energy to rotate the engine.
 
An alternator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. When a electrical field is applied, the alternator requires more energy to rotate. When you start the plane with the ALT switch on, you take power from the battery to excite the alternator and your starter requires more energy to rotate the engine.
Really? Gosh, gee willikers. Nobody could ever guess that.

Did the sarcasm make it through?

Next time the alternator is on please note how much power is generated below about 800 rpm. Tell me exactly how much extra load is on the battery during start? As Nate mentioned it's not enough to matter for the most part.
 
An alternator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. When a electrical field is applied, the alternator requires more energy to rotate. When you start the plane with the ALT switch on, you take power from the battery to excite the alternator and your starter requires more energy to rotate the engine.

Absolutely correct but the extra power it takes to start the engine is quite small compared to the power required to start the engine.

If the split start technique is required to start the engine, your battery is so weak you risk being stranded at the next start away from the home field. Charge or replace your battery as necessary. -Skip
 
I always switch both sides of the master on. The ALT lights stay illuminated until engine start.
During run-up I check each one by putting a temporary load on it, usually the pitot heat on one side, landing light on the other (still waiting for the GE bulb to fail so I can spend AMUs on an LED replacement).
 
That was totally unnecessary.
You are entitled to your opinion. Mine was obviously different. Should my opinion be suppressed simply because your opinion was different?
 
I do whatever the POH says.

There is something you havent considered and that is the effects of starting voltage spikes in the electrical system. Capacitive loads spike on switch on. Inductive loads spike when you turn them off. Things like that MAY influence manufacturers design choices. My Husky has a split switch and you only turn on the Master (which operates a relay so the battery is in the circuit). Then once it starts, you turn on the alternator. Seems like the best way because it saves battery. But I do it that way because thats how it says to do in the POH.
 
You are entitled to your opinion. Mine was obviously different. Should my opinion be suppressed simply because your opinion was different?
Who's suppressing? You don't have to be a jackass about it.
 
Who's suppressing? You don't have to be a jackass about it.
You are attempting to suppress. You don't like something I type or say? Fine that is your business. If you expect me to do something different because of your opinion well then you are going to be disappointed.
 
You are attempting to suppress. You don't like something I type or say? Fine that is your business. If you expect me to do something different because of your opinion well then you are going to be disappointed.
I'm not even Clippy's pal and I came to his defense.

OK, be a douche, no skin off my nose.
 
I'm not even Clippy's pal and I came to his defense.

OK, be a douche, no skin off my nose.
All hail the great and wonderful paflyer. His word is truth and there can be no other opinion! All Hail!

...and that was more sarcasm just for paflyer...
 
What's really exciting is when someone gets talked into peeing on a spark plug!
it's easier to charge a capacitor, leave it laying on a workbench and then asking someone to hand it to you...perhaps not as spectacular results though.
 
All hail the great and wonderful paflyer. His word is truth and there can be no other opinion! All Hail!

...and that was more sarcasm just for paflyer...

new-book-alleges-richard-nixon-had-an-affair-with-a-florida-businessman.jpg
 
But back to the OP; With one of our club planes we replaced the alternator at a rate of one every 20 months. After discussing with an A&P during the last alternator change, he suggested Split Switch starts. Since switching to that method we haven't replaced an alternator in over for four years.
 
And of course in 70s vintage Cessna land, for those unaware, the "high voltage" light actually can be caused by three things... high voltage cut out by the voltage regulator, LOW voltage cutout (brilliant labeling isn't it), and any failure of the alternator field voltage provided by the voltage regulator.

The light really should just be labeled, "electrical system pooched". :) High voltage isn't the only thing that will illuminate it.

That light is operated by the "I" terminal on the regulator. "I" is for Indicator. Idiot light. Most cars built at that time had idiot lights, and that regulator is the same sort of thing cars used, but its "S" terminal is driven by the ALT switch instead of the stator winding on the alternator, as in cars.

The light will illuminate when the S terminal gets no voltage. There's an overvoltage regulator in the Cessna, and it's in the S line between the switch and regulator. Switch off, you get light. Switch on but the overvolt detector has determined that voltage got too high and has shut the system off, or has a bad ground so its reference is screwed up, or it has failed, or the S line is broken, the light will illuminate. The light won't illuminate if the alternator itself fails.

In the car, the idiot light will light if the alternator quits because the stator that supplies the regulator's S terminal will stop feeding it.
 
...The light won't illuminate if the alternator itself fails.

In the car, the idiot light will light if the alternator quits because the stator that supplies the regulator's S terminal will stop feeding it.

That's an interesting bit of info. Presumably the indications of a failed alternator are a discharge on the ammeter and the system voltage drops to battery voltage?
 
Really? Gosh, gee willikers. Nobody could ever guess that.

Did the sarcasm make it through?

Next time the alternator is on please note how much power is generated below about 800 rpm. Tell me exactly how much extra load is on the battery during start? As Nate mentioned it's not enough to matter for the most part.

Your nav lights don't draw much either, do you start the plane with those on too? Sarcasm included.
 
Your nav lights don't draw much either, do you start the plane with those on too? Sarcasm included.
Do you disconnect the alternator when you start your car?

We can play this game all day and you will always come out on the losing end.
 
That's an interesting bit of info. Presumably the indications of a failed alternator are a discharge on the ammeter and the system voltage drops to battery voltage?

Yup. And it's why alternator failures often go unnoticed until the radios quit.
 
Do you disconnect the alternator when you start your car?

We can play this game all day and you will always come out on the losing end.

If you read my first post you'll see that the car's alternator doesn't start generating--or causing a load on the engine--until it's turning fast enough to make stator voltage to turn on the regulator and feed the alternator's field. It's not the same setup as the airplane.
 
Do you disconnect the alternator when you start your car?

We can play this game all day and you will always come out on the losing end.

Mine doesn't have a split master. The starter, 60 amp alternator and battery don't care.

Speaking of drag during start a Barron's IO470 engines will start fine on the ground with the prop in feather, ask me how I know.
 
I used to split them, but now I just push them both on together.. the amount of draw the alternator uses and load it puts on the engine during starting I've been told is virtually zero, and if you split them you run the risk of forgetting to turn them both on. Yes yes you have checklists, etc., but there doesn't seem to be any real benefit of not turning them on. You should be checking the load anyway during run-up anyway

How do I know? I started my take off roll once and the low voltage light came on, realizing I hadn't turned on the alternator.. that was enough of a warning to just turn them both on at start
 
That light is operated by the "I" terminal on the regulator. "I" is for Indicator. Idiot light. Most cars built at that time had idiot lights, and that regulator is the same sort of thing cars used, but its "S" terminal is driven by the ALT switch instead of the stator winding on the alternator, as in cars.

The light will illuminate when the S terminal gets no voltage. There's an overvoltage regulator in the Cessna, and it's in the S line between the switch and regulator. Switch off, you get light. Switch on but the overvolt detector has determined that voltage got too high and has shut the system off, or has a bad ground so its reference is screwed up, or it has failed, or the S line is broken, the light will illuminate. The light won't illuminate if the alternator itself fails.

In the car, the idiot light will light if the alternator quits because the stator that supplies the regulator's S terminal will stop feeding it.

Yeah, I knew that, but an excellent description for the thread! Thanks.

Seems ultra-intelligent that the most common and most likely to hurt you failure mode (in IMC anyway) is the one that doesn't turn on a warning light on older Cessnas. I was always kinda annoyed by that once I learned that system. :)
 
Guys, it doesn't matter. Really. Not a groat's worth over a long and happy flying career.

But pilots will argue with a mirror - I listened to a heated exchange about whether it was a good practice to pour fuel samples back into a tank. . .
 
In my opinion it is against the law to dump leaded fuel on the ground with substantial penalties for each occurrence.
 
In my opinion it is against the law to dump leaded fuel on the ground with substantial penalties for each occurrence.
Depends on the state. I do not thing there are any federal rules/fines, but would not swear to it.

Tim
 
Guys, it doesn't matter. Really. Not a groat's worth over a long and happy flying career.

But pilots will argue with a mirror - I listened to a heated exchange about whether it was a good practice to pour fuel samples back into a tank. . .

I've had instructors tell me to not dump it on the ground for environmental reasons and others tell me to not dump it back into the tank for contamination risks. I'm not sure which is better anymore. I wish our airport had collection buckets for it.

I saw a video on YouTube where some guy just drank his fuel sample, so I'm going to start doing that. He had a Cirrus so he must be smarter than me.
 
Used to dump the sumped fuel inside the tire around the tiedown on the grass strip I flew out of to kill the vegetation.

Cheers
 
Alternator off until the engine is stabilized, also off before shutdown
 
...I saw a video on YouTube where some guy just drank his fuel sample, so I'm going to start doing that. He had a Cirrus so he must be smarter than me.

They run on champagne, not 100LL.
Their definition of stale fuel is when the bubbles are gone...
 
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