TBO for a propellor

bflynn

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Brian Flynn
Looking at an airplane - on stage 2 of 10 in terms of buying.

There's an airplane that stands out to me, generally looks good, but the propellor has 4000 hours on it. TBO for this propellor is 2000 hours.

1) Is it necessary to replace it? My gut says I do want to replace it. You don't know what kind of stress fractures it might have and I'm not adventurous enough to experiment with what happens if it comes from together during flight. Am I overly cautious?
2) What's the total cost? The prop itself is 4k but it doesn't magically float onto the airplane. How much does it take to install it?
 
Fixed. PA-28-180, Sensitech prop
 
I can only answer the "how much does it take to install it" question. Remove 10 screws to take the spinner off, break the safety wire on six bolts, remove six bolts and your prop is off. Reverse procedure for installation. Takes 10 - 20 minutes tops depending on your A&P's rate.
 
4000 hrs? That a lot of hours even for fixed pitch. Suspect it just fine but if it were mine i would bolt on a new one and dress up the old one for decoration in my house!
 
Why is 4000 hours a lot of hours? Crank's can run fine double and triple that.

I'd be more concerned with corrosion or dimensional tolerances. If it looked ok I'd probably do nothing. Or if there was a concern then have a prop shop inspect, repair, as necessary.
 
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Have prop shop overhaul. If they okay it, bolt on and fly on.


This space intentionally left blank for future sarcasm.
 
Meh, how's it look and feel?

Could have it overhauled, but for a fixed pitch without any past damage history, wouldn't be a deal breaker
 
Is it even an accurate statement to say "overhaul a fixed pitch propeller?"

Dress and repitch maybe.

As long as there are no big nicks, I don't see a need to worry about a fixed pitch propeller especially on a <200HP engine.

Even constant speed propellers don't need to be OH'ed if they're not excessively nicked up IMO. IRAN is far cheaper and accomplishes the same results.

It's my understanding that OH'ing a propeller requires it to be "shaved" regardless of the condition. Thus the overall life is shortened...not lenghtened. When my engined was OH'ed I had the propeller IRAN'ed. It was something like $800...instead of $2500 (speaking from memory) and I didn't lose a significant percentage of it in the process.

But I may be misremembering.
 
Some Hartzell constant speed props have a mandatory TBO.
 
My Cherokee 140 was up around 5500 hrs on the Sensenich prop with no record of it ever having been touched. I had the prop modified and repitched. A prerequisite for the mod was that it be within the manufacturers recommendation for overhaul so it got overhauled, modified and repitched. Cost was about $800 - several years ago.
 
Why is 4000 hours a lot of hours? Crank's can run fine double and triple that.
I'd be more concerned with corrosion or dimensional tolerances. If it looked ok I'd probably do nothing. Or if there was a concern then have a prop shop inspect, repair, as necessary.
Correct, you never overhaul a fixed pitched prop. Have the prop shop do a inspect and repair as necessary, then they are not required to follow the overhaul manual, which requires them to grind the blades and make them smaller. they will strip, inspect, repair (if it needs it) refinish, balance and return. It will look like a new one when it comes back.
Time will continue. TTSN will continue, TSMO will be since the last time it was overhauled (no change) but it will have an entry in the prop log that quotes what was done.
You can even have them tweak it to a better pitch while there.
 
Hartzell recommends a TBO and recommends "mandatory" maintenance for Part 91.....the real mandatory ones come in the form of an AD from the FAA. :D
 
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Hartzell recommends a TBO and recommends "mandatory" maintenance for Part 91.....the real mandatory ones come in the form of an AD from the FAA. :D

That's what I was getting at. Manufacturer's "recommendations" are not mandatory under Part 91. Part 135 and Part 121, different story.
 
That's what I was getting at. Manufacturer's "recommendations" are not mandatory under Part 91. Part 135 and Part 121, different story.
They are mandatory for part 91 operators when they are given in the TCDS for the prop.
 
They are mandatory for part 91 operators when they are given in the TCDS for the prop.
Or via AD.

I don't know that any apply to Sensennich. Hartzell and Macaulay have been having some additional revenue generation via this technique.
 
Fixed. PA-28-180, Sensitech prop

AD #1 http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...BF791430F5C6116086256966006D11FE?OpenDocument

(c) For propellers with 500 or more total hours TIS, or unknown TIS on the effective date of this AD, inspect and rework, within the next 50 hours TIS after the effective date of this AD, in accordance with Sensenich Propeller SB No. R-14A, dated July 28, 1995. Remove from service those propellers that do not meet the inspection and rework requirements of Sensenich Propeller SB No. R-14A, dated July 28, 1995.
 
Is that according to Hartzell or the FAA?

Hartzell recommends a TBO and recommends "mandatory" maintenance for Part 91.....the real mandatory ones come in the form of an AD from the FAA. :D

Our Hartzell has both a TBO and a 7-year overhaul 'recommendation'.....from Hartzell.

Jim

FAA - Hartzell got them added to the TCDS for the props.

That's what I was getting at. Manufacturer's "recommendations" are not mandatory under Part 91. Part 135 and Part 121, different story.

They are mandatory if they're in the FAA Type Certificate data.

They are mandatory for part 91 operators when they are given in the TCDS for the prop.

Tom is correct.

These are the notes from one of the Hartzell TCDS sheets - these make the recommendations in the Hartzell manuals mandatory:

Note 11:
Retirement Time
(a) Life Limits and Mandatory Inspections
(1) Airworthiness limitations, if any, are specified in Hartzell Manuals 113( ), 115N or 117( )or 145()
Note 12:
Special Notes
(a) Refer to Hartzell Manual no. 202( ) for overspeed and overtorque limits.
(b) Refer to Hartzell Service Letter HC-SL-61-61( ) for overhaul periods.
 
FAA - Hartzell got them added to the TCDS for the props.



They are mandatory if they're in the FAA Type Certificate data.

Tom is correct.

These are the notes from one of the Hartzell TCDS sheets - these make the recommendations in the Hartzell manuals mandatory:

Not as clear and cut & dried as many think.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/365f5d2653ff6cca8625787600436651/$FILE/Order 8620_2A.pdf




  1. TCDS. Consistent with 14 CFR, a TCDS is part of a product’s type certificate (TC). A TCDS is a summary of the product’s type design. It is used primarily by authorized persons during initial or recurrent issuance of a Standard Airworthiness Certificate. It is neither a regulation, a maintenance requirements document, or a flight manual document. As such, for aircraft holding a valid and current airworthiness certificate, a TCDS should not be used as a sole source to determine what maintenance is required or what the flight operations requirements are. Any language on a TCDS, by itself, is not regulatory and is simply not enforceable.

  1. TCDS Notes. TCDS notes are intended primarily to provide information on the various requirements for issuing an airworthiness certificate as well as the type and location of various technical documents used to operate and maintain the product. Some OEM’s have placed mandatory language such as "shall," "must," and "will" on their TCDS that imply that compliance with TCDS notes is mandatory. However, in the absence of regulatory language, or an AD that makes such TCDS notes mandatory, compliance with such notes is not mandatory. It would mean that FAA regulations effectively authorize OEMs to issue "substantive rules," i.e., it would enable an OEM to impose legal requirements on the public that differ from the 14 CFR requirements. This would be objectionable for two reasons. First, the FAA does not have the
 
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In 2,500 hours of flying (which comes out to around 4,500 hours of propeller time) mostly over a few airplanes flown a whole bunch, the only work I've done on propellers is changing out some bad de-ice boots on the Aztec, plus dynamic balancing. Almost all the props have been past TBO (year and/or hours, typically year) for all the planes I flew.

For Part 91 operations, I treat props the same as engines - replace or maintain on condition. On the 414 I may replace the props, but that's because I want the 4-bladed MTs on it for improved performance, weight reduction, and quieter operation.
 
Not as clear and cut & dried as many think.

This is one that I'd run by my PMI @ FSDO.
Every airworthiness inspector I've ever met believes the TCDS is the design and must be complied with to declare airworthiness.
 
In 2,500 hours of flying (which comes out to around 4,500 hours of propeller time) mostly over a few airplanes flown a whole bunch, the only work I've done on propellers is changing out some bad de-ice boots on the Aztec, plus dynamic balancing. Almost all the props have been past TBO (year and/or hours, typically year) for all the planes I flew.

For Part 91 operations, I treat props the same as engines - replace or maintain on condition. On the 414 I may replace the props, but that's because I want the 4-bladed MTs on it for improved performance, weight reduction, and quieter operation.
Just curious, How will you rationalize that to NTSB and the FAA.
 
This is one that I'd run by my PMI @ FSDO.
Every airworthiness inspector I've ever met believes the TCDS is the design and must be complied with to declare airworthiness.
well....we know those PMIs are all knowing too. :D

I figured you and he didn't get the memo.:crazy:
 
Just curious, How will you rationalize that to NTSB and the FAA.

Same as exceeding TBO on the engine. Perfectly legal, maintain on condition. Not required to adhere to prop TBO. My mechanic signs it off every year at annual.
 
Just curious, How will you rationalize that to NTSB and the FAA.

Same as exceeding TBO on the engine. Perfectly legal, maintain on condition. Not required to adhere to prop TBO. My mechanic signs it off every year at annual.

Tom,

You keep forgetting that he's an aviation engineer and likely one helluva lot smarter than you on these matters don't you? :rolleyes:

Oh, and he's one helluva lot less righteously judgmental also.
 
Same as exceeding TBO on the engine. Perfectly legal, maintain on condition. Not required to adhere to prop TBO. My mechanic signs it off every year at annual.
TBO on any engine is a service bulletin, a life limit on a TCDS is a requirement for airworthiness, what makes a propeller type certificate any different than a life limited spar on a Grumman AA series or a Piper PA-38life limited airframe?
and.. how are we to know your prop has a life limited item?
 
Tom,

You keep forgetting that he's an aviation engineer and likely one helluva lot smarter than you on these matters don't you? :rolleyes:

Oh, and he's one helluva lot less righteously judgmental also.
well maybe he can tell us why many of the helos are life limited and required to change out high time parts as part of their type certificate? they oper ate in part 91. Robertson is a prime example.
 
Tom,

You keep forgetting that he's an aviation engineer and likely one helluva lot smarter than you on these matters don't you? :rolleyes:

Oh, and he's one helluva lot less righteously judgmental also.
No I have not forgotten he's an engineer, doesn't make him sole authority on the FARS. when was the last time he attended a IA seminar? they preach this stuff 8 hours per seminar.
 
No I have not forgotten he's an engineer, doesn't make him sole authority on the FARS. when was the last time he attended a IA seminar? they preach this stuff 8 hours per seminar.

They preach a lot of things at the IA seminars using a very broad brush, and its not all 100% true.
 
Tom,

You keep forgetting that he's an aviation engineer and likely one helluva lot smarter than you on these matters don't you? :rolleyes:

Oh, and he's one helluva lot less righteously judgmental also.
ya but....he's not an aviation (engine) engineer anymore. :popcorn::biggrin::stirpot:
 
well maybe he can tell us why many of the helos are life limited and required to change out high time parts as part of their type certificate? they oper ate in part 91. Robertson is a prime example.

LLPs and TBOs aren't quite the same, but what matters is how the particular aircraft was certified per my understanding. You mentioned the Robinson, which you are correct has LLPs (as do most if not all helicopters) that must be adhered to as part of the certification basis. I don't know enough about the details to go at them at great length, but as an example the Cheyenne and Conquest I recall as having required overhauls of props at TBO as well. This was part of the certification basis of the aircraft, and thus mandatory. When I was flying 135, our ops specs included adherence with engine and prop SBs (which is standard), and thus engine and props needed to be overhauled in accordance with the TBO SB.

I am not familiar with any regulatory documents indicating that, for the propellers I've been in charge of on the aircraft I've managed, overhaul is required in accordance with the applicable SB for Part 91 operations. I am not aware of any ADs out on those propellers that would present required inspections or overhaul, either. Nor have the appropriately certified IAs who have signed off on the annuals informed me of documents to that nature (which is 3 shops with 7 A&P/IAs). As you correctly point out, I am not an IA, so I rely on the expertise of the IAs I employ in those areas. However, I do work with my A&P/IA and if he told me that I needed to overhaul the props because of such and such a document, I would look into it before agreeing to proceed. Obviously, if there were legal requirements surrounding propeller overhaul or maintenance then I would adhere to them, and would not advise anyone from doing otherwise.

I have seen instances where manufacturers have tried to change various maintenance documents post-certification to make maintenance requirements more restrictive. Cessna recently did that with certain aircraft to try to sneak in some of their service bulletins as legal requirements. The FAA responded to inquiries about this indicating that changes of that nature would only be regulatory to NEW aircraft of that type (the aircraft in question were out of production) so it was determined their changes had no legal standing for the legacy fleet, and only an AD could accomplish what they were trying to do. I'd assume similar for a propeller manufacturer.

I have also seen instances where certain individuals within FSDOs have tried to enforce items that are not in line with the regulations.

Basically, I wouldn't take a statement saying I needed to more because of some new reg without investigating.
 
You re certainly correct that service bulletins are not mandatory for part 91 and that is where TBO's are written. TBO's are not life limits big difference.

TCDSs are the type design of the item, no matter if it is a prop, aircraft, or engine.
there are three ways I can think of that are used to set life limits, 1 of course is ADs, the second is mandatory replacement parts, these are written into the overhaul manuals when they must be used when they are required by the CRS. such as when Lycoming must follow their own manual to call it overhauled, they must replace the parts that are on the mandatory replacement list. the third is the TCDS, When the TCDS is written and approved by the FAA those items are noted and must be complied with. such as wing spars, rotor blades, etc.
 
They preach a lot of things at the IA seminars using a very broad brush, and its not all 100% true.
What they preach about life limited items is golden. Don't bet your certificates on calling a over aged item airworthy.
 
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