Tammie Jo Shults

Tarheelpilot said:
It’s private property. There is no entitlement to access for anyone. If I parked in a business without paying for services I wouldn’t have any problem being asked to leave. I think it’s unreasonable to be offended at the request to leave. If I ask you to leave and you don’t that’s trespassing. No other bad behavior required to get a call to the cops.
Click to expand...
Oh pleeze......gimme a break. Starbucks markets itself as a 'hangout spot' for people. You think this was the first time and these are the ONLY non-paying customers she's ever seen? She was a complete jackass in this incident, and the CEO admitted it (in so many words).

Can 'Nonpaying Customers' Hang Out at Starbucks Without Buying Anything? (Here's What Starbucks Tells Its Employees)
https://www.inc.com/bill-murphy-jr/can-nonpaying-customers-hang-out-at-starbucks-without-buying-anything-heres-what-starbucks-tells-its-employees.html

"the coffee giant's business model envisions people using Starbucks as their "third place ... a place to hang out that isn't home or work."

"So where's the line supposed to be? If I want to sit at a table for 30 minutes a couple of times a week and work on an article for Inc.com, should I have to buy something each time? Or should I get credit in the Starbucks business model for the many times I've bought a coffee to go? Am on a customer on my writing-only visits, or only on the times when I step in and drop $4 on a latte? I'm the same person, right?"

IF "we" are sincere about curing the cancer of racism and bigotry in this society..."we" must call it out whenever and wherever it rears it's ugly head. Like it did here!

At least other patrons spoke up for those two peaceful young men;).
I stand by my original post.

Black Loiterers, White Lingerers, and Starbucks Coffee
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-loiterers-white-lingerers-and-starbucks-coffee/ar-AAwhmah
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaplan-starbucks-20180424-story.html
 
Last edited:
I don’t get the draw of the place. Bad overpriced coffee, bad music, loud, uncomfortable furniture, bad lighting, and every ultra-cheap ass who won’t pay for cellular data is sitting inside staring at a device and looks like you spooked all of them when you walked in.

I see people say they’re working there or studying there so I tried it ONCE during my CFI study and walked back out and sat in the Yukon with my overpriced coffee and was a hell of a lot more comfortable, better background music, my own climate controls if I wanted them, bag full of reference books in the back seat... etc. My vehicle is a better place to study than any SucksBucks.
 
redtail said:
http://fortune.com/2018/04/22/starbucks-vague-policies-nonpaying-customers/
"The Wall Street Journal interviewed an array of current and former Starbucks staff and managers, who said their training didn’t address the question, and were unaware of a written policy on non-paying customers. Instead, such judgments are generally left to store managers or individual store policies."

SO..... IMO
1. The manager was within her rights to question them and tell them that the facility is for paying customers, IF AND ONLY IF they appeared to be up to no good..,
(i.e. suspicious activity, drug dealing or some other criminal behavior).

However, there were no indication of such, nor did she state such suspicious activity to the police. SO she was wrong to call the police on them! Two peaceful young men sitting there for a few minutes. Racial bias or not, that was uncalled for....PERIOD.

2. The police should have inquired as to the reasons she wanted to expel the young men in the first place. Were they causing a disturbance? Loud? Refusing to pay for service? The police failed.....PERIOD.

3. The police ARE the authority. So the moment they instructed the young men to leave, they should have got their asses up and left!......PERIOD. They themselves are responsible for escalating the situation to the level of getting arrested. This whole mess was stupid and totally unnecessary, especially when we still have so many 'REAL' injustices to rectify in society.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
I don't know if that situation was racism or not...but just because someone claims it is racism, doesn't MAKE it racism. It could be, for sure...but I have yet to see anything other than a claim...(and these days, I've seen many, many, "claims" fall flat when someone asks for more than their claim...)
 
In before the lock:D

This could get as wild as the SWA Fan blade thread.:cool:

Cheers
 
Some people have made careers out of worrying about diversity and equality. The problem with this of course, is that if it is ever accomplished, those people have no career, so they make sure to keep wailing about it and keeping it an issue.
 
So suddenly I have morbid curiosity how a thread titled "Tammie Jo Schults" morphed into bigotry at Starbucks in just 4 pages. That has to be some kind of record, doesn't it?
 
steingar said:
While I agree in full, I doubt opportunity is equal between men and women. I believe social constructs are still in place telling girls they can’t.
Click to expand...

Maybe out in the boonies, but otherwise not to the extent that the lefties are preaching daily. Plus, there are social constructs telling men they can't do things too.

We have three girls. They only feel limited by their physical size/strength; i.e. they ain't ever playing in the NFL or NBA, but then neither am I. I would say the majority of their high school female classmates feel the same. Some of their college classmates from more rural areas may have that issue.

Our daughters feel no compunction to "need a man" or limited because they are female. Heck, I think they are in great shape, timing-wise, to take advantage of the current mode of gender discrimination in the office hiring; women over men.

Our middle daughter is studying equine science and management and working in the horse industry. She's typically the only female or Caucasian working in the barn. She's surprised a few Hispanic men and most of her classmates with her fluency in Spanish. Doesn't phase her in the least that she's the only pasty-white girl there other than the owners.

All three have traveled internationally without us in their college years and even in middle/high school; two youngest are still in college. The don't feel scared to hop on a plane and travel to somewhere they've never been. I have female co-workers that won't take the stairs in the parking deck out of fear (some one might be hiding/waiting in there); and yet the door on the ground floor is locked on the outside, slowing the homeless from getting in the stairs. I, on the other hand, take the stairs as it's good exercise and wish the door at the ground wasn't locked so I could take them back up again at the end of the day.
 
wayne said:
Maybe out in the boonies, but otherwise not to the extent that the lefties are preaching daily. Plus, there are social constructs telling men they can't do things too.

We have three girls. They only feel limited by their physical size/strength; i.e. they ain't ever playing in the NFL or NBA, but then neither am I. I would say the majority of their high school female classmates feel the same. Some of their college classmates from more rural areas may have that issue.
Click to expand...
And because your daughters appear this way it must be the same for everyone. and because you don' see anything nothing can be there. If you can't see the logical fallacy in this I"m done here.
 
tawood said:
How so? I think both are becoming rare, but hey, what do I know...
Click to expand...
I used to think they were both becoming rare too. But somewhere along the line,during the past decade or so, I saw things start to change. Gender discrimination continued to fade out (it's not gone yet, but "rare"). Racial discrimination however, seemed to begin to revive itself, like a snake that won't die. I have opinions on why this happened, but I will refrain from going there. Suffice to say I feel we have been moving sideways, with a few steps forward and a bunch of steps backwards. But I do still see racism declining in our younger generations, and that is a good thing.
 
JOhnH said:
I used to think they were both becoming rare too. But somewhere along the line,during the past decade or so, I saw things start to change. Gender discrimination continued to fade out (it's not gone yet, but "rare"). Racial discrimination however, seemed to begin to revive itself, like a snake that won't die. I have opinions on why this happened, but I will refrain from going there. Suffice to say I feel we have been moving sideways, with a few steps forward and a bunch of steps backwards. But I do still see racism declining in our younger generations, and that is a good thing.
Click to expand...
There are people who say, "perception is reality"...but I would disagree with this notion.
I think people frequently perceive racism, but whether racism is truly going on I think is not usually the case. But, admittedly, that's just my opinion.
 
tawood said:
There are people who say, "perception is reality"...but I would disagree with this notion.
Click to expand...
You may be on to something there, but I have to politely disagree with you regarding "perception is reality". I think perception is a huge part of reality for many, especially in cases where attitudes and opinions are concerned.
tawood said:
I think people frequently perceive racism, but whether racism is truly going on I think is not usually the case. But, admittedly, that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...
And IMNSHO, your opinion is valid. But that perception of racism seems to be the catalyst that is reviving actual racism. The question is, how do we change the perception.
 
wow...OP has 2 total posts. 1 question, 1 attack...and then the population does 4 pages of ??????? Love this board...I really, really do...
 
It might help if the focus remained on ensuring equality, rather than retribution. It is, of course, a pipe dream.
 
Everskyward said:
It will be nice when people don't make a big deal about a pilot being female...
Click to expand...

I've always been a big Jimmy Smits fan. I'd never thought much about it until I read an interview 20 years ago or so where he said he was looking forward to the day when people didn't congratulate him for being a good latino actor, but rather just a good actor. I think the same applies here.
 
steingar said:
And because your daughters appear this way it must be the same for everyone. and because you don' see anything nothing can be there. If you can't see the logical fallacy in this I"m done here.
Click to expand...

LOL

And their friends/classmates; apparently you didn't read that far. :rolleyes:

I would say it's rare for me to have heard any of their friends that think "can't because they are female" other than due to their size/upper body strength. They feel perfectly capable of tackling anything. And they should. Girls get higher grades in school than boys and the majority of college attendees are women. Why shouldn't they feel capable?
 
steingar said:
And because your daughters appear this way it must be the same for everyone. and because you don' see anything nothing can be there. If you can't see the logical fallacy in this I"m done here.
Click to expand...

Or your bias is showing. You never did cite those “many studies” you claimed were the basis of your thoughts. And I was serious about wanting to read them.
 
denverpilot said:
Or your bias is showing. You never did cite those “many studies” you claimed were the basis of your thoughts. And I was serious about wanting to read them.
Click to expand...
Same here. I called him out on those "many studies" which I would have liked to read, but apparently, he missed that.

Things are different than when I was young. Today, the only thing stopping girls/women from doing anything, is physical strength, or personal preference. A lot of females just don't care to be plumbers or electricians or even airline pilots.
 
JOhnH said:
Things are different than when I was young. Today, the only thing stopping girls/women from doing anything, is physical strength, or personal preference. A lot of females just don't care to be plumbers or electricians or even airline pilots.
Click to expand...

John, we've disagreed enough that you know not to take it personally any time I offer a differing opinion.

It is indeed a different world. And it's better in that area and getting better all the time. But I still think there's some bias out there. I was watching 60 Minutes last week for the airline episode, but hung around and caught the one on gender equality in the workplace/SalesForce. I'm not sure that I buy into the story 100%, but it did raise some good issues.

A girl I went to high school with is an OTR truck driver. I read a yahoo article the other day by a female OTR driver about the challenges she faces. She said she gets an occasional negative comment, but for the most part other truckers are friendly. She's careful to not walk between rigs, not to flirt..but at the same time use humor to diffuse difficult situations, and be forward when putting sexualized comments to rest. Those are problem they shouldn't have to face, and to be honest I don't think we'll get to a time when those problems don't exist.

Still, there's been a lot of progress in the last 50 years and I think we'll see a lot more.
 
Gerhardt said:
John, we've disagreed enough that you know not to take it personally any time I offer a differing opinion.

It is indeed a different world. And it's better in that area and getting better all the time. But I still think there's some bias out there. I was watching 60 Minutes last week for the airline episode, but hung around and caught the one on gender equality in the workplace/SalesForce. I'm not sure that I buy into the story 100%, but it did raise some good issues.

A girl I went to high school with is an OTR truck driver. I read a yahoo article the other day by a female OTR driver about the challenges she faces. She said she gets an occasional negative comment, but for the most part other truckers are friendly. She's careful to not walk between rigs, not to flirt..but at the same time use humor to diffuse difficult situations, and be forward when putting sexualized comments to rest. Those are problem they shouldn't have to face, and to be honest I don't think we'll get to a time when those problems don't exist.

Still, there's been a lot of progress in the last 50 years and I think we'll see a lot more.
Click to expand...
What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that those are problems that everyone faces, even though they shouldn't. Everyone is occasionally put into uncomfortable situations. I'm a little guy, have had to face many situations I shouldn't have had to, and so has everyone else, for one reason or another. It doesn't make it right that they happen, but pretending like it only happens to women or black people is ignoring reality.
 
redtail said:
3. The police ARE the authority. So the moment they instructed the young men to leave, they should have got their asses up and left!......PERIOD. They themselves are responsible for escalating the situation to the level of getting arrested. This whole mess was stupid and totally unnecessary, especially when we still have so many 'REAL' injustices to rectify in society.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think this is the main reason for these situations. They want to confront and escalate the situation intentionally.
 
Salty said:
What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that those are problems that everyone faces, even though they shouldn't. Everyone is occasionally put into uncomfortable situations. I'm a little guy, have had to face many situations I shouldn't have had to, and so has everyone else, for one reason or another. It doesn't make it right that they happen, but pretending like it only happens to women or black people is ignoring reality.
Click to expand...
This. I have heard young male pilots get comments about looking like they are still in high school, so how can they be pilots.
 
Everskyward said:
This. I have heard young male pilots get comments about looking like they are still in high school, so how can they be pilots.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but a lot of young pilots I see DO look too young to be pilots.

And I hate to sound like Henning, but back when I was an over-the-road truck driver, I would not walk between rigs alone on a dark night if I didn't have to. But the worst harassment I received was from the truck-stop whores. They were aggressive and belligerent.
 
I just want to read the articles / studies since I know if there’s something the girls are doing to fly better, because that thing CAN be taught to the boys. Equality and all that.

One specific thing that I already know about is freaking trimming the aircraft instead of fighting it. Letting the aircraft do the work always results in smoother flying. Males have a tendency to over-control the aircraft, especially with a yoke. Leaving the aircraft alone to do its thing is easier when the user interface doesn’t look like a steering wheel.

I think the children of the 60s are showing the tendency to regress at their current age and are thinking these fights of their younger years are still going on, when in reality they’re mostly over with. Normal aging behavior.

And by “mostly” I mean the “80% rule” of life where most solutions humans come up with meet 80% of the need and the effort and cost to get to 90%-100% grows exponentially and usually isn’t worth it. I’d say the gender/employment issues are mostly limited to specific job roles and the “success rate” is well above 80% these days. Most people can do or be whatever they want to do or be without significant gender barriers these days. Certainly the kids being born now, can.
 
mscard88 said:
I think this is the main reason for these situations. They want to confront and escalate the situation intentionally.
Click to expand...
Which is why I gave them an "F" grade for that as well, although I saw nothing wrong with anything else in their behavior. Nor did any of the white patrons who spoke up on their behalf. They carried themselves in a respectable manner, as witnessed by everyone in the store.

See, I don't "pretend" that discrimination ONLY happens to blacks and women, nor do I bury my head in the sand and pretend that situations like this have nothing to do with discrimination and racial bias (conscious or subconscious).
As much as I love Dr. MLK jr, I am a child of The Hon. Elijah Muhammad (named after him in fact and born in the same month..October), I don't believe in "sit-ins", "protest" or any of that nonsense to force myself to be accepted in white establishments, or anywhere else I am not wanted as a black man! If the cops tell me to get going, I'll take my business elsewhere!!!

Separation of the races.
The Hon. Elijah Muhammad -1963
"The problem of America, it is her slave"
The best and only true solution to the 400 year old problem!
 
Last edited:
Salty said:
It doesn't make it right that they happen, but pretending like it only happens to women or black people is ignoring reality.
Click to expand...
I’m not saying it only happens to women and black people. But I think they get crapped on slightly more often than you and I do. Maybe not a lot, but by a measurable amount.
 
denverpilot said:
I just want to read the articles / studies since I know if there’s something the girls are doing to fly better, because that thing CAN be taught to the boys. Equality and all that.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the studies say “If you find it somewhere, it must be everywhere and must be fixed.”

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
I wonder if the studies say “If you find it somewhere, it must be everywhere and must be fixed.”
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're getting at, but I'm just looking for solid scientific work done (that the Professor claims to have seen, but nobody else here has, amongst a number of aviation enthusiasts and professionals) that says there's a female behavior that makes a better pilot than a male.

Any behavior can be taught... or un-taught as the case may be... so as an instructor, I want to read the "numerous studies" @steingar claims exist so I can watch for the bad behavior amongst the male students and correct it.

I suspect a distinct lack of said studies and an even larger lack of properly peer-reviewed ones, which is disappointing, when a flat statement of their existence came from a professional educator and proponent of STEM.
 
denverpilot said:
Not sure what you're getting at, but I'm just looking for solid scientific work done (that the Professor claims to have seen, but nobody else here has, amongst a number of aviation enthusiasts and professionals) that says there's a female behavior that makes a better pilot than a male.
Click to expand...

steingar said:
And because your daughters appear this way it must be the same for everyone. and because you don' see anything nothing can be there. If you can't see the logical fallacy in this I"m done here.
Click to expand...

Just wondering since the Professor made an observation about the prevalence of a phenomenon in Post 129, do the yet to be identified “ many studies” conclude because some females make better pilots than males, all females will make better pilots than males. If they do, that’s sort of impossible since one can’t study every possible pilot. In a like manner then, if empowerment is lacking somewhere, it must exist everywhere and must be fixed.

Cheers
 
SkyDog58 said:
The Starbucks event was weird. Weird in that the company CEO bent over into a contorted mess to be apologetic to those guys. I don’t get it.

I never go into a business and use their facilities or sit around without buying anything. Heck, even when I stop at a gas station just to take a leak, I always buy something on my way out even if it is just a drink or a pack of gum. If I were to go into a business and just park my fat ass without buying anything, I’d expect to be asked to leave or to buy something. And if I refused, I would not be surprised to see the cops show up. The store and the cops did what they should have.
Click to expand...
Same here, but sometimes I've bought the coffee or whatever when my colleagues arrived, not immediately upon my arrival. I once arrived at a Starbucks about an hour ahead of schedule since we were visiting a customer in Cedar Rapids, IA and I left NE in the early AM and didn't hit the expected traffic. When the sales rep arrived, I bought us coffee at that time. If had become crowded, I would have moved outside. Starbucks and Panera are both very convenient for people meeting prior to visiting customers and they've presented themselves to us in that fashion.

In California, traffic is random enough that one also gets to a destination early too, MA traffic is the same.

If I owned such a franchise, I'd let them stay until such time as they started interfering with my paying customers.
 
denverpilot said:
I don’t get the draw of the place. Bad overpriced coffee, bad music, loud, uncomfortable furniture, bad lighting, and every ultra-cheap ass who won’t pay for cellular data is sitting inside staring at a device and looks like you spooked all of them when you walked in.

I see people say they’re working there or studying there so I tried it ONCE during my CFI study and walked back out and sat in the Yukon with my overpriced coffee and was a hell of a lot more comfortable, better background music, my own climate controls if I wanted them, bag full of reference books in the back seat... etc. My vehicle is a better place to study than any SucksBucks.
Click to expand...
You ain't hip enough to hang at 'bucks!
 
redtail said:
Which is why I gave them an "F" grade for that as well, although I saw nothing wrong with anything else in their behavior. Nor did any of the white patrons who spoke up on their behalf. They carried themselves in a respectable manner, as witnessed by everyone in the store.

See, I don't "pretend" that discrimination ONLY happens to blacks and women, nor do I bury my head in the sand and pretend that situations like this have nothing to do with discrimination and racial bias (conscious or subconscious).
As much as I love Dr. MLK jr, I am a child of The Hon. Elijah Muhammad (named after him in fact and born in the same month..October), I don't believe in "sit-ins", "protest" or any of that nonsense to force myself to be accepted in white establishments, or anywhere else I am not wanted as a black man! If the cops tell me to get going, I'll take my business elsewhere!!!

Separation of the races.
The Hon. Elijah Muhammad -1963
"The problem of America, it is her slave"
The best and only true solution to the 400 year old problem!
Click to expand...
Take this c r a p to Pilotspin.com. We'll be happy to kick the snot out of you there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top