Talk me out of a Cherokee 160

Rich Holt said:
Skip the Cherokee and get a Grumman. Top loaders are better. You can thank me later.
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Would if I could, but it seems like most Grummans on the market are listed at a slightly higher price. There also aren't as many Grummans so that helps the price stay higher than a Cherokee.
 
Rgbeard said:
My Dad’s 140 was great for our family of three.

Dad and mom were both pretty slim and he later upgraded to a Turbo Lance due to other reasons.
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Without getting myself into trouble I'll say we are all under 200 lbs each, some more than others.
 
Rich Holt said:
Skip the Cherokee and get a Grumman. Top loaders are better. You can thank me later.
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Actually, I think this would be my list of preferred planes, in no particular order as I think they all have pros/cons:
1-Grumman Tiger /Traveler (Although I've never even sat in one)
2-Cessna 172 (plenty of time flying rentals)
3-Cherokee 160/180 (completed my PPL in a 140/160 and continue to rent the 160/180 models)
4-Beech Musketeer (flew in one I was considering, great little plane, but it didn't work out)
 
I did my PPL in a Tiger.

For XC I flight planned at 132 knots and 10.2 GPH. Typically I beat both. With the Sensensich Prop STC, there are supposedly a 140 knot plane.

My buddy was in a partnership in a Cherokee 180D. On a good day, it would do maybe 120 knots on the same fuel flow.
 
Will Kumley said:
Would if I could, but it seems like most Grummans on the market are listed at a slightly higher price. There also aren't as many Grummans so that helps the price stay higher than a Cherokee.
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That was not the case until all of the "good" C172's and PA-28's were gone. Then people remembered that the Grumman was still around. This time last year a good Traveler could be had for under $40k.
 
Pinecone said:
I did my PPL in a Tiger.

For XC I flight planned at 132 knots and 10.2 GPH. Typically I beat both. With the Sensensich Prop STC, there are supposedly a 140 knot plane.

My buddy was in a partnership in a Cherokee 180D. On a good day, it would do maybe 120 knots on the same fuel flow.
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That might depend on which 180 you were flying. I usually could cruise at 130 knots for just over 10 gph in the Archer I flew during training, but it was very well maintained, so that could have affected it's flying ability a bit!
 
SkyChaser said:
That might depend on which 180 you were flying. I usually could cruise at 130 knots for just over 10 gph in the Archer I flew during training, but it was very well maintained, so that could have affected it's flying ability a bit!
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180D is Hershey Bar wing. Archer is not. :)
 
Pinecone said:
180D is Hershey Bar wing. Archer is not. :)
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To be precise, Archer II is not. The 1974-75 Cherokee Archer had a 32' span Hershey-Bar wing.

Whether or not a fixed-gear PA-28 has the large, post-1977 wheel, brake and strut fairings can make a significant difference, too.
 
Hmmmm....

Seems as though we’re failing to talk you out of it. Let’s try this:

You’re going to regret buying that Cherokee when the wings come off, but at least you won’t regret it for very long.

There. Did that work?
 
Will:

I will offer this one observation to you. It's an observation of incredible disparity. I'm probably not the only one thinking this, maybe just the only one to say it.

In your avatar, assuming it's you, you're astride the best Honda touring motorcycle. Arguably best-in-class for the purpose. Smooth, powerful, and hauls more than most. I should know. I've owned nearly seventy of them myself.

When it comes to aviation, you're scraping the barrel's bottom trying to find the absolute smallest investment, fully mindful that you're sacrificing nearly all the attributes that most grow to value: speed, payload, interior room, safe higher-elevation operations, and, although it hasn't been detailed, a decent panel from a post-Clinton-administration timeframe.

I'm quite proudly a contributor to the delinquency of grown-ups. I've talked more than one person into making aviation decisions in all sorts of ways. But as much as I want to see you spend your money and post about your newfound love, and newfound heartaches that come with this love, I do believe you're being incredibly short-sighted and, making a mistake.

The dude on the Goldwing doesn't want to be asking his wife: "Honey, do you really have to pack THAT much for this trip?", (referring to both hairbrushes) when it comes to taking the airplane on a trip.

I think it's possible that you (and maybe your spouse?) are having a disconnect on the true cost of a decent GA aircraft in today's dollars that'll allow you to enjoy the skies with a decent payload, agreeable speed, margin of safety, and with modern navigation. I'm recommending you take a step back and reassess your budget and make changes.
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I think it's a myth. Heard from several people they've "seen" it but I never have first hand.When I was considering options to extend the space in mine, nobody could help with the baggage door or third window option, only with the hat rack which I ended up going with.
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I saw one! Maybe the only one. My Dad had a friend that was a DER. He installed a baggage door on his 140...
 
Todd82 said:
With what seems to be several Cherokee aficionados here... What's the deal with the mythical Cherokee 140 baggage door add on? It's like Big Foot. Some have seen it but there's no proof I've ever found that it (still) exists.
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I never saw the bag add-on myself. Though I did come across a Cherokee 140 converted to 180 hp which claimed to have paperwork authorizing a max weight increase from 2,150 to 2,300 lbs (like the Cherokee 180). The Seller had some but not all paperwork substantiating the weight limit change so I passed.
 
Rgbeard said:
Will:

I will offer this one observation to you. It's an observation of incredible disparity. I'm probably not the only one thinking this, maybe just the only one to say it.

In your avatar, assuming it's you, you're astride the best Honda touring motorcycle. Arguably best-in-class for the purpose. Smooth, powerful, and hauls more than most. I should know. I've owned nearly seventy of them myself.

When it comes to aviation, you're scraping the barrel's bottom trying to find the absolute smallest investment, fully mindful that you're sacrificing nearly all the attributes that most grow to value: speed, payload, interior room, safe higher-elevation operations, and, although it hasn't been detailed, a decent panel from a post-Clinton-administration timeframe.

I'm quite proudly a contributor to the delinquency of grown-ups. I've talked more than one person into making aviation decisions in all sorts of ways. But as much as I want to see you spend your money and post about your newfound love, and newfound heartaches that come with this love, I do believe you're being incredibly short-sighted and, making a mistake.

The dude on the Goldwing doesn't want to be asking his wife: "Honey, do you really have to pack THAT much for this trip?", (referring to both hairbrushes) when it comes to taking the airplane on a trip.

I think it's possible that you (and maybe your spouse?) are having a disconnect on the true cost of a decent GA aircraft in today's dollars that'll allow you to enjoy the skies with a decent payload, agreeable speed, margin of safety, and with modern navigation. I'm recommending you take a step back and reassess your budget and make changes.
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Now that is quite possibly an effective way to talk me out of it. Yes, that's me on my Goldwing. Yes, she can pack a "few" things. So few that she now has her own bike, a Can Am Spyder with even more luggage capacity. You bring up more than a few valid points and part of me would like to believe if the plane is the right one we would use it for weekend or overnight trips. Those trips would likely be her and I but a Cherokee 160 and possibly 180 would definitely limit the options if we wanted everyone to go as everyone would need more than a thimble of luggage.
 
My cherokee 180 has a 1000 load. Subtract 300# for fuel, that leaves 700# for people, gear, etc at 120-130 mph. More than enough for 2 people and all the gear they need/want.

Piper is still in business, new & reman parts are everywhere, just about every A&P knows how to fix them, and the Lycoming engine is about as bullet proof as you can get. I describe mine as a flying buick - very comfy, not the fastest but will get you there in comfort, and as long as you don't do anything stupid, you'll live. Do I want faster? Doesn't everyone? But even when I'm not working full-time, I can afford it without worrying about it.
 
Will Kumley said:
Now that is quite possibly an effective way to talk me out of it. Yes, that's me on my Goldwing. Yes, she can pack a "few" things. So few that she now has her own bike, a Can Am Spyder with even more luggage capacity. You bring up more than a few valid points and part of me would like to believe if the plane is the right one we would use it for weekend or overnight trips. Those trips would likely be her and I but a Cherokee 160 and possibly 180 would definitely limit the options if we wanted everyone to go as everyone would need more than a thimble of luggage.
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If "everyone" means anything more than you, your wife and maybe a small child, then the Cherokee is not the plane you want. If "everyone" means just you and your wife, you'll have plenty of useful load and won't have to ask your wife "honey, do you really need all that stuff"? if all you do is going on a weekend or even week-long trip. I mean, I don't know how much you and your wife weight but in my case, I never had an issue with weight or space on the Cherokee, even on our two week trip down to Arkansas (1,000+ mile long trip). We're planning another very long trip this fall and my wife was wondering if we can bring our large hard shell luggage along, in addition to the two large travel bags. I test packed the plane last weekend and once again, it's no problem. Fits all in. If all bags are filled up to the brim, I will have to leave about 10 gallons of fuel behind but honestly, my legs rarely go over three hours in the first place. Either me, my wife or the dog will have to pee. The key is to treat the Cherokee as a two seater, if using for travel. I took the backseats out so for me, it really is a two seater and a very capable one. But, I said it on another thread, we're one human or fur baby away from having to upgrade, but until then, the plane is perfect for us.
 
Pilawt said:
To be precise, Archer II is not. The 1974-75 Cherokee Archer had a 32' span Hershey-Bar wing.

Whether or not a fixed-gear PA-28 has the large, post-1977 wheel, brake and strut fairings can make a significant difference, too.
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Aaah, yes. Thanks for reminding me.
 
Will Kumley said:
Now that is quite possibly an effective way to talk me out of it. Yes, that's me on my Goldwing. Yes, she can pack a "few" things. So few that she now has her own bike, a Can Am Spyder with even more luggage capacity. You bring up more than a few valid points and part of me would like to believe if the plane is the right one we would use it for weekend or overnight trips. Those trips would likely be her and I but a Cherokee 160 and possibly 180 would definitely limit the options if we wanted everyone to go as everyone would need more than a thimble of luggage.
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This is us coming home from a weekend in Sonoma. Yes, we pack as if we're moving there.

Not trying for one-upsmanship - that's not the point. But the point is, a lot of people want to pack more than just a t-shirt and undies. And may want to bring home a case or three of wine, or whatever is being sold where they're going.

And - you say you're "Pacific Southwest" - that kinda means SoCal - but you're intentionally vague, which is fine. Let me guess you're from somewhere in Planet SoCal. Do you want to visit SFO or Napa or Portland? If so, you'll want some altitude. Reno? Vegas? Again, you'll want a little more speed and a little more access to higher altitudes than a Cherokee 140 gives. Happy doing a burger run to one of San Diego's airports? Well maybe not so much in that case.

I know. A 140 will make it to 10,000. My dad had his there with me on board more than once, when I was a kid. But it's not easy-peasy after 7k.

Get something that'll be a traveling machine and have you two truly satisfied. Be the king of the skies, the same as you're both Road Royalty on your best-of-breed machines.

Archer, Arrow, PA-28-235, Bonanza, Cessna 182 - people save up for and buy these types of planes for reasons.

IMG_1595.jpg
 
:yeahthat: doesn't fit in a Cherokee 140. I personally wouldn't need or want that much stuff when going on trips. I'll be the one who will have to haul it into the plane, out of the plane, into the taxi, out of the taxi, into the hotel, out of the hotel, etc. No way in hell lol...

But, some good points are:

Rgbeard said:
Do you want to visit SFO or Napa or Portland? If so, you'll want some altitude. Reno? Vegas? Again, you'll want a little more speed and a little more access to higher altitudes than a Cherokee 140 gives.
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That is true. My comments about the Cherokee apply to flying east of the rockies. I don't think I would take the plane anywhere near the mountains, especially not in the summer and anywhere near gross weight.

Rgbeard said:
I know. A 140 will make it to 10,000.
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I can 100% confirm that. I had her up to 10k ft once and it took a loooooong time to get there. 8.5k is usually my limit for altitude. It can go higher, but it's very lazy from there on upwards.
 
Rgbeard said:
This is us coming home from a weekend in Sonoma. Yes, we pack as if we're moving there.

Not trying for one-upsmanship - that's not the point. But the point is, a lot of people want to pack more than just a t-shirt and undies. And may want to bring home a case or three of wine, or whatever is being sold where they're going.

And - you say you're "Pacific Southwest" - that kinda means SoCal - but you're intentionally vague, which is fine. Let me guess you're from somewhere in Planet SoCal. Do you want to visit SFO or Napa or Portland? If so, you'll want some altitude. Reno? Vegas? Again, you'll want a little more speed and a little more access to higher altitudes than a Cherokee 140 gives. Happy doing a burger run to one of San Diego's airports? Well maybe not so much in that case.

I know. A 140 will make it to 10,000. My dad had his there with me on board more than once, when I was a kid. But it's not easy-peasy after 7k.

Get something that'll be a traveling machine and have you two truly satisfied. Be the king of the skies, the same as you're both Road Royalty on your best-of-breed machines.

Archer, Arrow, PA-28-235, Bonanza, Cessna 182 - people save up for and buy these types of planes for reasons.

View attachment 108639
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Holy crapload of stuff batman!!!

We actually pack pretty light when we travel. Before she had her own bike friends were always amazed that we could pack for a multi-week trip and fit everything in the saddlebags/trunk of the Goldwing. We did have a bag on top of the trunk as well but it only held her purse and some rain gear so it was easier to get to when we stopped.

I am starting to think the Cherokee 160 might not be ideal for me with all of the comments in this thread. Stupid question, I've heard good things about the powerflow exhaust- worst case scenario if I get a 160, if I add the powerflow exhaust what kind of performance gains could I expect? Or is it really just snake oil that owners praise as they want to justify the expense?

Oh, and SoCal for me is the Point Mugu area just outside of LA. As I'm flying rentals currently my trips are more limited by time than aircraft capabilities. I learned to fly in Bremerton Washington and routinely flew a Cherokee 140 with 160 conversion around the mountains. Think my highest altitude was either 7500 or 8500, not sure what I'd get to down here if we actually owned a plane.
 
Will Kumley said:
I am starting to think the Cherokee 160 might not be ideal for me with all of the comments in this thread. Stupid question, I've heard good things about the powerflow exhaust- worst case scenario if I get a 160, if I add the powerflow exhaust what kind of performance gains could I expect? Or is it really just snake oil that owners praise as they want to justify the expense?
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@Pilawt had a powerflow on his 180hp converted C172. It made a little difference IIRC, but it certainly isn't any magic potion.


Edit to clarify. The 180hp conversion made that thing a climbing beast. The Powerflo in and of itself, I don’t think did a bunch. @Timbeck2 for an opinion?
 
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Will Kumley said:
Oh, and SoCal for me is the Point Mugu area just outside of LA. As I'm flying rentals currently my trips are more limited by time than aircraft capabilities. I learned to fly in Bremerton Washington and routinely flew a Cherokee 140 with 160 conversion around the mountains. Think my highest altitude was either 7500 or 8500, not sure what I'd get to down here if we actually owned a plane.
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So from the North borders of Planet SoCal. Common trips are:

Napa
Reno
Sedona
Las Vegas
San Diego
Phoenix

As an airplane owner, you'll actually DO these trips, versus what you do as a renter - (go not too far so you can turn around and come back).

A lot of these trips involve some "up and over" time. 9,500, 10,500 and 11,500 VFR are more commonly required to get away from the land where the desert meets the sea.
 
Half Fast said:
What's your budget?
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Under 100K, as Rgbeard pointed out. Seems like I'm doing a lot of bottom scraping with minimal budget. The only positive thing that has come out of the actual plane search is my wife is more of a realist. When this conversation started she wanted something like a Cessna 210, Cherokee six, or anything else in that category. Thankfully I think reality has set in on not just our budget but also on what we would use the plane for. Now that both kids are home for now but have jobs her ideas of grown kids going on weekend trips with us isn't looking good. But again, it brings us back to reality on what we would actually use the plane for.
 
My wife and I did lots of sport-touring on motorcycles as well. Yes we learned to pack lightly.

But when we have the plane, we take nice trips and appreciate not needing to choose between three t-shirts or four.

We go further, faster, and with more capacity. In our view, if we didn’t then why do we have the plane?

What’s a decent 182 or Dakota go for in today’s market? As from my first post, people buy these planes for reasons.
 
Rgbeard said:
My wife and I did lots of sport-touring on motorcycles as well. Yes we learned to pack lightly.

But when we have the plane, we take nice trips and appreciate not needing to choose between three t-shirts or four.

We go further, faster, and with more capacity. In our view, if we didn’t then why do we have the plane?

What’s a decent 182 or Dakota go for in today’s market? As from my first post, people buy these planes for reasons.
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Sadly, in todays market those two options- while ideal for what we really want to do- is just too far north of our budget. At least, when we look at the asking prices on various sites. Now, what are they actually selling for, who knows! And in most cases, it seems like the asking price is well north of Vref which is what most banks use to determine if they'll even provide a loan. It may be a while before something finally works out that we will be comfortable with meeting our mission and the bank will be comfortable with the price. I figure if the banks are saying its overpriced and we should walk away thats probably a smart call.
 
First - Rgbeard - wow. I think I moved less when I moved into my first apartment.

Good observation on the Goldwing pick up. I've flown 172's, 182's, and Tigers on X country (around 2 hours) with the wife. If that is what you have in mind (with your wife, not mine) then my observations:
A 172 will do it, but slow and tiring
A 182 did great
A tiger was a "never again" from the wife. Too bumpy. And it needs a good amount of runway, especially on a hot day.

I think a Cherokee 160 would be like the Skyhawk - it could work, but on a hot day would climb slowly and not get much ground covered for the time spent in the air. (The 180 HP Skyhawk doesn't go faster, but you don't have to worry about load and climbing. Full fuel, four people, and luggage is possible).

In today's environment, and no I can't predict, I wouldn't be in a hurry. Rent several types - including a Cherokee 160 if you can - and see how it works out.
 
Will Kumley said:
Under 100K, as Rgbeard pointed out. Seems like I'm doing a lot of bottom scraping with minimal budget. The only positive thing that has come out of the actual plane search is my wife is more of a realist. When this conversation started she wanted something like a Cessna 210, Cherokee six, or anything else in that category. Thankfully I think reality has set in on not just our budget but also on what we would use the plane for. Now that both kids are home for now but have jobs her ideas of grown kids going on weekend trips with us isn't looking good. But again, it brings us back to reality on what we would actually use the plane for.
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So what’s wrong with something like this?
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2406628&s-type=aircraft

Or this?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2407444&s-type=aircraft

Or this?
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2407717&s-type=aircraft
 
Half Fast said:
So what’s wrong with something like this?
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2406628&s-type=aircraft

Or this?

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2407444&s-type=aircraft

Or this?
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...DOWNER+180&listing_id=2407717&s-type=aircraft
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Other than being priced higher than Vref those cold work. If the buyer, bank, and I can't come to an agreement on the price that everyone agrees to then its another failed attempt.

The first plane we put an offer on to buy was a Musketeer that looked clean with a couple minor concerns. The bank used Vref to estimate value though and said the plane was way overpriced.
 
Vref is little more than a WAG. Perhaps you need to find a lender that knows a bit more about the airplane market.
 
Who are you looking at for lending?
 
Having just purchased, I had excellent service and dealings with Dorr Aviation for financing. Very responsive, got a good rate, and approval for more than I wanted to spend (but I managed to spend it :D ).

Lots of choices under $100K. You don't have to stick with P/C.

But for owning, I would want at least 180 HP for the capacity and hot/high operations. Otherwise you may find yourself limited at times.

Trade A Plane has an advanced search where you can search by price range. Right now, 577 listings under $100K. Many are not appropriate, but some interesting ones.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/filte...r+Sale&price-max=100000&user_distance=1000000

A quick look shows a few 182s. A Cherokee 235. Even a Commander 112TC. A number of early Mooneys.
 
Half Fast said:
Vref is little more than a WAG. Perhaps you need to find a lender that knows a bit more about the airplane market.
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I don’t disagree with that statement but I’ve discovered most banks use it as a primary tool when determining value.
 
Pinecone said:
Having just purchased, I had excellent service and dealings with Dorr Aviation for financing. Very responsive, got a good rate, and approval for more than I wanted to spend (but I managed to spend it :D ).

Lots of choices under $100K. You don't have to stick with P/C.

But for owning, I would want at least 180 HP for the capacity and hot/high operations. Otherwise you may find yourself limited at times.

Trade A Plane has an advanced search where you can search by price range. Right now, 577 listings under $100K. Many are not appropriate, but some interesting ones.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/filte...r+Sale&price-max=100000&user_distance=1000000

A quick look shows a few 182s. A Cherokee 235. Even a Commander 112TC. A number of early Mooneys.
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Actually talking to Dorr now. Almost started the paperwork with them on the first Musketeer deal that fell through but opted to stop the deal when three other banks said it was overpriced. One, maybe two banks- I can try to justify it as a cautious lender. Three plus two appraisers that gave me a verbal before taking my money and it just wasn’t going to work.
 
My suggestion is go ahead with the application. They can get you approved for a certain maximum amount, and then they will fine tune when you identify the actual airplane.

Having the financing in hand is a BIG help. I got my plane because I was ready to close ASAP. I was less than 2 weeks from offer to closing, with a pre-buy. The broker actually got a full price offer after I started talking, so he honored by first right. And the owner accepted a slightly lower offer for the quick sale.
 
Pinecone said:
My suggestion is go ahead with the application. They can get you approved for a certain maximum amount, and then they will fine tune when you identify the actual airplane.

Having the financing in hand is a BIG help. I got my plane because I was ready to close ASAP. I was less than 2 weeks from offer to closing, with a pre-buy. The broker actually got a full price offer after I started talking, so he honored by first right. And the owner accepted a slightly lower offer for the quick sale.
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Still waiting to hear back from Dorr but got an email today from the rental I took up over the weekend. I flew for 2.7 hours and estimate that I paid 45% what I would expect to pay monthly in fixed costs if I bought a plane in the budget I'm looking at. That includes loan, tie down, insurance, and money set aside for annual. It doesn't include fuel, oil, or the money I'd likely add to the account for unknown maintenance, but this is just another reason I'm really hoping financing can get secured and I can get my own plane. The plane I rented over the weekend was a 172 with standard 6 pack and a non Waas Garmin 430.
 
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