Take flight lessons although medical was denied

D

dee_jee

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
8
Display Name
Display name:
dee_jee
Flight training without a medical...

Hi all,

just two hypothetical questions:

1. Is it possible to start flight training (Private Pilot) with a CFI, once a medical (3rd-class) has been denied? No solo flights of course.

2. If the answer to #1 is yes: is it even possible to complete flight training (including the check ride) and get a license with the constraint of flying with a safety pilot only, after a medical has been denied?

Thank you!

dee_jee
 
Last edited:
dee_jee said:
Hi all,

just two hypothetical questions:

1. Is it possible to start flight training (Private Pilot) with a CFI, once a medical (3rd-class) has been denied? No solo flights of course.

2. If the answer to #1 is yes: is it even possible to complete flight training (including the check ride) and get a license with the constraint of flying with a safety pilot only, after a medical has been denied?

Thank you!

dee_jee
Click to expand...

#1: Yes. You take whatever training with a CFI you're willing to pay for, even without a medical.

#2: Not in an airplane, no. Glider or balloon do not require medicals. However, for airplane, there is a minimum of 10 hours of solo flight that absolutely cannot be completed without a medical, not to mention the checkride itself requires a valid medical.

If you had not been denied (ie. you'd never applied for a medical), you'd have the Light Sport option, but that went away with the denial.
 
Welcome .
Yes to #1 . You can get any kind of training you like ...
No to #2 . Sorry
Maybe there is something you can do about your medical !
Good luck
 
Has the medical already been denied or are you just planning to roll the dice and wondering what happens if (which is a really bad idea)?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Has the medical already been denied or are you just planning to roll the dice and wondering what happens if (which is a really bad idea)?
Click to expand...

It's not about me. I was just wondering if one can get a license that allows him to fly with a safety pilot only (due to medical reasons).
 
You can still become a rated glider pilot provided you can self certify. As a certificated glider pilot, you can fly motorgliders that have much the same cross country performance as light airplanes with two seats.
 
dee_jee said:
It's not about me. I was just wondering if one can get a license that allows him to fly with a safety pilot only (due to medical reasons).
Click to expand...

Yes. In this case the safety pilot is called a CFI - Certified Flight Instructor. And no license required, except perhaps a Student Pilot certificate.

-Skip
 
dee_jee said:
It's not about me. I was just wondering if one can get a license that allows him to fly with a safety pilot only (due to medical reasons).
Click to expand...

No, no license, but no reason he cannot fly with an agreeable safety pilot acting as PIC, I let unlicensed people fly.
 
Skip Miller said:
Yes. In this case the safety pilot is called a CFI - Certified Flight Instructor. And no license required, except perhaps a Student Pilot certificate.

-Skip
Click to expand...

No CFI required to go flying, just to sign off training required in furtherance of a rating.
 
There's no legal reason why he can't fly the plane with another rated pilot present to act as PIC, even if the rated pilot isn't a CFI. It might be a bad idea safety-wise, but that would depend on the skill level of the non-pilot and the skill and comfort level of the pilot in that situation (being PIC from the right seat). There might also be insurance considerations, and if it's a rental plane, the FBO might not (and usually wouldn't) allow it. If the PIC owns the plane though, the regs don't specifically prohibit this.

The flying passenger couldn't log the time though, unless the PIC was a CFI giving training.
 
dee_jee said:
It's not about me. I was just wondering if one can get a license that allows him to fly with a safety pilot only (due to medical reasons).
Click to expand...
Yes, but only under truly extraordinary circumstances. For example, there's one deaf pilot with an instrument rating, and his certificate requires a second pilot who can hear and communicate ATC instructions to him via ASL (or whatever it is he uses) and relay responses verbally on the radio. However, that's the only case I know of where that's allowed.

As far as taking the training and the ride if you can't pass a medical, it's possible, but again, only under special circumstances. One situation where I've heard of this would be loss (or loss of use) of a limb. The trainee is issued a medical "valid for Student Pilot purposes only", does all the training including solo, and then does a combined practical and special medical flight test with an FAA Inspector, who issues a Statement of Demonstrated Ability along with a Temporary Airman Certificate upon successful completion

However, if it's a medical problem where the FAA is worried about the pilot conking out in flight (e.g., cardiac condition, epilepsy, etc) or a mental condition (ADHD, bipolar, etc) , as opposed to just physical ability to operate the aircraft, that isn't happening. In such cases, without a medical, you can fly with an instructor all you want, but until you get a medical certificate, you can't solo and you can't take the practical test.

For more information based on your actual condition, I suggest contacting Dr. Bruce Chien either directly via his web site (http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com) or on the AOPA Forums (http://forums.aopa.org).
 
And if you are just wanting to fly for fun, look at ultralight airplanes. No certificate is required for them.
 
While the FAA can authorize the medical and practical check rides to be done at the same time, it doesn't have to be that way. As soon as the student has progressed well enough to fly the medical checkride on his own, the can do that and have the restriction removed.
 
why not go sport? all you need is a drivers license...no medical required.
 
Witmo said:
As a certificated glider pilot, you can fly motorgliders that have much the same cross country performance as light airplanes with two seats.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but man those things are expensive. Last I looked at Phoenix, it pushed $132k. Probably sells for $150k now. Also, you need a self-launch endorsement.
 
I thinks the rule about not being able to use your drivers license if you get denied a medical is absurdly stupid!!

But yes, you can fly with a CFI all you want, you can also fly with other licensed pilots. You can fly the plane.
 
flyingron said:
While the FAA can authorize the medical and practical check rides to be done at the same time, it doesn't have to be that way. As soon as the student has progressed well enough to fly the medical checkride on his own, the can do that and have the restriction removed.
Click to expand...
That is possible, if you want to take two checkrides and pay several hundred dollars for one of them, instead of just one free ride with the FAA (with whom you're going to have to fly anyway for the SMFT).
 
zaitcev said:
Yeah, but man those things are expensive. Last I looked at Phoenix, it pushed $132k. Probably sells for $150k now. Also, you need a self-launch endorsement.
Click to expand...

The Pipistrel Sinus here rents for less than the forty year old 172s. Costs even less if you join the club and rent the two place Grob to give a ride to a friend or just share a thermal with a buzzard. Of course you'd need an aerotow endorsement for that. Endorsements ain't no big thang!
 
zaitcev said:
Yeah, but man those things are expensive. Last I looked at Phoenix, it pushed $132k. Probably sells for $150k now. Also, you need a self-launch endorsement.
Click to expand...

...and a new Cessna 172 is $307,500.
 
dee_jee said:
...I was just wondering if one can get a license that allows him to fly with a safety pilot only (due to medical reasons).
Click to expand...

By the way, the FAA uses the term "safety pilot" to refer to a pilot who looks out the window while the pilot at the controls uses a vision-restricting device to practice instrument flying. If a person was able to get a license of the type you describe, what he or she would need is a pilot who was qualified to act as pilot-in-command in the aircraft being used, and without going into all the details, safety pilots may or may not be qualified to do that.

The importance of this is that the terminology used can cause confusion about who is fulfilling what role. I was once asked to be a "safety pilot" for a newly licensed pilot, and it turned out he wasn't planning on doing instrument flying practice, but just wanted another pilot with him because he didn't have confidence in his flying skills. He started out with takeoff and landing practice, and when it came time to do the first landing, he asked me to make the landing. I'm not an instructor, and at the trime, I hadn't had any training in landing from the right seat, so I declined. He landed the plane and did fine, but we discontinued the flight due to the misunderstanding about what my role was to be.
 
Doesn't this devolve down to 'what can you log?' Anyone can take any training in any plane they can find a CFI to sit in. But - what will the FAA recognize for any certification purposes?
 
docmirror said:
Doesn't this devolve down to 'what can you log?' Anyone can take any training in any plane they can find a CFI to sit in. But - what will the FAA recognize for any certification purposes?
Click to expand...
To answer this possibly rhetorical question, "Only training from an authorized instructor as defined in Title 14 of the CFR."

BTW, all that talk about gliders and balloons still presupposes that the person involved has determined that whatever caused the denial of the medical certificate "would [not] make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner." If we're talking about something like only having one working eye, that might pass muster once the CFI involved is satisfied the pilot can fly safely with monocular vision. OTOH, if it's something like uncontrolled epilepsy or active schizophrenia, the FAA might think that constituted an unacceptable condition even in aircraft not requiring a medical certificate.
 
I mean what can the student log. It presumes that the letter "C" in "CFI" means "certified".
 
Skip Miller said:
And no license required, except perhaps a Student Pilot certificate.

-Skip
Click to expand...

No student pilot certificate is required for flight training-- a student pilot certificate is issued by an AME, and merely indicates that the applicant passed a medical exam. So if you can't pass a medical, you aren't getting a student pilot certificate. The student pilot certificate is simply one of the prerequisits to soloing. But it is not a prerequisit to taking flight training with a CFI. So, you are correct that flight training can be done even if you fail the medical, or at least have not passed it yet.
 
PPC1052 said:
No student pilot certificate is required for flight training-- a student pilot certificate is issued by an AME, and merely indicates that the applicant passed a medical exam. So if you can't pass a medical, you aren't getting a student pilot certificate. The student pilot certificate is simply one of the prerequisits to soloing. But it is not a prerequisit to taking flight training with a CFI. So, you are correct that flight training can be done even if you fail the medical, or at least have not passed it yet.
Click to expand...

Actually they are separate certificates combined onto one piece of paper. You can get a Student Pilot Certificate from the FSDO with no medical attached.
 
Henning said:
Actually they are separate certificates combined onto one piece of paper. You can get a Student Pilot Certificate from the FSDO with no medical attached.
Click to expand...


Really? News to me. What's the point of getting one from the FSDO?
 
PPC1052 said:
Really? News to me. What's the point of getting one from the FSDO?
Click to expand...

Glider, baloon, light sport...folks who don't need a medical.

Just looked at my medical, it doesn't have the Student Pilot Certificate on it either.
 
JeffDG said:
Glider, baloon, light sport...folks who don't need a medical.

Just looked at my medical, it doesn't have the Student Pilot Certificate on it either.
Click to expand...

Mine either. Of course this is like the 3rd or 4th one I've had. :D
 
Henning said:
Actually they are separate certificates combined onto one piece of paper. You can get a Student Pilot Certificate from the FSDO with no medical attached.
Click to expand...

Per 61.85 "Application" I got one straight from a DPE when I started glider training - though I could have waited till I soloed.
 
JeffDG said:
#2: Not in an airplane, no. Glider or balloon do not require medicals. However, for airplane, there is a minimum of 10 hours of solo flight that absolutely cannot be completed without a medical, not to mention the checkride itself requires a valid medical.
Click to expand...

Probably not of much practical help, but I believe it is possible to get a commercial airplane certificate without spending one second of time alone in an airplane and without having a medical certificate at any point in your training. Just get a private and commercial in gliders and then do the commercial airplane rating as an add-on via Part 141. Taking that route, there is no requirement for PIC time in airplanes and no requirement for "real" solo time, because the rules allow you to have an instructor on board for the "solo" flights.

Under 61.23(a)(3)(vi), of course, you would still need the third class to actually take the practical test, though in theory, you could get the medical done the morning of the practical test and never have had a medical during any of your training.

The point is, if you think you might be able to get the medical at a later date, and you are willing to spend extra time and money on a somewhat circuitous route through training, it is possible to make progress toward your aviation goals while waiting for the medical issues to get sorted out.
 
Neil Rubin said:
Probably not of much practical help, but I believe it is possible to get a commercial airplane certificate without spending one second of time alone in an airplane and without having a medical certificate at any point in your training. Just get a private and commercial in gliders and then do the commercial airplane rating as an add-on via Part 141. Taking that route, there is no requirement for PIC time in airplanes and no requirement for "real" solo time, because the rules allow you to have an instructor on board for the "solo" flights.

Under 61.23(a)(3)(vi), of course, you would still need the third class to actually take the practical test, though in theory, you could get the medical done the morning of the practical test and never have had a medical during any of your training.

The point is, if you think you might be able to get the medical at a later date, and you are willing to spend extra time and money on a somewhat circuitous route through training, it is possible to make progress toward your aviation goals while waiting for the medical issues to get sorted out.
Click to expand...


Nope.

141 Appendix D

2. Eligibility for enrollment. A person must hold the following prior to enrolling in the flight portion of the commercial pilot certification course:
(a) At least a private pilot certificate; and
(b) If the course is for a rating in an airplane or a powered-lift category, then the person must:
(1) Hold an instrument rating in the aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category rating for which the course applies; or


So that's out because

Appendix C to Part 141—Instrument Rating Course

1. Applicability. This appendix prescribes the minimum curriculum for an instrument rating course and an additional instrument rating course, required under this part, for the following ratings:
(a) Instrument—airplane.
(b) Instrument—helicopter.
(c) Instrument—powered-lift.
2. Eligibility for enrollment. A person must hold at least a private pilot certificate with an aircraft category and class rating appropriate to the instrument rating for which the course applies prior to enrolling in the flight portion of the instrument rating course.

And under 61.


61.129(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least...
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

And getting an instrument rating under part 61 requires PIC time as well.

How is the person going to log PIC time while unrated?
 
Last edited:
EdFred said:
Nope.

141 Appendix D

2. Eligibility for enrollment. A person must hold the following prior to enrolling in the flight portion of the commercial pilot certification course:
(a) At least a private pilot certificate; and
(b) If the course is for a rating in an airplane or a powered-lift category, then the person must:
(1) Hold an instrument rating in the aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category rating for which the course applies; or


So that's out because

Appendix C to Part 141—Instrument Rating Course

1. Applicability. This appendix prescribes the minimum curriculum for an instrument rating course and an additional instrument rating course, required under this part, for the following ratings:
(a) Instrument—airplane.
(b) Instrument—helicopter.
(c) Instrument—powered-lift.
2. Eligibility for enrollment. A person must hold at least a private pilot certificate with an aircraft category and class rating appropriate to the instrument rating for which the course applies prior to enrolling in the flight portion of the instrument rating course.
Click to expand...

Part 141 Appendix D (which you quote) is what applies when you have a private certificate and are trying to do your initial commercial certificate under Part 141.

In the scenario that I proposed (private and commercial in gliders, followed by Part 141 commercial in airplanes), Part 141 Appendix I applies instead. I don't see any requirement to have, or be pursuing, an instrument rating to get a commercial airplane rating there.

EdFred said:
And under 61.


61.129(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least...
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

And getting an instrument rating under part 61 requires PIC time as well.

How is the person going to log PIC time while unrated?
Click to expand...

The Part 61 aeronautical experience requirements don't apply when you are going Part 141. See 61.71(a). This is sort of the point of Part 141.

Unless I'm missing something, you could get your commercial airplane this way without ever flying solo in an airplane, and then get your instrument airplane after logging 50 hours PIC cross country (or via the Part 141 route) without ever flying solo in an airplane. For good measure, you could keep going and get your ATP airplane, ATP helicopter, and ATP powered-lift, by way of Part 141 commercial add-ons, all without ever soloing in anything other than a glider. (You would of course need a third class medical to take all of the check rides.) Practical? Not in the slightest. But, if you had a giant wallet, an obsessive need to collect ratings, and a deathly fear of being alone in an airplane. . . .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top