Tailwheel endorsement before DC-3 type?

Kritchlow

Kritchlow

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Kritchlow
Starting to visit the idea (again) of getting a DC-3 type. I have zero tailwheel experience, and I'm unsure if I should get that done first. I have heard arguments on both sides. The nay sayers say the airplane is big and stable enough that there won't be much value in first doing it in a light airplane. That said, anything to reduce training in the DC-3 may be a good financial move.

Thoughts?
 
Yes, go get some time in a smaller tailwheel first so you don't waste DC-3 time learning the very basics.
 
warthog1984 said:
Tailwheels of any size and "stable" do not belong together. Learn in something cheaper and smaller beforehand.
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The Beech 18 is a perfect lady from the time you lock the tail wheel to the time you unlock the tail wheel. Once you unlock the tailwheel though she's like a drunken whore.:lol:

But yeah, it's good to understand how to do a wheel landing and what they are about before getting in big expensive planes. You'll waste at least half an hour.
 
Henning said:
The Beech 18 is a perfect lady from the time you lock the tail wheel to the time you unlock the tail wheel. Once you unlock the tailwheel though she's like a drunken whore.:lol
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I literally laughed out loud!
 
Henning said:
You laugh even harder learning to taxi it since it has a free castering Tailwheel, not even a spring detent.
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I guess I'll learn all that tailwheel jargon should I opt to do it.
 
I know free catering..... Just unfamiliar with locks and detente.
 
Kritchlow said:
I know free catering..... Just unfamiliar with locks and detente.
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If you look at the tailwheel on a smaller plane with a steerable tailwheel, you'll notice it takes several pounds of sideways pressure before it will 'pop' and rotate in the caster bearing. With a locking tail wheel, you have a spring loaded pin above the caster bearing that will drop through two holes when it's aligned straight down the runway, and there's a cable on it to the cockpit. As you turn to line up on the runway, you release the pull lever and when the holes/tubes line up the pin drops in and locks it. As you get ready to turn off the runway, you unlock it again for taxi. The detent system locks and unlocks itself. The locking gives far greater resistance to a ground loop.
 
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Henning said:
If you look at the tailwheel on a smaller plane with a steerable tailwheel, you'll notice it takes several pounds of sideways pressure before it will 'pop' and rotate in the caster bearing. With a locking tail wheel, you have a spring loaded pin above the caster bearing that will drop through two holes when it's aligned straight down the runway, and there's a cable on it to the cockpit. As you turn to line up on the runway, you release the pull lever and when the holes/tubes line up the pin drops in and locks it. As you get ready to turn off the runway, you unlock it again for taxi. The detent locks and unlocks itself.
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I understand what your saying... But reading it pretty much establishes I should get some primary tailwheel instruction before tackling a type rating.
 
Kritchlow said:
I understand what your saying... But reading it pretty much establishes I should get some primary tailwheel instruction before tackling a type rating.
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:thumbsup: Exactly, don't waste DC-3 money learning basics.
 
Well, in my experience, there are not similarities of "tailwheel basics" in the DC-3.
It handles nothing like the Twin Beech. Yeah, you better have a darn good handle on twitchy light tailwheels before tackling her .
But not the old Goony Bird. She's not twichy. Slow, deliberate, directional control primarily with engines since rudder pressures are so heavy. Nothing like a light single.
A light single tailwheel endorsement would be great for you or anyone who flies any light plane, but it won't significantly reduce DC-3 time.
 
nosehair said:
A light single tailwheel endorsement would be great for you or anyone who flies any light plane, but it won't significantly reduce DC-3 time.
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If all you are going for is a 1 hour flight or even an SIC type, you are correct, it won't reduce your time.

But, I think you will be able to enjoy your time in the -3 better by having some prior tailwheel experience. I know I did. It does handle differently than say a cub or 170, but the basic TW principles still apply.

The biggest difference between the DC-3 and a small single engine taildragger is that in the -3 you have to anticipate all your rudder movements much more. If you get reactionary with your rudder inputs, you are in for a fight. In something like a 170, you can go from from full left rudder to full right with a flick of your ankles. Not so with the -3. That rudder is HEAVY, so you are much better off staying ahead of the airplane.

The principles are the same, but where you get into trouble in the -3 is getting behind the airplane and needing large deflections.
 
nosehair said:
Well, in my experience, there are not similarities of "tailwheel basics" in the DC-3.
It handles nothing like the Twin Beech. Yeah, you better have a darn good handle on twitchy light tailwheels before tackling her .
But not the old Goony Bird. She's not twichy. Slow, deliberate, directional control primarily with engines since rudder pressures are so heavy. Nothing like a light single.
A light single tailwheel endorsement would be great for you or anyone who flies any light plane, but it won't significantly reduce DC-3 time.
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And this is exactly what I've heard from the folks on the other side of the coin..

I don't have a need for a light airplane tailwheel endirsement, so I don't really want to waste time and money on that for no reason.
I think you're saying it makes people a better pilot in general, but in all honesty I haven't flown a light single engine airplane in over 20 years.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If all you are going for is a 1 hour flight or even an SIC type, you are correct, it won't reduce your time.

But, I think you will be able to enjoy your time in the -3 better by having some prior tailwheel experience. I know I did. It does handle differently than say a cub or 170, but the basic TW principles still apply.

The biggest difference between the DC-3 and a small single engine taildragger is that in the -3 you have to anticipate all your rudder movements much more. If you get reactionary with your rudder inputs, you are in for a fight. In something like a 170, you can go from from full left rudder to full right with a flick of your ankles. Not so with the -3. That rudder is HEAVY, so you are much better off staying ahead of the airplane.

The principles are the same, but where you get into trouble in the -3 is getting behind the airplane and needing large deflections.
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More good info... I knew I came to the right place to ask!
Do you have the DC-3 type?
 
Kritchlow said:
More good info... I knew I came to the right place to ask!
Do you have the DC-3 type?
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I have the SIC type and have flown a couple different 3s (one with the P&W 1830s and the other with Wright -1820s).

One of these days I am hoping to complete my PIC type before they are all gone.
 
Wow, zero tailwheel to a DC3 type!!

Yeah, you might want to learn to fly tailwheel first ;)
 
Some years ago, a mechanic I knew was working on an aircraft in his shop at the airport. He was well known and respected. F.A.A. Type appeared and found several things to write up about his shop, paper work etc. Left telling him to get with it! Several days later, this same FAA type asked the pilot of the DC3 they were in, if he might take it off. (He was not rated in a DC3) The DC 3 belonged to the FAA. The pilot stood in the doorway while this intrepid fellow started down the runway , eventually losing control and finally going off the runway, down over an embankment totaling the aircraft and seriously injuring the rated pilot standing in the door way. ( he forgot to lock the tail wheel) this occurred at Dubois, Penna. Can anyone find the report? I tried and failed.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Some years ago, a mechanic I knew was working on an aircraft in his shop at the airport. He was well known and respected. F.A.A. Type appeared and found several things to write up about his shop, paper work etc. Left telling him to get with it! Several days later, this same FAA type asked the pilot of the DC3 they were in, if he might take it off. (He was not rated in a DC3) The DC 3 belonged to the FAA. The pilot stood in the doorway while this intrepid fellow started down the runway , eventually losing control and finally going off the runway, down over an embankment totaling the aircraft and seriously injuring the rated pilot standing in the door way. ( he forgot to lock the tail wheel) this occurred at Dubois, Penna. Can anyone find the report? I tried and failed.
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http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR75-11.pdf
 
Yes! That's the one. Not to mention the fuel burn practicing touch and goes plus full stops in a DC3!
 
I'd say the best way to shorten your DC3 learning curve would be to get some beech18 time first. You're going to do a lot of playing with differential power and the twin beech is a good teacher.
 
JHW said:
I'd say the best way to shorten your DC3 learning curve would be to get some beech18 time first. You're going to do a lot of playing with differential power and the twin beech is a good teacher.
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But... How easy is it to find a BE18 ? And, if I do find one, is the price differential between the 18 and 3 worth it vs doing it all in the 3 ?
 
Kritchlow said:
But... How easy is it to find a BE18 ? And, if I do find one, is the price differential between the 18 and 3 worth it vs doing it all in the 3 ?
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If you do your training with Dan Gryder near Atlanta, he has both.

Otherwise, go to Taigh Raimey (the Master Yoda of Beech 18s) in California for the Twin Beech training and then go with your DC-3 outfit of choice.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you do your training with Dan Gryder near Atlanta, he has both.

Otherwise, go to Taigh Raimey (the Master Yoda of Beech 18s) in California for the Twin Beech training and then go with your DC-3 outfit of choice.
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Thank you for that info... That will come in handy!
 
Kritchlow said:
But... How easy is it to find a BE18 ? And, if I do find one, is the price differential between the 18 and 3 worth it vs doing it all in the 3 ?
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A DC-3 will typically run between $1500-$2000/hr.

I think Taigh charges $600 an hour for the Twin Beech last I checked.
 
nosehair said:
Well, in my experience, there are not similarities of "tailwheel basics" in the DC-3.
It handles nothing like the Twin Beech. Yeah, you better have a darn good handle on twitchy light tailwheels before tackling her .
But not the old Goony Bird. She's not twichy. Slow, deliberate, directional control primarily with engines since rudder pressures are so heavy. Nothing like a light single.
A light single tailwheel endorsement would be great for you or anyone who flies any light plane, but it won't significantly reduce DC-3 time.
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:confused::confused::confused: The object is not to reduce time, most of these programs are 'set rate' with so many hours. The object is to maximize your use and enjoyment of the time and get a more fulfilling experience. If you already know the basics, and the basics don't change with size, just how you go about managing them does.
 
Henning said:
The object is not to reduce time,
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The OP specifically asked for training tips to reduce DC-3 time.
If you already know the basics, and the basics don't change with size, just how you go about managing them does.
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Actually, these basics do. Actually, there are "negative transfer" issues regarding little light airplanes you fly with your fingers and wrists and ankles and toes, when the -3 takes biceps and thighs. A whole new set of muscles to train.
Additionally, the OP later said he has not been in a light plane in 20 years.
That alone would set him back a few hours, never mind the tailwheel.
 
nosehair said:
Actually, these basics do. Actually, there are "negative transfer" issues regarding little light airplanes you fly with your fingers and wrists and ankles and toes, when the -3 takes biceps and thighs. A whole new set of muscles to train.
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BS.

The only time you really need strong biceps and thighs is taxiing the Gooney.

Aside from that you fly it like any other piston airplane.

On takeoff and landing, muscles will not help you like anticipation can and having a little previous tailwheel experience is helpful here.

Let's not forget that women were flying these airplanes back in WWII.
 
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For the OP, if you really want to know what it is like to fly a DC-3, go rent a U-Haul 26' Jumbo Mover and drive it around a bit. That is pretty much what it feels like.....but a whole lot prettier.
 
Fearless Tower said:
BS.

The only time you really need strong biceps and thighs is taxiing the Gooney.

Aside from that you fly it like any other piston airplane.

On takeoff and landing, muscles will not help you like anticipation can and having a little previous tailwheel experience is helpful here.

Let's not forget that women were flying these airplanes back in WWII.
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By all means let's not forget that lots and lots of women flew them in WW2. In fact it was one of the more docile aircraft they flew daily. They flew everything we had, P51, P38, B17, try taxing that!, B24, ad nauseum. Before they were allowed to fly any of them, first they had to fly a cub, then a Stearman, then a t6 or a combination of these, just like the cadets. They did very well.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
By all means let's not forget that lots and lots of women flew them in WW2. In fact it was one of the more docile aircraft they flew daily. They flew everything we had, P51, P38, B17, try taxing that!, B24, ad nauseum. Before they were allowed to fly any of them, first they had to fly a cub, then a Stearman, then a t6 or a combination of these, just like the cadets. They did very well.
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My father served in the Army Air Force on a C-47 (crew chief) in the European theater of WW2. This thread brings back fond memories of some of the great stories he shared. :) RIP, dad.
 
nosehair said:
The OP specifically asked for training tips to reduce DC-3 time.
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Henning was pointing to the fact most DC-3 type rating outfits come with a set number of hours which the majority of people complete the course in. So why short yourself of hours you already paid for?
 
Here is the thing. I can remember when I was doing my tailwheel training in a 170 and the first time I had it up on two wheels doing high speed taxis, I was all over the place. Pretty humbling.

I can't say what it would be to do it for the 1st time in a DC-3, but I can say that the same conventional gear principles that apply to a cub or 170 apply to the DC-3 as well. There are some technique differences, but the principles are the same.

I do remember a Dick Karl article where he got to fly a DC-3 with no previous TW experience and the description of his experience on the takeoff roll in the Gooney was very similar to my first time in the 170. Take that for what its worth. It can certainly be done, but I honestly think you will enjoy your DC-3 experience much more if you have had some previous TW time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
BS.

The only time you really need strong biceps and thighs is taxiing the Gooney.

Aside from that you fly it like any other piston airplane.

On takeoff and landing, muscles will not help you like anticipation can and having a little previous tailwheel experience is helpful here.

Let's not forget that women were flying these airplanes back in WWII.
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And some fine, small, women as well. I saw pictures of Betty Faux back in those days and she was downright hot. Hell, she was in her late 60s or early 70s when she gave me my check rides and she still looked good enough to tap.:lol: She had time in a lot of the WWII planes in her log book.

Flying is about what you have in your head, not your hands.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
By all means let's not forget that lots and lots of women flew them in WW2. In fact it was one of the more docile aircraft they flew daily. They flew everything we had, P51, P38, B17, try taxing that!, B24, ad nauseum. Before they were allowed to fly any of them, first they had to fly a cub, then a Stearman, then a t6 or a combination of these, just like the cadets. They did very well.
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You can actually taxi a B-17 backwards.
 
nosehair said:
The OP specifically asked for training tips to reduce DC-3 time
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That's not possible, nor would it be a good value. Why would you short yourself on time you already paid for.:dunno:

I never did a take off or landing in a -3 but got some stick time in cruise. I did not need any particularly great muscle to fly it. It was a bit slow and lumbering to respond to inputs, but they required not greater force really than a PA-32 and probably less than a Mooney.
 
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